F1 Implodes

[Insider 0]

Renault's decision to stay or go will have a massive effect on the future of F1. Without a competitive engine, Red Bull are out. They won't get one from Mercedes for sure and a customer Ferrari unit won't do the trick either. VW/Audi have said 'no'. I imagine they have spoken to Toyota and even BMW too. Could Cosworth deliver a competitive hybrid with virtually zero testing time? Of course not. Honda are clearly sticking to their original 4-year plan and may have a front row car by 2017/18. We are looking at Mercedes v. Ferrari followed by their customers, [sauber, Williams, Force India and Manor] with perhaps Renault in the mix too. Lotus is in limbo and may not survive. Worst case scenario - a 12 car grid? Is it really worth it? Bernie won't be making any money for sure. As Dylan said, 'Could this really be the end?'

[KoolMonkey 0]

This is Sparta! F1... This is madness!

I don't want to see Renault go, but I can totally understand RBR's frustration with them. They were promised alot more than what Renault delivered. And to think they have not even used any tokens yet! WHY? Are they saving them for something perhaps? Cashing in all unused tokens for extra ice creams!? Who knows. I've seen alot of idiots/trolls ripping in RBR over how they feel about Renault. But the truth is Renault are a supplier and they havn't delivered. And good businesses do not keep suppliers that don't deliver forever. They are also sore because they feel they didn't get the credit they deserved when RBR were winning. So why then did they allow the Infiniti name to be on the cars? It's so stupid it's funny. Don't pust someone elses name even if you own it, on a car if you want the recognition. Anyhoo. Lotus need to fold like a cheap suit. I'm sick to death of heaing about them, how they are struggling, a new buyer is on the scene to take over the team. I hear Mansoor has some backers. Lots of them, next week even. They are going to pay by cheque! Win win. Not like those shady guys from Quantum...

If Lotus are bought out by Renault, I hope they clean house. Bye bye Permaine, everyone at the top needs to go. Keep the engineers and start fresh. F1 needs Renault to stick around, but they are French and get offended easily. So no one would be surprised if they took their baguettes and left on their bicycles.

I wish we still had BMW and Toyota. And espeically Cosworth as well.

This will be regarded as one of the worst periods of F1 history. The least uncompetitive, and quite possibly the most boring.

I don't care if Merc don't built V8s anymore. These aren't passenger cars, this is the TOP tier of motorsport. Of so we are told. V6 Hybrid Turbos have killed this sport. And I know full well Renault threatened to walk if they didn't bring them into the sport. Good example of irony.

Forcing engines to last as long as they do, longevity has sucked the soul out of our sport. Engines are 10x more expensive now than they used to be. Fuel restrictions... the whole thing is an utter joke.

I want Turbos in F1, but in this instance the rules have shown this set of regs to be an utter farce and failure. We need to go back to more open regs. V8s, V10s, non turbos, no ERS/KERS. No stupid exhaust pipe restrictions. Open it up to various manufacturers like Le Mans.

Imagine having VW/Audi/Porsche in the sport. Toyota back again, GM/Chevrolet, Ford, Nissan proper and not just Renault. Imagine opening up the tender process for new teams and removing the ridiculous bond they have to pay just to get on the grid. Let 50 cars (even single teams) turn up for certain big race weekends. The types like Austin etc., where they have tons of pit boxes not just on pitstraight, but in the secondary areas. Then let them qualify, and whomever is the top 26-30 can race that weekend. It works in IndyCar, it can work in F1. I would not have a problem is we saw some teams only get to race a few times a year. At least it gives all the drivers a real chance of getting a seat for a weekend, espeically the 2nd tier of drivers who are test drivers, or who could only get enough sponsorship for 1 year, or even less in a small team.

I blame Charlie Whiting for a ton of this mess. Mainly when it comes to the rules and regs after the fact, but also for other things like no testing. I blame the teams in a way, but I know they can only operate under certain conditions. They will always do what they think benefits them. That's part of the problem too.

