http://www.pitpass.c...?fes_gal_id=953
Another debut brought to our attention by Meds in the F1 daily thread.
1
Williams Fw31
Started by
Jez
, Jan 19 2009 10:34 PM
28 replies to this topic
#1
Jez
-
- Senior Members
-
- 1,773 posts
F1 Champignon
- Gender:Male
- Location:Terra is my nation
Posted 19 January 2009 - 10:34 PM
#2
Rainmaster
-
- Senior Members
-
- 7,464 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:The Ning Nang Nong
Posted 19 January 2009 - 11:12 PM
As with the Renault, it won't turn any heads, well it might turn heads the other way!
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/72884
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/72884
Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
#3
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:38 AM
Super low key launch from the boys at Grove, they just wheeled the FW31 out onto the pit box and prodded Nico Hulkenberg to stand along side the car for a couple of pictures in front of the world's media.
As per the normal with Williams over the last couple of seasons they won't launch the actually livery until just before the first race in Melbourne.
Ummm can a mod please relocate this thread to the 2009 Launches, thanks
Jez what were you thinking
As per the normal with Williams over the last couple of seasons they won't launch the actually livery until just before the first race in Melbourne.
Ummm can a mod please relocate this thread to the 2009 Launches, thanks
Jez what were you thinking
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#4
Jez
-
- Senior Members
-
- 1,773 posts
F1 Champignon
- Gender:Male
- Location:Terra is my nation
Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:47 AM
I'm thinking maybe these cars are too ugly to warrant a 2009 launch thread
#5
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:49 AM
Jez, on Jan 20 2009, 12:47 PM, said:
I'm thinking maybe these cars are too ugly to warrant a 2009 launch thread
Good point.
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#6
rumblestrip
-
- Members
-
- 514 posts
Veteran Driver
- Gender:Male
- Location:USA
Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:55 AM
The Williams is the only one I like so far. It's a pity that they likely won't keep this livery into the actual season.
#7
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:13 AM
The FW31 has the lowest nose cone of any car released so far. Its also very wide, like how I expect the BMW nose is going to look.
I really like the sidepods on the FW31, square looking but nice.
I really like the sidepods on the FW31, square looking but nice.
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#8
HandyNZL
-
- Pit Crew
-
- 5,026 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:The Tron, NZL
Posted 20 January 2009 - 06:26 AM
Yes 10 thumbs up for Williams - I like their car (again), and wish (again) that they raced in this "interim" livery...its so lurvly....
I think, without wishing too hard, that Williams may have a chance at some consistent podiums this year, seeing as this is a "from scratch" design...I think the problems over the last few years have been that they got stuck in a bit of a design alley way that they could no longer get out of, but this season, it's a clean sheet of paper, and that all bodes well for someone like Patrick Head...and with the movable front wings, I think this is something Williams will be able to make work better than other corporate-committee design teams.
Looking forward to the Red Bulls (x2) to launch now. Yet somehow nunplussed about seeing the Force India (yawn)....
I think, without wishing too hard, that Williams may have a chance at some consistent podiums this year, seeing as this is a "from scratch" design...I think the problems over the last few years have been that they got stuck in a bit of a design alley way that they could no longer get out of, but this season, it's a clean sheet of paper, and that all bodes well for someone like Patrick Head...and with the movable front wings, I think this is something Williams will be able to make work better than other corporate-committee design teams.
Looking forward to the Red Bulls (x2) to launch now. Yet somehow nunplussed about seeing the Force India (yawn)....
#9
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 20 January 2009 - 06:27 AM
Notice the smaller airbox on the FW31. It's accompanied by two small inlets either side either for the cooling of the KERS systems and batteries or hydraulics I would assume.
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#10
HandyNZL
-
- Pit Crew
-
- 5,026 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:The Tron, NZL
Posted 20 January 2009 - 06:32 AM
From what Sam Michaels was saying at Pitpass, I don't think they are running KERS this year. So those extra intakes are for oil cooling I'd presume, or just extra cooling to the engine since there are no chimneys or gills allowed anymore.
