70 replies to this topic

[rodders47]

Do you guys get the feeling that both Bernie and Max have a feeling that by 2010 F1 will be "Off The Planet" so to speak? Meaning that they will be loosing MONEY, the only thing that seems to worry them

I wonder what Bernie means by "Standard Engines"?

Maybe the old 40 HP Vee dub in the back ala formula Vee  way back in the 80's, now that would surely cut costs, comes complete with 4 speed very strong gearbox, maybe not cause the old veedub motor is almost extinct :-) but you could add KERS to that and get maybe 140hp, WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. And think of the GREEN IMAGE that would impose on the world, gotta be the WTG

But then again thinking about that scenario, probably would not be any more boring then the last few races!  Could that be possible  

Edited by rodders47, 09 October 2008 - 05:14 AM.

[maure]

It is counter-intuitive to demand that different manufacturers use the same engine. After all, whose?

Will we get to see a Ferrari running on a Honda engine? Or a BMW on a Renault? It makes no sense at all.

What they must mean, unless they are totally cuckoo, is that they want all engines to follow the same specs (as if they didn't already)... which in F1 simply means that absurd amounts of money will be thrown at cheat-tweaking them. Whoever has more money will get the edge as always. Unfortunately, more restrictions mean one thing and one thing only, small teams will never get a chance to beat the large teams with off-the-wall groundbreaking innovations.

Just imagine if this regulation hysteria would have, for example, prevented Lotus from introducing monocoque chassis to F1...

And, once again, you gotta wonder why innovation is such a blasphemy to these jackarses. Saving on costs? What is never going to happen is that McLaren is going to have the same budget as Toro Rosso... because if it ever does, it will be the death of the sport.

[rodders47]

call me a pesimist, but whtever rule /rules are forthcoming, they will only at the end of the day be favourable to lining Bernie's pocket, no if's or but's about that.

Bernie is NOT interested in F1 persay just what he can reap from it and F)(*&^$%^&^k what the viewing public want

[Jez]

Blah blah Bernie wants standard spec engines blah.


BTW good post Maure.

[Jez]

Earlier this week Max Mosley warned of a growing financial crisis in Formula One that could result in at least two teams going under by the end of next year.



The FIA President called for the sport to impliment drastic cost cutting measure, prompting Ecclestone to suggest the use of a standard engine from 2010.



"The thing I am most excited about is pushing and pushing and pushing the homologated engine idea," he told the Times newspaper.



"The new engine will be equalised and there will only be two engine changes a year, so costs are going to dramatically come down, and I mean dramatically."



The newspaper added that Ecclestone's proposal would see each team still building their own engine, however, it would be done to a standard design while team's without manufacturers would have theirs built by an independent contractor.



WTF?

[Oli]

maure, on Oct 9 2008, 06:15 AM, said:

What they must mean, unless they are totally cuckoo, is that they want all engines to follow the same specs (as if they didn't already)... which in F1 simply means that absurd amounts of money will be thrown at cheat-tweaking them. Whoever has more money will get the edge as always. Unfortunately, more restrictions mean one thing and one thing only, small teams will never get a chance to beat the large teams with off-the-wall groundbreaking innovations.

Just imagine if this regulation hysteria would have, for example, prevented Lotus from introducing monocoque chassis to F1...

100% agree.

[monza gorilla]

Yep. Nice post, Maure. DOF is probably face down in his cornflakes as we speak.

[pabloh20]

monza gorilla, on Oct 9 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

Yep. Nice post, Maure. DOF is probably face down in his cornflakes as we speak.

Ambulance for DOF!!!

It makes you wonder how 2 men can spend so long around F1 and still have no clue about it at all.

[DOF_power]

Formula M - E - D - I - O - C - R - I - T - Y, brought to you by Jean Marie Balestre, Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosely.


Are you a loser, hopesly stuck in the mid-field and/or back of the grid ?!
Is you engine/chassis/aero complete garbage ?!
Have no fear the council for the promotion of mediocrity is working for you. Spec enegines for the losers in all of us.
Just remember, I'm alright, you're alright, nobody's a loser, everyone's winner. Group hug.  

