Past Drivers Who Deserved A Better Shot

[Emmcee 0]

Who springs to mind when you think about it? Jean Alesi is one for me, I know he did what mark webber did and chose a team when the other option he had available went on to win titles but in saying that IMO he always drove better than expected. Same as Ralf Schumacher until his Toyota days, who else can you think of that fits into this conversation?

[Delivery_Driver 0]

Ralf Schumacher? He won Grand prixs, ummmm for me Olivier Panis, he was lighting quick in 97, 3rd in the title chase before his accident, in the Prost, he was a talent that went begging, he beat David Coulthard to the F3000 title in 1993,Jos Verstappen springs to mind as another really fast aggressive driver who deserved better, alessandro Nannini, and pierluigi martini, and if only JV went to Mclaren in 2001 n replaced DC, I think that would have been fascinating, but No.1 on my list is Olivier Panis by a mile

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah I agree on panis but he seemed to loose that speed once he came back, he wasnt his old self that accident might have made him "respect" life a tad bit more. Verstappen I don't really agree on, he had the best car in his debut season and failed to do anything with it while his teammate, Schumi, won 8 races and the title. Villeneuve IMO was over rated, he won the title in the best car and couldn't do anything when he didnt have the best car. Heinz-Harald Frentzen did a better job in 98 IMO reguardless of the points situation. Nannini was a waste of talent in the sense his career was cut short due to that horrific helicopter injury, was definatly going to do well.

[spiral.out 0]

Kimi Raikkonen, if McLaren had delivered a more reliable car he would be a 3 x or more world champion.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I too think JV got the short end of the stick. He had the talent. Funny how alot of folk are applauding Alonso for attempting to build up a team, and in this case an already established iconic team who have fallen behind. JV did it with BAR who had bought out Tyrrell. HUGE differance and easier by a long shot in Alonso's case. Maybe it was JV's manager, I don't know, but he had many reasons to leave BAR and head back to a proper team, but chose to stick it out. It didn't work out for him in the end. Yet JV to this day is vilified as only caring about money, and ridiculed because the BAR experiment didn't work. That being the case, will these same people then use this warped logic to turn on their own beloved Emporer with No Clothes? Somehow I doubt it. There will be justification upon justification as to why Alonso managed to get more out of the car than possible, and how it's not, nor will it ever be his bad choices that left him in that situation. It's not as though Alonso is driving for free now is it. He's rumoured to be the highest paid driver, probably now only eclipsed by Hamilton. I bring all this up, not because I have an interest to talk about Alonso necessarily, but in reference to JV and how the hypocrisy still exists when people like to right him off.

WebRic, in your eagerness to write off JV, you also wrote off Hill and pretty much most of the previous WDC in the past 10-15 years. The best drivers generally end up in the best teams, who quite often have the best cars. JV in his rookie year, only narrowly lost out to Hill, then the next year won it. Why are you not rubbishing Hill then, and instead only focus on JV? If anything JV did better than Hill, since Hill was already an established driver. JV was the rookie, who almost won it, and then won it the next year. Pretty good for an Champ Car Champion and Indy 500 Winner. I simply love how you selectively trash a driver. NO driver would have won anything in the BAR so your point that JV didn't do anything in a not so great car is very much horse blinders on type of stuff.

Spiral, I look back on 2003 and 2005 with sadness in relation to Kimi. More so for 2005 though. But his 2003 efforts were incredible considering he was up against the Schu in his prime and all the while driving a car that was over a year old. We can't change the past, but 2005 really was Kimi's, and I didn't shed a tear when he left McLaren.

I'd like to mention JPM. Had Ron not been such a hard a##, I'd like to think he'd still be in F1. He had the talent, speed and persona, and many of his fans still miss him in F1.

[Emmcee 0]

I also to think hill was overrated IMO, never had the raw pace like Schumi or hakkinen and made stupid mistakes never more stupid than in 1995. No to mention getting snashed by frentzen in 99. I agree with kimi though, if Mclaren could have made cars in the early years for him when he was at his best, it would have been a different story. JV got beaten by button and out paced by Massa, do you forget that? Also heidfeld and was dropped for kubica. Can't be that good if your dropped for another driver. JV was good in champcars but 11 wins in what 10 years and all of them coming in a 2yr period when have the ultimate car, doesn't make him that good IMO. But you seem to be getting your kick of trashing me ATM so no matter what I say will spark you up.