#11
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 20 January 2009 - 07:42 AM
HandyNZL, on Jan 20 2009, 04:32 PM, said:
From what Sam Michaels was saying at Pitpass, I don't think they are running KERS this year. So those extra intakes are for oil cooling I'd presume, or just extra cooling to the engine since there are no chimneys or gills allowed anymore.
True, I can't for the life of me figure out why then Williams would have bought Automotive Hybrid Power Limited in order to develop the Flywheel KERS system then not run it as soon as it was ready??? I understand that there is a massive amount of development to be had in the aero but you would assume that Automotive Hybrid Power Limited would work seperately on the KERS systems.
Thoughts anyone???
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#12
medilloni
-
- Senior Members
-
- 2,064 posts
They're all The Greatest
- Gender:Male
Posted 20 January 2009 - 08:40 AM
Thoughts? Thoughts!? Can't anyone post in the right damn place anymore?
Anyway, the Willy. The sidepods look clever, they've done away with the fins, but the raised 'shoulder' will still funnel air where they want it to go.
KERS, well the FIA have shafted everyone by letting the teams spend a fortune for this year, then scrap it for next year when a standerd one will be introduced - fcuking madness. I just hope that the standerd design is awarded to Williams, which doesn't (at the moment) use batteries, something the FIA are keen to avoid.
Anyway, the Willy. The sidepods look clever, they've done away with the fins, but the raised 'shoulder' will still funnel air where they want it to go.
KERS, well the FIA have shafted everyone by letting the teams spend a fortune for this year, then scrap it for next year when a standerd one will be introduced - fcuking madness. I just hope that the standerd design is awarded to Williams, which doesn't (at the moment) use batteries, something the FIA are keen to avoid.
"Avoiding problems you need to face, is avoiding the life you need to live."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
#13
Max Mosley
-
- Senior Members
-
- 8,810 posts
Cleaning up since 2004
- Location:The FIA, I'm its boss, you know
Posted 20 January 2009 - 10:22 AM
aussief1, on Jan 20 2009, 07:42 AM, said:
True, I can't for the life of me figure out why then Williams would have bought Automotive Hybrid Power Limited in order to develop the Flywheel KERS system then not run it as soon as it was ready??? I understand that there is a massive amount of development to be had in the aero but you would assume that Automotive Hybrid Power Limited would work seperately on the KERS systems.
Thoughts anyone???
Thoughts anyone???
medilloni, on Jan 20 2009, 08:40 AM, said:
Thoughts? Thoughts!? Can't anyone post in the right damn place anymore?
Anyway, the Willy. The sidepods look clever, they've done away with the fins, but the raised 'shoulder' will still funnel air where they want it to go.
KERS, well the FIA have shafted everyone by letting the teams spend a fortune for this year, then scrap it for next year when a standerd one will be introduced - fcuking madness. I just hope that the standerd design is awarded to Williams, which doesn't (at the moment) use batteries, something the FIA are keen to avoid.
Anyway, the Willy. The sidepods look clever, they've done away with the fins, but the raised 'shoulder' will still funnel air where they want it to go.
KERS, well the FIA have shafted everyone by letting the teams spend a fortune for this year, then scrap it for next year when a standerd one will be introduced - fcuking madness. I just hope that the standerd design is awarded to Williams, which doesn't (at the moment) use batteries, something the FIA are keen to avoid.
I just think it's funny that when you give them some innovation to do the teams complain that it's too complicated. Seeing the shambles at Ferrari is worth it all!
To be a willing slave of a loving God's commands,
That's the key to a freedom that I'll never understand.
--Shad K., biggest thing out of Canada since Pamela's double Ds.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
--Mark Twain (1835-1910)
That's the key to a freedom that I'll never understand.
--Shad K., biggest thing out of Canada since Pamela's double Ds.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream.