Want diversity, innovation, new records every year, a system based on merits and not gimmicks, where the winners and losers are clearly defined ?!

See Le Mans, LMS, ALMS, JLM.

Formula M - E - D - I - O - C - R - I - T - Y, for the losers in all of us.

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW, 09 October 2008 - 10:14 AM.

[Max Mosley]

monza gorilla, on Oct 9 2008, 09:10 AM, said:

DOF is probably face down in his cornflakes as we speak.

  

pabloh20, on Oct 9 2008, 09:12 AM, said:

It makes you wonder how 2 men can spend so long around F1 and still have no clue about it at all.

Make that 3...  Well, OK, I haven't spent that much time around F1.

Bernie's idea sounds like a terrific one.  Well done that man!

[pabloh20]

Murray Walker, on Oct 9 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

  


Make that 3...  Well, OK, I haven't spent that much time around F1.

Bernie's idea sounds like a terrific one.  Well done that man!

See, now I am happy

[medilloni]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Oct 9 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

Formula M - E - D - I - O - C - R - I - T - Y, brought to you by Jean Marie Balestre, Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosely.

Are you a loser, hopesly stuck in the mid-field and/or back of the grid ?!
Is you engine/chassis/aero complete garbage ?!
Have no fear the council for the promotion of mediocrity is working for you. Spec enegines for the losers in all of us.
Just remember, I'm alright, you're alright, nobody's a loser, everyone's winner. Group hug.  

Want diversity, innovation, new records every year, a system based on merits and not gimmicks, where the winners and losers are clearly defined ?!

See Le Mans, LMS, ALMS, JLM.

Formula M - E - D - I - O - C - R - I - T - Y, for the losers in all of us.

It's this whole mediocrity thing that's so strange to hear on a forum for those interested in F1.  Formula Ford has everything to offer for those that are interested in a couple of engine changes per year, low cost, shared components ble ble bleh.    

Having said that, it's hard to find another country that's gone so much in the direction that the UK has (apart from Sweden maybe) with its, "mediocrity/average is just fine darling, don't worry, being inventive doesn't count for anything, you can't ever fail with our new avarage-one-size-fits-all system".  So maybe it's no surprise that some aren't so interested in the technological-race side of f1......

World events might dictate some changes, but never to this level of castration.  It's official, F1 now has a high pitched voice and wears suspenders and a bra  

[YHR]

????What is Bernie saying, that there is no room in the world for a True Formula 1.   There are already spec engine races all over the planet.  IF Formula 1 goes that route, what is the point????  Except to fill his pockets with more money.  Why don't we all start watching  A1GP.  It appears they are already where Bernie wants to take F1

[maure]

monza gorilla, on Oct 9 2008, 08:10 AM, said:

Yep. Nice post, Maure. DOF is probably face down in his cornflakes as we speak.

This got me laughing...

[maure]

medilloni, on Oct 9 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

It's this whole mediocrity thing that's so strange to hear on a forum for those interested in F1.  Formula Ford has everything to offer for those that are interested in a couple of engine changes per year, low cost, shared components ble ble bleh.    

Having said that, it's hard to find another country that's gone so much in the direction that the UK has (apart from Sweden maybe) with its, "mediocrity/average is just fine darling, don't worry, being inventive doesn't count for anything, you can't ever fail with our new avarage-one-size-fits-all system".  So maybe it's no surprise that some aren't so interested in the technological-race side of f1......

World events might dictate some changes, but never to this level of castration.  It's official, F1 now has a high pitched voice and wears suspenders and a bra  

It fcking isn't, it just fcking isn't.

Global hug, go planet.

[Rainmaster]

Bernie doing his usual tricks of pushing for extremes, so what we eventually get (which is less extreme but still s##t) seems like a good deal.

No, the manufacturers will not want to be running someone else's engines, it goes against their philosophy and the genetic make-up of F1.

Basically what maure said.

[The Rumble Strip]

Indeed F1 is all about being the best and letting the others catch up.

This is not GP2 or A1.

[rodders47]

Why don't we all start watching A1GP. It appears they are already where Bernie wants to take F1

And I bet Bernie has his greedy bloody fingers in that pie also.