Edit- I just looked at my post regarding JV and I wrote about two lines on him using him as an example and yet you choose to use those two lines to base your whole argument, what is it mate? Is it that you simply don't like me? I get this feeling you find any chance you can to have a dig at me if I say anything remotely about your favourite drivers that offend you. Grow up mate, everyone is entitled to an opinion weather there right or wrong that's not for YOU to decide, that's what an opinion is.

[jackgarrett 0]

all of the GP2 champions that never got a chance in F1

[Emmcee 0]

all of the GP2 champions that never got a chance in F1

That's a fair call.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Alesi had his shot, if he dominated Berger in their 100-odd years together he would've been snapped up and won more races.

Koolmonkey I've never seen anyone applaud Alonso for trying to build up a team. And people ridicule JV for the rubbish that comes out of his mouth, not for his BAR venture! Pollock is the pillock there.

Who deserved a better shot? Alex Wurz.

[Emmcee 0]

Well that's exactly right, pollock was the one who ruined bar. I remember he and villeneuve were very cozy in the beginning and it all turned to sh!7 over bogus contract negotiations and that clown Richards from prodrive. Richards and pollack clashed from day one that's why they had the split livery on the cars. They initially wanted to run two different scheme one for each car as pollock wanted his lucky strike and Richards his triple 5 from Subaru wrc. Alex wurz? No thanks, he was good in his short stint as Berger's replacement in 97 and did well in 98 but after that, that was it from he, consistantly outpaced by fisi. Would have likes to see Justin Wilson stay on longer at Jaguar and I Beleive Jan Magnussen deserves another go. He did quite well last year IMO.

[Delivery_Driver 0]

Alexander Wurz was too tall to be a Grand Prix driver n was very uncomfortable in the 99 n 00 Benettons, a very smart n logical driver, but not one of the most naturally gifted in my opinion, JV did stick it out with BAR for too long, but they had Honda engines at the time n BAR did look like a team on the up, but there was talk of Jacques going to Mclaren for 2001 alongside Mika Hakkinen, I just would have loved to have seen him get one more shot at a good team, n in 06, when teamed up with Heidfeld, I think he out qualified Nick 7-5, so he did still have the speed, but clashed too much with the senior management n it didn't work out, jos Verstappen in 95, got that Simtek in places it shouldn't have been, n in 2000 he still proved how quick he was, Jos the Boss

[Emmcee 0]

2000 that's arrows was a bloody fast car.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Alesi had his shot, if he dominated Berger in their 100-odd years together he would've been snapped up and won more races.

Koolmonkey I've never seen anyone applaud Alonso for trying to build up a team. And people ridicule JV for the rubbish that comes out of his mouth, not for his BAR venture! Pollock is the pillock there.

Who deserved a better shot? Alex Wurz.

Strange, I've seen lots of peeps defend and cheer Alonso for his "gutsy" move in trying to build up McLaren. IDK, maybe it's been all the hot air coming from Flav lately. Sure seems like he's trying to re-write history for his client. Alonso had nowhere else to go, so I guess they are trying to put a PR spin on it and at the same time, trying to cut down Ferrari as pretend they are not a better team this year.

Agreed, JV did say alot of Rubbish, but I've seen years worth of crap being hurled at JV, mostly along the lines of ridicule that he was no good because his BAR venture proved it. Pollock was a good business man, but not a great Team Principal. Having said that, he helped form BAR so you can't knock him too much for that. BAR > Honda > Brawn > Merc. Not bad really. What did Pollock do to make people hate on him so? He seemed like a non douche type of guy to me.

Thinking back, I think Bourdais deserved better. Addmitedly, he wasn't that great coming into F1, but I'd argue STR was a toxic team at that point too. They have basically cut all their drivers to the point they have all fallen out of F1 accept for Vettel, Ricci and Kvyat. And I don't see Kvyat at RBR for a long period of time. I don't know why, I just don't feel it I guess.

Well that's exactly right, pollock was the one who ruined bar. I remember he and villeneuve were very cozy in the beginning and it all turned to sh!7 over bogus contract negotiations and that clown Richards from prodrive. Richards and pollack clashed from day one that's why they had the split livery on the cars. They initially wanted to run two different scheme one for each car as pollock wanted his lucky strike and Richards his triple 5 from Subaru wrc. Alex wurz? No thanks, he was good in his short stint as Berger's replacement in 97 and did well in 98 but after that, that was it from he, consistantly outpaced by fisi. Would have likes to see Justin Wilson stay on longer at Jaguar and I Beleive Jan Magnussen deserves another go. He did quite well last year IMO.