--Mark Twain (1835-1910)
#14
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 20 January 2009 - 11:38 AM
medilloni, on Jan 20 2009, 06:40 PM, said:
Thoughts? Thoughts!? Can't anyone post in the right damn place anymore?
I already tried to have a go at Jez for that **** up but he came back with a worthy response in that "the cars are so ugly they don't deserve their own section". Gold
Murray Walker, on Jan 20 2009, 08:22 PM, said:
Sounds like they're too short of cash to develop the aero and KERS in time. The overall benefit of KERS isn't that great compared to aero tweaks so I guess it would make sense to focus on the latter first. Will Automotive Hybrid Power Limited keep doing their own thing as well or are they working full time for Williams now, I wonder.
But why the hell bother being proactive and buying them in order to get the jump on the rest of the field if you cannot fund the development in order to maximise the investment. I assume that they would continue working on flywheel development contracts that they already had in place.
Edited by aussief1, 20 January 2009 - 11:40 AM.
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#15
Rainmaster
-
- Senior Members
-
- 7,464 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:The Ning Nang Nong
Posted 20 January 2009 - 05:35 PM
aussief1, on Jan 20 2009, 07:42 AM, said:
True, I can't for the life of me figure out why then Williams would have bought Automotive Hybrid Power Limited in order to develop the Flywheel KERS system then not run it as soon as it was ready??? I understand that there is a massive amount of development to be had in the aero but you would assume that Automotive Hybrid Power Limited would work seperately on the KERS systems.
Thoughts anyone???
Thoughts anyone???
Good question. I am guessing that they simply can't make it work very well for them, or they have decided to stop development on it because they don't want to waste any more money on it, when it may be 'standard' next year (another stroke of genius by the FIA there).
Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
#16
mikathegreat2
-
- Senior Members
-
- 4,897 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:Lucan, Ireland
- Interests:fapping.
Posted 20 January 2009 - 08:03 PM
It's all navy blue now with no more spots of white!
Dan is currently playing: with himself...
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
- Mark Twain
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
- Mark Twain
#17
The Rumble Strip
-
- Senior Members
-
- 1,976 posts
F1 Ace
Posted 20 January 2009 - 10:15 PM
That's an interim livery.
#18
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:18 AM
Rainmaster, on Jan 21 2009, 03:35 AM, said:
Good question. I am guessing that they simply can't make it work very well for them, or they have decided to stop development on it because they don't want to waste any more money on it, when it may be 'standard' next year (another stroke of genius by the FIA there).
Nah, that can't be it. Lets face it, if Williams can't make the flywheel KERS work with the assistance of owning a company who speciality is flywheel KERS, then what exactly is going on down at Grove these days.
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#19
Grabthaw the Hammerslayer
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,365 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:The garden of England
Posted 21 January 2009 - 06:44 AM
So the RBS logo is still on there... for how much longer, I wonder?? 
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone to blame it on. - Robert Bloch
Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the hell is the ceiling?
I think animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.
#20
medilloni
-
- Senior Members
-
- 2,064 posts
They're all The Greatest
- Gender:Male
Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:48 AM
Meanioni, on Jan 21 2009, 06:44 AM, said:
So the RBS logo is still on there... for how much longer, I wonder??
I read somewhere, that RBS are signed up for 'another two years', whether that means this and next year, or '10 and '11 I dunno - so trying to get out of the deal would probably cost them and arm and leg. Or I could have made it up 'cos this off-season is exceptionally boring.
"Avoiding problems you need to face, is avoiding the life you need to live."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
#21
Rainmaster
-
- Senior Members
-
- 7,464 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:The Ning Nang Nong
Posted 21 January 2009 - 03:47 PM
aussief1, on Jan 21 2009, 03:18 AM, said:
Nah, that can't be it. Lets face it, if Williams can't make the flywheel KERS work with the assistance of owning a company who speciality is flywheel KERS, then what exactly is going on down at Grove these days.