I don't blame Bernie. He said we were going to hate the sound of V6s, he was right. He's said the teams need to have some or all of their decision making powers removed. I agree. F1 needs to be run like an autocracy, not a democracy, because we are seeing this rule by committee bulls##t playing out in all the horror. I'd rather Bernie or Max take full proper control and see them fail, than this crap we have been saddled with.

The only thing worse than watching races right now, is knowing that NOTHING will change next year. 2017 apparently is the soonest we will see some proper changes. But who really is happy we have races so predictable that it's more entertaining to turn the channel now than to keep watching the race. For real. Like those dating naked shows for instance lol. At least they don't pretend.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Agreed. In fact, I might just place a massive wager on Hamilton winning the 2016 title already, cos it's a re-run of 2015. Same cars, same drivers, same yawns. 2016 is really just a stop-gap until we see what 2017 & onwards is going to be like. But I'll bet that we'll all be b*tching about it in 2017 too!

[Emmcee 0]

I don't know, I think Ferrari will genuinely be able to fight with merc at majority of the races next year and I think Ferrari might just hanging on to see just how much of an improvement the new engine will be before committing to supplying red bull. Just my opinion, as you look at Mercedes, they said before monza that they would have no problems supplying red bull, that's until they saw how good the new engine will be next year as Lewis was running some sort of 2016 spec merc engine that weekend and now are saying they will no way supply redbull and toto was pretty firm on that.

[Insider 0]

This is Sparta! F1... This is madness!

I don't want to see Renault go, but I can totally understand RBR's frustration with them. They were promised alot more than what Renault delivered. And to think they have not even used any tokens yet! WHY? Are they saving them for something perhaps? Cashing in all unused tokens for extra ice creams!? Who knows. I've seen alot of idiots/trolls ripping in RBR over how they feel about Renault. But the truth is Renault are a supplier and they havn't delivered. And good businesses do not keep suppliers that don't deliver forever. They are also sore because they feel they didn't get the credit they deserved when RBR were winning. So why then did they allow the Infiniti name to be on the cars? It's so stupid it's funny. Don't pust someone elses name even if you own it, on a car if you want the recognition. Anyhoo. Lotus need to fold like a cheap suit. I'm sick to death of heaing about them, how they are struggling, a new buyer is on the scene to take over the team. I hear Mansoor has some backers. Lots of them, next week even. They are going to pay by cheque! Win win. Not like those shady guys from Quantum...

If Lotus are bought out by Renault, I hope they clean house. Bye bye Permaine, everyone at the top needs to go. Keep the engineers and start fresh. F1 needs Renault to stick around, but they are French and get offended easily. So no one would be surprised if they took their baguettes and left on their bicycles.

I wish we still had BMW and Toyota. And espeically Cosworth as well.

This will be regarded as one of the worst periods of F1 history. The least uncompetitive, and quite possibly the most boring.

I don't care if Merc don't built V8s anymore. These aren't passenger cars, this is the TOP tier of motorsport. Of so we are told. V6 Hybrid Turbos have killed this sport. And I know full well Renault threatened to walk if they didn't bring them into the sport. Good example of irony.

Forcing engines to last as long as they do, longevity has sucked the soul out of our sport. Engines are 10x more expensive now than they used to be. Fuel restrictions... the whole thing is an utter joke.

I want Turbos in F1, but in this instance the rules have shown this set of regs to be an utter farce and failure. We need to go back to more open regs. V8s, V10s, non turbos, no ERS/KERS. No stupid exhaust pipe restrictions. Open it up to various manufacturers like Le Mans.

Imagine having VW/Audi/Porsche in the sport. Toyota back again, GM/Chevrolet, Ford, Nissan proper and not just Renault. Imagine opening up the tender process for new teams and removing the ridiculous bond they have to pay just to get on the grid. Let 50 cars (even single teams) turn up for certain big race weekends. The types like Austin etc., where they have tons of pit boxes not just on pitstraight, but in the secondary areas. Then let them qualify, and whomever is the top 26-30 can race that weekend. It works in IndyCar, it can work in F1. I would not have a problem is we saw some teams only get to race a few times a year. At least it gives all the drivers a real chance of getting a seat for a weekend, espeically the 2nd tier of drivers who are test drivers, or who could only get enough sponsorship for 1 year, or even less in a small team.