As I asked Jem, it's been awhile since the BAR days. How did Pollock ruin that team, other than not having the experience to be a team principal? As for Richards, I loathe that guy. He did far more damage to that team than anyone else. I actually didn't mind the idea of having a different livery for each car, but the rules prevented it I recall, thus why they went with the split design. But you can't go past the Earth Dream as being the worst. By then both Pollock and Richards were gone.

I would like to see Jan get another shot as well, but his time might have come and gone. Such is the cut throat nature of F1. It doesn't matter how many GP2 drivers didnt' get their chance. GP2 doesn't have a great track record for feeding in F1 drivers who stick around. I would however like to see a "stock" team. By that I mean a team owned by Bernie, F1 or something like that. And it's purpose is to give the winner of GP2 and whatever else the next best series is, a seat for one year. That way, the feeder series actually then mean something. But it would most likely do more harm than good. Because this "stock" team would most likely suck of the nature of Caterham or Manor. And what good is that for a driver's hopes and dreams.

Alexander Wurz was too tall to be a Grand Prix driver n was very uncomfortable in the 99 n 00 Benettons, a very smart n logical driver, but not one of the most naturally gifted in my opinion, JV did stick it out with BAR for too long, but they had Honda engines at the time n BAR did look like a team on the up, but there was talk of Jacques going to Mclaren for 2001 alongside Mika Hakkinen, I just would have loved to have seen him get one more shot at a good team, n in 06, when teamed up with Heidfeld, I think he out qualified Nick 7-5, so he did still have the speed, but clashed too much with the senior management n it didn't work out, jos Verstappen in 95, got that Simtek in places it shouldn't have been, n in 2000 he still proved how quick he was, Jos the Boss

Yeah I would have loved to have seen JV at McLaren, or at least in with a better team than BAR. To his credit he did show them some loyalty, but they ended up booting him which has always left a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't think his Sauber stint was that bad to be honest. And I certainly do not hold his Renault performances against him. Just like no fan should ever hold Fisi's Ferrari races against him either. Maybe in the days of unlimited testing, but not now.

[Emmcee 0]

Strange, I've seen lots of peeps defend and cheer Alonso for his "gutsy" move in trying to build up McLaren. IDK, maybe it's been all the hot air coming from Flav lately. Sure seems like he's trying to re-write history for his client. Alonso had nowhere else to go, so I guess they are trying to put a PR spin on it and at the same time, trying to cut down Ferrari as pretend they are not a better team this year.

Agreed, JV did say alot of Rubbish, but I've seen years worth of crap being hurled at JV, mostly along the lines of ridicule that he was no good because his BAR venture proved it. Pollock was a good business man, but not a great Team Principal. Having said that, he helped form BAR so you can't knock him too much for that. BAR > Honda > Brawn > Merc. Not bad really. What did Pollock do to make people hate on him so? He seemed like a non douche type of guy to me.

Thinking back, I think Bourdais deserved better. Addmitedly, he wasn't that great coming into F1, but I'd argue STR was a toxic team at that point too. They have basically cut all their drivers to the point they have all fallen out of F1 accept for Vettel, Ricci and Kvyat. And I don't see Kvyat at RBR for a long period of time. I don't know why, I just don't feel it I guess.

As I asked Jem, it's been awhile since the BAR days. How did Pollock ruin that team, other than not having the experience to be a team principal? As for Richards, I loathe that guy. He did far more damage to that team than anyone else. I actually didn't mind the idea of having a different livery for each car, but the rules prevented it I recall, thus why they went with the split design. But you can't go past the Earth Dream as being the worst. By then both Pollock and Richards were gone.

I would like to see Jan get another shot as well, but his time might have come and gone. Such is the cut throat nature of F1. It doesn't matter how many GP2 drivers didnt' get their chance. GP2 doesn't have a great track record for feeding in F1 drivers who stick around. I would however like to see a "stock" team. By that I mean a team owned by Bernie, F1 or something like that. And it's purpose is to give the winner of GP2 and whatever else the next best series is, a seat for one year. That way, the feeder series actually then mean something. But it would most likely do more harm than good. Because this "stock" team would most likely suck of the nature of Caterham or Manor. And what good is that for a driver's hopes and dreams.

Yeah I would have loved to have seen JV at McLaren, or at least in with a better team than BAR. To his credit he did show them some loyalty, but they ended up booting him which has always left a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't think his Sauber stint was that bad to be honest. And I certainly do not hold his Renault performances against him. Just like no fan should ever hold Fisi's Ferrari races against him either. Maybe in the days of unlimited testing, but not now.