I can't be sure, although the company they work with are specialists on KERS, they aren't specialists in racing KERS, which I think must be a very difficult and different challenge. I guess they have to find a way to put it into the car without screwing up the weight distribution, which affects the balance which is linked to the handling and everything else.
Saying that, I do agree, it isn't a very good explanation.
Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
#22
aussief1
-
- Senior Members
-
- 3,909 posts
F1 Ace
- Location:Queensland, Australia
Posted 25 February 2009 - 03:17 AM
Williams are planning to use the same livery as last year. So with that said, its just Force India yet to release their 2009 car and livery.
28 days remain.
28 days remain.
"Giancarlo, you are still two seconds a lap slower than Fernando, this cannot be possible you have the same fuel load, I know you have some understeer but you cannot be two seconds slower, COME ON"!!!! - Alan Permane, Fisichella�s race engineer, 2006 Australian Grand Prix
"We're lucky we don't build aeroplanes" - Mark Webber on Red Bulls reliability issues at the Australian Grand Prix 2008.
Nathan is: .............. ??
#23
Ash1
-
- Members
-
- 286 posts
Rookie Driver
Posted 25 February 2009 - 06:40 AM
Rainmaster, on Jan 21 2009, 05:47 PM, said:
I can't be sure, although the company they work with are specialists on KERS, they aren't specialists in racing KERS, which I think must be a very difficult and different challenge. I guess they have to find a way to put it into the car without screwing up the weight distribution, which affects the balance which is linked to the handling and everything else.
Saying that, I do agree, it isn't a very good explanation.
Saying that, I do agree, it isn't a very good explanation.
Wisdom is to be found with God and nowhere else. And unless the quest for wisdom brings a man to his knees in awe and reverence, knowing his own helplessness to make himself wise, wisdom remains for him a closed book
Lawrence Toombs
Some ways to be sure you could preach so as to convert nobody: "Let your supreme motive be to secure your own popularity and success. If you preach that way you're not going to say anything to offend and if you don't offend you can't convert anybody. Aim at pleasing for money and sexual favors, rather than correcting for holiness. Let your sermons be literary, flowery, ornate, flowing beautifully so your hearers never remember the lack of content. Be sparing of thought lest your sermon contain enough truth to convert someone. Avoid preaching doctrines that are offensive to the carnal mind. Deal with sin in the abstract and make no allusion to the sins of your audience. Preach salvation by grace but ignore the condemned and lost condition of the sinner, lest he should understand what you mean by grace and sense his need of it. Make no appeal to the fears of sinners, but make the impression that they have no reason to fear, God loves them. Preach the love of God and ignore the holiness of His love. Do not rebuke the worldly tendencies of the church, lest you should hurt their feelings and convert some of them. Select your themes and so present them as to attract and flatter the wealthy, aristocratic, self-indulgent, extravagant, pleasure-seeking classes and you won't convert any of them to the cross-bearing religion of Christ. Ridicule solemn earnestness in pulling sinners out of the fire and recommend by precept or example that jovial, fun-loving religion and sinners will have little respect for serious preaching. Cultivate fastidious tastes in your people by avoiding all disagreeable allusions to the last judgment and final retribution. Treat old and uncomfortable doctrines as obsolete and out of place. And so exhibit religion as to encourage the selfish pursuit of it. Make the impression upon sinners that their own safety and happiness is the supreme motive of being religious. And see to it that you say nothing to any of your hearers to demean him or her, but only what is flattering."
