The Future Of Red Bull/toro Rosso

[rodders47 2]

so tell me guys what do YOU think will happen to Red Bull 2 teams in 2016 ?

Like at the moment there seems to be a team that has no engine, and even though the RB/TR cars are great without a power plant it would be difficult to compete :-)

Also can the current F1 circus afford to loose 4 cars from the list ???

[spiral.out 0]

Don't care. The lack of in-season engine development makes the whole thing a yawn fest anyway. Fastest car in Australia wins. If Redbull dont have fastest car in Australia they may as well not be there anyway.

Hamilton has the honor of not only dominating because he has the fastest car, but dominating in an era when the competitors were not even allowed to catch up.

[Emmcee 0]

This strikes me as absolute bs. The sport is willing to loose 2 teams and 4 cars due to the fact they refuse to use the same engine supplier they have for years simply because testing isn't available to cure the issues they have, so they will be forever behind. Now to make matters worse, they come out and say that the departure of redbull and toro Rosso could force teams to run a third car just to make up the numbers, how is that supposed to be "cost cutting"? Why not just open the restrictions? So teams aren't forced to quit? Iam just gobsmacked as to how they are running this sport now, seems common sense really is a characteristic that lacks in today's society.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Bernie won't allow RBR to go like this. Apparently Merc is back into the mix as a supplier. They will be here guys, we just don't know what engine yet.

[Emmcee 0]

But you would think betnie having to step in would only ring alarm bells to himself, that unless something changes, bailing teams out for lack of funds and now what seems to be a new development in helping teams secure power plants is only making things worse.

[rodders47 2]

Don't care. The lack of in-season engine development makes the whole thing a yawn fest anyway. Fastest car in Australia wins. If Redbull dont have fastest car in Australia they may as well not be there anyway.

Hamilton has the honor of not only dominating because he has the fastest car, but dominating in an era when the competitors were not even allowed to catch up.

So is that to be taken that you SUPPORT Hammy taking all the wins, maybe shared by Rosberg some times, because they have the best engine??? That should shoot Hammy's idea that he will be a better driver then Senna out the bloody window....... Hammy won't be able to say/show how GREAT he is if there is no competition...................... end of...........................

[spiral.out 0]

So is that to be taken that you SUPPORT Hammy taking all the wins, maybe shared by Rosberg some times, because they have the best engine??? That should shoot Hammy's idea that he will be a better driver then Senna out the bloody window....... Hammy won't be able to say/show how GREAT he is if there is no competition...................... end of...........................

No my point is that the rules are so f%^cked that theres no point having more than one team in the entire competition. If RB stays, gets a lame engine, and the rules dont change, then whats the point them even being there?

[Jem of the Shire 0]

No double standards please. Does anyone think Senna's 88 title, or Prost's 93 title were hollow? No.

[spiral.out 0]

No double standards please. Does anyone think Senna's 88 title, or Prost's 93 title were hollow? No.

Were the other teams allowed to try and keep up or was development frozen?

[Emmcee 0]

88- was won due to having the two best drivers in the field and by a huge margin. Top 6 scored points and we had more teams scoring than today.

93- was won due to the active suspension the Williams cars perfected from 1992. Renault was the engine to have and Williams locked it in.

[maure 1]

"In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Yes.

[spiral.out 0]

88- was won due to having the two best drivers in the field and by a huge margin. Top 6 scored points and we had more teams scoring than today.

93- was won due to the active suspension the Williams cars perfected from 1992. Renault was the engine to have and Williams locked it in.

well if the teams were allowed to develop their cars its hardly comparable.

[Emmcee 0]

well if the teams were allowed to develop their cars its hardly comparable.

Exactly, even senna at the end of 92 knew that Prost and Williams would dominate 93, he said it was like running 100m sprint and everyone had lead shoes and Prost had running shoes, that's how he wants to race. Mclaren already knew there power plant was no match for Williams and Renault.