Now that I would have loved to have seen also, JV teamed with Mika who IMO i think was one of the fastest drivers ever based on pure speed but his friendship with dc wouldn't allow that to happen as I personally Beleive the environment back at Mclaren then would have been perfect as both drivers respected each other immensely and were good friends also. As for pollock he became quite disruptive in the team do to his "my way or highway" approach, it was different at first as people were listening to his so called expierence but once they noticed it wasn't getting them anywhere, he became quite disruptive and it was the start of bar's demise. Iam not sure if I remember this correctly but I think Honda were so fed up with him that they were going to leave the sport of the couldn't by bar outright.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Honda left anyway in the end. People get replaced or fired, teams don't quit F1 because they can't deal with someone in their own team or partnerships. RBR and Renault aren't bros at the moment, but if they ever left F1 it would be because they were not getting the results they wanted to achieve, not because Marko was being a dork. That's how I saw Honda when they left. They left in shame.

[spiral.out 0]

Honda left anyway in the end. People get replaced or fired, teams don't quit F1 because they can't deal with someone in their own team or partnerships. RBR and Renault aren't bros at the moment, but if they ever left F1 it would be because they were not getting the results they wanted to achieve, not because Marko was being a dork. That's how I saw Honda when they left. They left in shame.

They left the last time after developing the fastest car on the grid and handing Button a Vettel style world championshp lol.

[Emmcee 0]

Honda left anyway in the end. People get replaced or fired, teams don't quit F1 because they can't deal with someone in their own team or partnerships. RBR and Renault aren't bros at the moment, but if they ever left F1 it would be because they were not getting the results they wanted to achieve, not because Marko was being a dork. That's how I saw Honda when they left. They left in shame.

Honda left due to the Global financial crisis and believes the money they spent on f1 could be used elsewhere to benifit the company. That's there main reason they left.

[Emmcee 0]

They left the last time after developing the fastest car on the grid and handing Button a Vettel style world championshp lol.

They took two years to develop that car and when they left brawn brought the cars and the whole team for 1 British pound, yes 1 pound but had no engine supplier. The Mercedes engine brawn lines up (although the car wasnt designed for it) worked wonders.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I know, but they didn't know how good the car was. As much as I admire Brawn, F1 needed Honda to have won the WDC in 2009.

They had sunk so much money into that endeavor, the GFC was still hurting badly and by then they pulled out. I bet you they were the most shocked to see how good the Brawn was though. Having said that, would Brawn/Honda have won, if they didn't have a Merc engine? We'll never know. But I suspect maybe not. Merc had a very powerful engine that was up on most in HP.

[Emmcee 0]

I know, but they didn't know how good the car was. As much as I admire Brawn, F1 needed Honda to have won the WDC in 2009.

They had sunk so much money into that endeavor, the GFC was still hurting badly and by then they pulled out. I bet you they were the most shocked to see how good the Brawn was though. Having said that, would Brawn/Honda have won, if they didn't have a Merc engine? We'll never know. But I suspect maybe not. Merc had a very powerful engine that was up on most in HP.

I think Honda still would have won tbh, there v10 had some serious donk to. Might not have been AS dominant but I still think they would have won, the chassis was so much better than anyone else's also.

[KoolMonkey 0]

It was better for half of the year. 1 or 2 more races, Vettel would have won in 2009 as well. RBR finishes strongly.

I'm not convinced Honda had a great engine. But like many things, we'll never know how it could have turned out.

[Emmcee 0]

Well that's true, but one thing we did know is that the chassis was incredible. Ugly looking cars but with the white a Fluro yellow, especially the wheel covers, yuk!

[Jem of the Shire 0]

No reason for McLaren to take on JV in '01, DC had just had a much improved season in '00 and then in '01 stepped up again to be Schu's most consistent challenger.

[Emmcee 0]

No reason for McLaren to take on JV in '01, DC had just had a much improved season in '00 and then in '01 stepped up again to be Schu's most consistent challenger.

This is true also, but Mclaren had a good thing going with Mika a dc so there was no need to change. I would have loved Mika to make a comeback in 2006 like he was planning as he originally had a sebaticle that turned into retirement, there is footage of Mika testing a Mclaren in 2006 or was it 2007? Can't remember.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Wasn't the rumour that he was going to make a comeback with BAR?