Charles Finney
Lawrence Toombs
Some ways to be sure you could preach so as to convert nobody: "Let your supreme motive be to secure your own popularity and success. If you preach that way you're not going to say anything to offend and if you don't offend you can't convert anybody. Aim at pleasing for money and sexual favors, rather than correcting for holiness. Let your sermons be literary, flowery, ornate, flowing beautifully so your hearers never remember the lack of content. Be sparing of thought lest your sermon contain enough truth to convert someone. Avoid preaching doctrines that are offensive to the carnal mind. Deal with sin in the abstract and make no allusion to the sins of your audience. Preach salvation by grace but ignore the condemned and lost condition of the sinner, lest he should understand what you mean by grace and sense his need of it. Make no appeal to the fears of sinners, but make the impression that they have no reason to fear, God loves them. Preach the love of God and ignore the holiness of His love. Do not rebuke the worldly tendencies of the church, lest you should hurt their feelings and convert some of them. Select your themes and so present them as to attract and flatter the wealthy, aristocratic, self-indulgent, extravagant, pleasure-seeking classes and you won't convert any of them to the cross-bearing religion of Christ. Ridicule solemn earnestness in pulling sinners out of the fire and recommend by precept or example that jovial, fun-loving religion and sinners will have little respect for serious preaching. Cultivate fastidious tastes in your people by avoiding all disagreeable allusions to the last judgment and final retribution. Treat old and uncomfortable doctrines as obsolete and out of place. And so exhibit religion as to encourage the selfish pursuit of it. Make the impression upon sinners that their own safety and happiness is the supreme motive of being religious. And see to it that you say nothing to any of your hearers to demean him or her, but only what is flattering."
Charles Finney
#24
BradSpeedMan
-
- Senior Members
-
- 7,292 posts
F1 Ace
Posted 25 February 2009 - 09:49 AM
Guys...big suprise, I love the Williams. This is the first car of the current crop I dig, maybe it's because of the livery colour, have'nt had time to compare and dissect. I hope they do well, I hope the car with their drivers kicks a##!!!!!
“We keep on working, we do our thing,” Vettel shouts over the team radio, “We are who we are!”
"Vettel is a champion. That’s not referring to his achievements, but rather to his approach to everything he does. He wins. All the time. His preparation is meticulous, his attention to detail reminiscent of Michael Schumacher at his peak, and his performance on the track is almost always flawless. Vettel is capable only of domination. He knows no other way... Vettel is not in Formula One to be liked. He is there to win. And in the words of Ayrton Senna, perhaps the greatest of all Formula One drivers, “Nice men don’t win.”"
Chris Cameron-Dow
#25
mikathegreat2
-
- Senior Members
-
- 4,897 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:Lucan, Ireland
- Interests:fapping.
Posted 25 February 2009 - 06:32 PM
I think STR have yet to release their livery, probably the same as last year!
Dan is currently playing: with himself...
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
- Mark Twain
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
- Mark Twain
#26
The Rumble Strip
-
- Senior Members
-
- 1,976 posts
F1 Ace
Posted 26 February 2009 - 11:53 PM
RBS go in 2010.
#27
mikathegreat2
-
- Senior Members
-
- 4,897 posts
F1 Ace
- Gender:Male
- Location:Lucan, Ireland
- Interests:fapping.
Posted 27 February 2009 - 01:16 PM
Team Formula One, on Feb 26 2009, 11:53 PM, said:
RBS go in 2010.
Dan is currently playing: with himself...
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
- Mark Twain
"There is nothing lower than the human race except the French."
- Mark Twain
#28
medilloni
-
- Senior Members
-
- 2,064 posts
They're all The Greatest
- Gender:Male
Posted 27 February 2009 - 01:44 PM
mikathegreat2, on Feb 27 2009, 01:16 PM, said:
That's 3 banks to leave F1 in 2010!
About time too, they do more harm than smoking
"Avoiding problems you need to face, is avoiding the life you need to live."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
"...when I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse... I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown. The dream is gone..."
#29
The Rumble Strip
-
- Senior Members
-
- 1,976 posts
F1 Ace
Posted 17 May 2009 - 04:18 PM
Cant help but think this car has gone the way of its predecessors.
Started off very well and goes backwards as other teams develop quicker than them.
Started off very well and goes backwards as other teams develop quicker than them.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