Noted today that maybe the reason for the Canadian GP being scrapped was that the organisers didn't sucumb to Bernies exhorbitant charges!!!!

[Max Mosley]

medilloni, on Oct 9 2008, 01:22 PM, said:

It's this whole mediocrity thing that's so strange to hear on a forum for those interested in F1.  Formula Ford has everything to offer for those that are interested in a couple of engine changes per year, low cost, shared components ble ble bleh.    

Having said that, it's hard to find another country that's gone so much in the direction that the UK has (apart from Sweden maybe) with its, "mediocrity/average is just fine darling, don't worry, being inventive doesn't count for anything, you can't ever fail with our new avarage-one-size-fits-all system".  So maybe it's no surprise that some aren't so interested in the technological-race side of f1......

World events might dictate some changes, but never to this level of castration.  It's official, F1 now has a high pitched voice and wears suspenders and a bra  

  Someone else fell for DOF's spin.   The word mediocre is no more than that.  In fact, the word is best used in F1 circles to describe the current state of engineering.  95% of the technology in F1 is mediocre and mundane, and the rest they buy in from the far smarter people who invent it.  To me, the thing that's so strange to hear on an F1 forum is all this guff about F1 being full of brilliant engineers.  The funny thing is that there are better engineers posting on this site than most of the ones in F1.

[YHR]

Murray Walker, on Oct 10 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

  Someone else fell for DOF's spin.   The word mediocre is no more than that.  In fact, the word is best used in F1 circles to describe the current state of engineering.  95% of the technology in F1 is mediocre and mundane, and the rest they buy in from the far smarter people who invent it.  To me, the thing that's so strange to hear on an F1 forum is all this guff about F1 being full of brilliant engineers.  The funny thing is that there are better engineers posting on this site than most of the ones in F1.

Actually you are kind of backing up what DOF is selling.  F1 is no longer any kind of pinniacle of motor sport.  It is greed and Hype, and not much more.

[Max Mosley]

It is the pinnacle of motorsport because the drivers are the best.  The engineering has never been remarkable, at least not for a very long time if ever.  Its USP is the driving talent: there are smarter people posting here than work in F1 but no one here can drive half as well as Ide.

Edited by Murray Walker, 10 October 2008 - 05:18 PM.

[YHR]

Murray Walker, on Oct 10 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

It is the pinnacle of motorsport because the drivers are the best.  The engineering has never been remarkable, at least not for a very long time if ever.  Its USP is the driving talent: there are smarter people posting here than work in F1 but no one here can drive half as well as Ide.

Well that is the problem then isn't it.  Because frankly I don't share that at opinion with you.  In truth we have no way of knowing if they are the best drivers in the world.  All we can do is live in our perceptions of the world around us, and mine is different then yours.

[monza gorilla]

I agree. I do not believe for one second that F1 has the best drivers in the world. Not even that it has the the best F1 drivers in the world. Too many people have the blinkers on.And Murray, who is it saying that F1 is full of brilliant engineers? Which leads to the question: where are the brilliant engineers and what are they doing?

Edited by monza gorilla, 10 October 2008 - 05:43 PM.

[Kopite Girl]

Murray Walker, on Oct 10 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

It is the pinnacle of motorsport because the drivers are the best.  The engineering has never been remarkable, at least not for a very long time if ever.  Its USP is the driving talent: there are smarter people posting here than work in F1 but no one here can drive half as well as Ide.

Your cynicism kills me every time.  

As for the standard engines. Bollocks simplified.

[Max Mosley]

YHR, on Oct 10 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

Well that is the problem then isn't it.  Because frankly I don't share that at opinion with you.  In truth we have no way of knowing if they are the best drivers in the world.  All we can do is live in our perceptions of the world around us, and mine is different then yours.

Each to their own, as so often, then.

monza gorilla, on Oct 10 2008, 06:42 PM, said:

I agree. I do not believe for one second that F1 has the best drivers in the world. Not even that it has the the best F1 drivers in the world. Too many people have the blinkers on.And Murray, who is it saying that F1 is full of brilliant engineers? Which leads to the question: where are the brilliant engineers and what are they doing?