[KoolMonkey 0]

To continue along that line, McLaren in 92 were not restricted from trying to make up the difference, nor where they locked into losing for the next 3 years. That's the point spiral is making. They still had the chance and opportunity to change their engines and do whatever they could. Current teams can't do jack sh*t. Some aero parts, new winglets, different wheel nuts. Whoppee fkn do. As long as nothing changes, Merc can win for the next 20 years if need be. That is indeed hollow because no other teams have the chance under these atrocious rules to make up the difference. It's not one year put down to a learning curve, or starting on the back foot and makin up ground.. It's 3-5 years of utter hell for these teams who know full well they can't do anything due to how restrictive the "pinnacle of motorsport" has become.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah exactly, I just thought of something, do you think if they kept the engine format the way it is but allow basically as much testing as they like for aero. Will that close the gap and allow proper racing to return? I think it would certainly help a lot.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Yes it would help massively. But this engine format is also insanely over complicated. Thus the teams could make headway and improvements on the engine side of things with being able to make changes, but the ERS for example appears to be an utter nightmare to deal with. That's why I'd love for them to go. Or roll back to the original KERS system we had on the V8s. But really let's simply things a bit. Get rid of ERS and possibly even DRS. Keep the turbos, let them go for it. No rev limits. Who here remembers Cosworth breaking the 20k rpm barrier back in the V10 days? I do. I want some more of that please.

Also fix the frong wings and aero affect so that the trailing car and sit right behind and not get disturbed aero.

Such easy fixes in my view, and we'd be left with a sport that might just have some excitement back.

[Emmcee 0]

It's is that easy but.

[spiral.out 0]

To continue along that line, McLaren in 92 were not restricted from trying to make up the difference, nor where they locked into losing for the next 3 years. That's the point spiral is making. They still had the chance and opportunity to change their engines and do whatever they could. Current teams can't do jack sh*t. Some aero parts, new winglets, different wheel nuts. Whoppee fkn do. As long as nothing changes, Merc can win for the next 20 years if need be. That is indeed hollow because no other teams have the chance under these atrocious rules to make up the difference. It's not one year put down to a learning curve, or starting on the back foot and makin up ground.. It's 3-5 years of utter hell for these teams who know full well they can't do anything due to how restrictive the "pinnacle of motorsport" has become.

CMON MAN!!! Those WHEEL NUTS make a MASSIVE difference!

lolz

[Emmcee 0]

They sent Vettel out of the Aus gp in 2009 or 2010. Remember? Ended up in the gravel.

[Insider 0]

I don't really care if the whole RB organisation leaves at all. They are acting like spoiled brats. They had their time and a good one it was too but Renault did not get their act together on the hybrid and were vilified for it. Every one bar Mercedes and Ferrari are playing permanent catch-up but they are still in the sport and fighting. Red Bull think they have a good-given right to be at the top of the timesheet. Well, they don't and their behaviour has been churlish to say the least. Now they have backed themselves into a corner and no one wants to help them. After all, neither Ferrari or Merc want season long spats with them about parity etc. and who can blame them.

[Emmcee 0]

Yeah well said mate, couldn't agree more.

[KoolMonkey 0]

Insider I strongly suspect RBR's dissatisfaction has come about due to HOW Renault have dealt with their horrid engine package. They haven't even used a single token yet. Are you suggesting then that RBR just suck it up for another 2 years until the next major regulation overhaul without trying to do something about it? RBR are powerless to improve their engine situation. They don't want to be in this situation. Sitting still hoping things improve doesn't change anything, they need to act. Horner is desperately trying to keep Mateschitz on side. He doesn't want the team to fold and neither do I.

They want to win. Before that can happen, they need to improve. How has Renault improved? They were a disaster during the very first pre-season tests last year. Now they don't blow up as much, but nothing much has changed.

The only way to improve under these draconian rules is to use tokens or change engine suppliers. I don't think for a second RBR wanted this to happen. You're an incredibly intelligent poster on these forums, but this reminds me so much of the idiots who say they will be happy for RBR to leave, those whinging whining cheating b#####ds, don't let the door hit you on the way out type of posts. I know that's not what you posted, but it kind of felt like it a bit.

I don't want RBR to leave. I admire Newey. I think Horner is a great team leader. STR are also a valued team. F1 cannot afford to lose either of these teams.

Rather than blame them, lets look at how this has come about. Merc look to me like they have f'ked them around a bit, with we will supply, oh no, now we won't. Going so far as to have Bernie supposedly create a coverage blackout during Suzuka.