I blame Charlie Whiting for a ton of this mess. Mainly when it comes to the rules and regs after the fact, but also for other things like no testing. I blame the teams in a way, but I know they can only operate under certain conditions. They will always do what they think benefits them. That's part of the problem too.

I don't blame Bernie. He said we were going to hate the sound of V6s, he was right. He's said the teams need to have some or all of their decision making powers removed. I agree. F1 needs to be run like an autocracy, not a democracy, because we are seeing this rule by committee bulls##t playing out in all the horror. I'd rather Bernie or Max take full proper control and see them fail, than this crap we have been saddled with.

The only thing worse than watching races right now, is knowing that NOTHING will change next year. 2017 apparently is the soonest we will see some proper changes. But who really is happy we have races so predictable that it's more entertaining to turn the channel now than to keep watching the race. For real. Like those dating naked shows for instance lol. At least they don't pretend.

All good stuff there. I hate to tell you this but a cost cap for engine-supply deals to customer teams and a ban on windtunnel testing have been agreed by the members of the Formula 1 Strategy Group today. Unbelievable.

[Insider 0]

Agreed. In fact, I might just place a massive wager on Hamilton winning the 2016 title already, cos it's a re-run of 2015. Same cars, same drivers, same yawns. 2016 is really just a stop-gap until we see what 2017 & onwards is going to be like. But I'll bet that we'll all be b*tching about it in 2017 too!

Nice to see the McHondas in the top 10 on the stock tyre though Jenson went a second behind Nando on the supersofts which was weird.

[Insider 0]

News just in that Lotus have had their case against HMRC adjourned for a week but if they lose, which is the most likely scenario without a Renault deal, they will be toast. Making engines cheaper won't be worth a damn then.

[Insider 0]

Further speculation from the BBC that VW will buy RBR. No one saw that coming but the source is Eddie Jordan. Hmmm.

[Emmcee 0]

What will happen to toro Rosso then? If we loose redbull, we would loose toro Rosso.

[Insider 0]

What will happen to toro Rosso then? If we loose redbull, we would loose toro Rosso.

Well, maybe Ferrari engines for two years while Audi develop a hybrid for them both?

[Emmcee 0]

Why would Ferrari supply toro Rosso and not redbull? Can't be a performance thing as bothe the redbull and toro Rosso are just about on par with each other, in fact I'd actually say the toro Rosso is a slightly better car this year IMO. Audi won't come back to f1, norther will Porsche, there to successful in the lmp/wec championships to really "waste" money and I say that because look at f1 now. Costs teams millions to build these new engines only to have to build new spec ones for 2017 anyway. To much money to invest with the turn around window having a no end in sight feel. Unless they hit the nail on the head from word go, but that's highly unlikely IMO.

[KoolMonkey 0]

All good stuff there. I hate to tell you this but a cost cap for engine-supply deals to customer teams and a ban on windtunnel testing have been agreed by the members of the Formula 1 Strategy Group today. Unbelievable.

Hence my thoughts that teams need to be removed from the decision process. They are only making it worse now, and continue to do so.

If Lotus fold, so be it. We've heard bulls##t from them basically for the past 2-3 years now. They need to get bought out, or go.

VW buying RBR would be great. But I'm not liking the fact F1 is now so controlled a team like RBR, have to sell up because the rules prevent them from attempting to catch up to Merc. This is what is wrong with F1 right here. VW/Audio could dominate or go the way of Honda. And no true F1 fans believes Honda are this bad at the moment. Yes the results show it, but they are better than this. Again I think it's down to not being able to change anything. Restrictions are killing F1.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

From what I've heard (ie Eddie Jordan, so take what you will from that), VW will buy out RBR, with Red Bull being main sponsor. VW could then label the team with any of its brands, Audi is one of many, eg Skoda, Seat, Bentley etc. But the understanding is that they'll badge it Audi. The engine won't actually get lumped in the car until 2018, giving them plenty of time to get it right, and not have a Honda situation. In the meantime, RBR will race with Ferrari engines.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah that's what I've made out of this whole situation also. You might find to that Ferrari will only supply them these engines short term after all, redbull doesn't hang down like it used to.