F1 has the best drivers out of all the single-seater, open-wheel racing car series imho.  Which series am I forgetting, if I've got this wrong?

And tons of people are saying F1 is full of brilliant engineers.  Anyone who complains that Max's spec agenda makes F1 mediocre is implying that it isn't technically mediocre already.  All the people who say they love F1 because of its technological innovation are saying F1 is a source of noteworthy innovation.

[medilloni]

Murray Walker, on Oct 10 2008, 05:56 PM, said:

  Someone else fell for DOF's spin.   The word mediocre is no more than that.  In fact, the word is best used in F1 circles to describe the current state of engineering.  95% of the technology in F1 is mediocre and mundane, and the rest they buy in from the far smarter people who invent it.  To me, the thing that's so strange to hear on an F1 forum is all this guff about F1 being full of brilliant engineers.  The funny thing is that there are better engineers posting on this site than most of the ones in F1.

Hey Murray, DOF doesn't do 'spin', he's passionate about aspects of motorsport that he's interested in, and voices his opinion.

Your assertion that F1 isn't 'full of brilliant engineers' might be true if you only regard brilliance as those that invent, period.  The application of existing technology in F1 is brilliantly applied.  

If they weren't any good, why don't Ferrari employ a couple of welders, a grease monkey and some bloke that knows why paper planes fly?  Are the fluid and aero dynamacists, stress engineers, designers etc etc etc etc not most excellent at their trade?

Is designing an engine, gearbox and associated running gear that is more highly stressed. and is required to last ten times longer than ten years ago, any less an achievement to the likes of those Keith Duckworth was famous for - even with, or perhaps especially because of, present regs?  

Your bar for 'brilliant' must be raised to the heights of Einstein and...............

......dammit, bollocks and knobs.  I fell into your stirring trap again didn't I?  

[maure]

Murray Walker, on Oct 10 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

It is the pinnacle of motorsport because the drivers are the best.  The engineering has never been remarkable, at least not for a very long time if ever.  Its USP is the driving talent: there are smarter people posting here than work in F1 but no one here can drive half as well as Ide.

Sure, buddy, sure. F1 engineers? A worthless bunch of 'accents'.

I suppose that after telling us about all those papers that you've published in "reputable" academic journals, it is now time to tell us about the years you've spent working for "reputable" F1 teams. It is all so simple for the simple.

[monza gorilla]

You didn't get it wrong, Murray, but to simply say F1 has the best drivers is a bit sweeping without qualification. I immediately think of other great, non F1, drivers who I consider to be better overall.
As for brilliant engineers, what is brilliant? The guy who invented active suspension? Or the guy who made it work? One does not have to be innovative to be brilliant. Standing on the shoulders of giants, as some obscure Englishman once said, with some modesty. Building on what has gone before.

EDIT: curse you, Med and Maure, for interrupting my flow.  
EDIT EDIT: beer o'clock. Have fun.

Edited by monza gorilla, 10 October 2008 - 06:13 PM.

[YHR]

Murray Walker, on Oct 10 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

Each to their own, as so often, then.


F1 has the best drivers out of all the single-seater, open-wheel racing car series imho.  Which series am I forgetting, if I've got this wrong?And tons of people are saying F1 is full of brilliant engineers.  Anyone who complains that Max's spec agenda makes F1 mediocre is implying that it isn't technically mediocre already.  All the people who say they love F1 because of its technological innovation are saying F1 is a source of noteworthy innovation.

Do you even know the names of the drivers in Indycar??  Have you ever watched them race.?  To dismiss others, because they don't drive in F1 is a pretty silly concept.  It's like the kid who hates lobster, but he has never even tasted it.  His perception is robbing him of a wonderful  experience

[Rainmaster]

In general your average F1 driver is better or more talented than drivers from other single seater series, and is obviously better than the guys from the lower ranks leading up to F1, which covers a lot.

A better way of putting it is: the top guys in F1 are just as good as anyone else you can name, and please show me someone who can do what Lewis Hamilton does (I think any driver in any single seater series would struggle to beat him as a team mate).

Rally drivers are another breed altogether, what they do is just brilliant.