RBR asking for engine parity is fine in my book. They have every right to do so. Toto clearly thinks otherwise. On one hand saying we need close competition, but then being too scared to supply a team that even with Merc engines, I don't think would beat Merc in this current set of regs. No one brings up the hypocrisy of them supplying Manor with 2016 power units. But are willing to crucify RBR because they are desiring to be given a fair chance. If Renault was actually spending tokens and putting in some proper effort, RBR wouldn't be changing suppliers. It's that simple. There has to be a whole bunch of crap they are dealing with that is not yet public. I don't want to be blaming Renault, but they promised something they couldn't deliver. Not only that, they appear to have not done anything to improve the situation.

There is no fair in F1. I hope the case brought to the EU from Sauber and Force India succeeds. F1 is broken, corrupt and needs to burn to the ground. Todt is incapable of making any changes. Thus if F1 needs to completely fail to succeed, let it happen. Sadly it might take RBR leaving the sport before anything real changes.

[spiral.out 0]

Toto clearly thinks otherwise. On one hand saying we need close competition, but then being too scared to supply a team that even with Merc engines,

Nailed it.

[Emmcee 0]

Insider I strongly suspect RBR's dissatisfaction has come about due to HOW Renault have dealt with their horrid engine package. They haven't even used a single token yet. Are you suggesting then that RBR just suck it up for another 2 years until the next major regulation overhaul without trying to do something about it? RBR are powerless to improve their engine situation. They don't want to be in this situation. Sitting still hoping things improve doesn't change anything, they need to act. Horner is desperately trying to keep Mateschitz on side. He doesn't want the team to fold and neither do I.

They want to win. Before that can happen, they need to improve. How has Renault improved? They were a disaster during the very first pre-season tests last year. Now they don't blow up as much, but nothing much has changed.

The only way to improve under these draconian rules is to use tokens or change engine suppliers. I don't think for a second RBR wanted this to happen. You're an incredibly intelligent poster on these forums, but this reminds me so much of the idiots who say they will be happy for RBR to leave, those whinging whining cheating b#####ds, don't let the door hit you on the way out type of posts. I know that's not what you posted, but it kind of felt like it a bit.

I don't want RBR to leave. I admire Newey. I think Horner is a great team leader. STR are also a valued team. F1 cannot afford to lose either of these teams.

Rather than blame them, lets look at how this has come about. Merc look to me like they have f'ked them around a bit, with we will supply, oh no, now we won't. Going so far as to have Bernie supposedly create a coverage blackout during Suzuka.

RBR asking for engine parity is fine in my book. They have every right to do so. Toto clearly thinks otherwise. On one hand saying we need close competition, but then being too scared to supply a team that even with Merc engines, I don't think would beat Merc in this current set of regs. No one brings up the hypocrisy of them supplying Manor with 2016 power units. But are willing to crucify RBR because they are desiring to be given a fair chance. If Renault was actually spending tokens and putting in some proper effort, RBR wouldn't be changing suppliers. It's that simple. There has to be a whole bunch of crap they are dealing with that is not yet public. I don't want to be blaming Renault, but they promised something they couldn't deliver. Not only that, they appear to have not done anything to improve the situation.

There is no fair in F1. I hope the case brought to the EU from Sauber and Force India succeeds. F1 is broken, corrupt and needs to burn to the ground. Todt is incapable of making any changes. Thus if F1 needs to completely fail to succeed, let it happen. Sadly it might take RBR leaving the sport before anything real changes.

I totally understand but it's The way they have carried on about it. Now it comes across like there jumping up and down and demanding a supplier. When in all honesty, it's probably that rivals would be more worried about there package once it has significant power. But it has put them in a position where no one wants to help them. When a more softer approach could've bagged the deal they were after.

[KoolMonkey 0]

I don't think a softer approach would have made any difference. How do we know what went on in the meetings with Merc and Ferrari? We don't. I very much doubt there was any demanding going on. Marko doesn't count either. He's a loon and should leave F1 like Lauda. But RBR are a smart well managed business. Just look at all the sponsors they have. They know how to wheel and deal. But if a team does not want to deal, a softer approach won't make any difference sadly