[KoolMonkey 0]

About as crazy BMW Sauber Ferrari! Audi Red Bull Racing Ferrari. Hmmm. Could Ferrari have them badge the engines as FIATS or Maseratis or something?

I hate this about F1. That a team can't change their name otherwise they forfeit their prize money allowance. Bernie, you wily old git, you suck. I know you read these forums. Change it please!

[Emmcee 0]

No monkey it would probably be Audi redbull Infiniti Nissan nismo formula one team.

[KoolMonkey 0]

/drooool. Nismo! Now we are talking. To have Nissan in the ranks, and then use their Nismo brand would be incredible.

[Emmcee 0]

Hell yeah, imagine if they ditched redbull all together and brought in the famous nismo red,black,silver livery. That would look bloody sick.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Is it that famous? I don't think I've ever seen such a thing in my life. Also remember when 'Jaguar' appeared in 2000, they painted it British Racing Green just like the famous Le Mans cars of yore, and the team was still a huge flop which was just made worse by all the super-hype.

[Emmcee 0]

Hell yea, what I'd give for a nismo tuned skyline.

[Jem of the Shire 0]

I've heard of Nismo but only from teenage years playing Gran Turismo!!

[Emmcee 0]

Does anyone know of any f1 driver who like builds his own road cars if you know what I mean? I know they get given free Ferrari's and what not but if I was an f1 driver with that type of money, I'd get more satisfaction building my own super car than buying one. I know Johnny Herbert used to own a R33 Gtr that had a bit of work done but I dont know of any current drivers who like to build there own cars, does anyone?

[KoolMonkey 0]

Jem, Nismo isn't a known name to non petrol heads basically. I mean everyone has heard of Ferrari and Lamborghinis. Less have heard of Bugatti Veyrons, and I imagine even less have heard about Nissan Skyline GTRs, and the Nissan Nismo brand. Maybe you could compare it to Toyota's TRW brand but that's a poor analogy since TRW has no racing heritage and is plastered on pickup trucks and all sorts. Maybe a better comparison could be with Mercedes AMG brand, but that's still too mainstream. Nismo was never a marketing brand, rather a purely tuning and racing brand that sold upgraded parts for Skylines. Their name was rarely ever directly tied with a road car. That has changed a bit over the years now. There is even a Nissan Juke with a GTR engine in it with some Nismo tie in now I think.

We will never ever see Nismo in F1 sadly. They are too small and F1 would not bring them any benefits I feel. But we have seen them at Le Mans these past couple of years with their experimental Garage 56 entries. And this year with this front wheel drive GTR engine beast. I watched alot of it on their live YouTube channel and it was good action.

Jem, Nismo was never hype because it was a low key kind of affair. It's exploded more over the years now and eBay is flooded with all kinds of things baring the Nismo logo. But in reality they don't actually make that many parts so to speak.

[Emmcee 0]

TRD have massive race heritage back in Japan and its GT series, not to mention make all the tuning parts for Toyota rally cars. Speaking of those Nissan jukes what a joke I rang Nissan wanting a price for when I get my settlement bah what I joke no lie. 600k, why would you? You get the proper Gtr for under 200 and its still 2 secs a lap quicker. The Saudi prince owns 2, 1.2 mill on bloody Nissan jukes. You have to factory order them, you can't walk into Nissan and buy one of the floor like a Gtr.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Opps yeah I meant TRD not TRW. Oh ok I wasn't aware it was actually label assoticated with proper racing hertiage. In my years spent living in the USA it was plasted on pick trucks and all sorts. Just seemed to me to be some watered down label kind of how Subaru have wrung the life out of the WRX STI badge. It used to mean something. It still does, but it's now at least 30% more bogan/redneck.