1007 replies to this topic

[JHS18]

Massa, on 29 July 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Then, on August 18, the Nationwide Series is at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, featuring Alex Tagliani, Patrick Carpentier, and, as far as we know, Jacques Villeneuve.

It'll be easy for me to remember that date.

[Massa]

Wonder why...

Can't say I follow IndyCar these days, but I did see this...

Giorgio Pantano will be racing for Chip Ganassi this weekend at Mid-Ohio.  Charlie Kimball broke his finger in a testing crash.

Pantano's been inconsistent in his IndyCar races thus far.  In 2005, he finished fourth at Watkins Glen for Ganassi, but fourteenth in his other race.  Last year, he would have been fifth at Sonoma, but he was black-flagged for blocking on the final corner, which I think was the wrong call but whatever.  His other races in 2011, however, were totally forgettable.

I know there are some out there who want more American drivers or whatever, but you can count me out of that.  I'd be a lot more interested in an IndyCar Series that could pick up guys like Giorgio Pantano and Esteban Guerrieri who really were close to Formula One but didn't have the budgets (Guerrieri, in my opinion, should be in F1.  Pantano...I don't know if he was quite good enough), or guys like Sébastien Bourdais who just didn't work out in F1 (though he was better than you remember).

Of course, if you really want my opinion, I'd rather see Pantano, Guerrieri, and my favorites (Servià, Tagliani, Bourdais) in sports car racing so I don't have any reason to check Indy results.

[Massa]

This is the 2013 Ford in a more traditional livery:

https://twitter.com/...0941440/photo/1

All the 2013 cars, including the Chevrolet SS that we aren't allowed to see and the Dodge Charger which has no actual team, will be testing on August 7 and 8.  I really hope there are pictures.

Three things make me very interested in the new cars:

1. The aerodynamic differences, obviously.  Differentiation makes for better racing because different cars have different strengths and weaknesses over the course of a lap, a race, and a season.  That means passing and performance loss and gain and everything that makes it fun.  I realize NASCAR already has big-time differences in engines and some chassis differences, but this just adds even more.

2. The cars are going to be a lot lighter as far as weight goes.  I think this could make the cars drive a little differently, which might help for better racing, and might make for an adjustment for the drivers which could mix up the pecking order.  I know the COT, when introduced, really changed the way a lot of drivers drove, and made some older drivers a little less competitive.

3. Goodyear is working on a tire with more grip.  Usually the tradeoff with grip is quicker wear (I say usually but I don't think it'd be too wrong to say universally).  Quicker wear forces drivers to really drive, and as you see in F1, makes for really interesting strategy and results.  I also think fresh tires with more grip will add an element to the end of races: usually, there's a late-race caution, and the leaders often stay out if they're in their fuel window.  But the guys at the end of the lead lap will take tires because, hey, why not?  If the grip difference can be big enough, you'd see those guys really overtaking from the back toward the front.  Also, you need to make drivers drive, but you also need grip to allow for any kind of overtaking, so there's that balance to find.

I'm carefully optimistic about this.

[Massa]

Jeff Gordon won a rain-shortened (and delayed) race in Pocono today.  Sounds like the Pocono I know.  I attended this race from 2004 through 2010, and the last three years featured a red flag for rain (2008 and 2010), a washout that had the race run on Monday (2009), and a delayed start (2010).

Pocono reminds me of some of the best experiences I've had in racing, and some of the worst photographs anyone has ever taken.  Take a look (2005-2006 photos are webcam pictures of pictures; 2007 photos were direct from a Motorola KRZR K1m...I say this in case you ever want to replicate the quality ):

http://imgur.com/a/bkRIY

[Massa]

Fan killed by lightning at the race today:

http://www.usatoday....eway/56811334/1

[JHS18]

A real shame to hear about that. It is always a tragedy, whatever the circumstances, when a fan goes to a race and doesn't come back. Really unfortunate, R.I.P.

[Massa]

Watkins Glen this weekend for Cup and NNS.

Might rain; NNS will use rain tires, Cup will not (longer race, heavier cars, fear of a ****show).

Two road course aces have been brought in to the Cup race to challenge regulars like Ambrose, Stewart, Montoya, Gordon, Johnson, Edwards, and Busch, who are all skilled on circuits like these:

Patrick Long (#30 Inception Motorsports Toyota) - Porsche factory driver racing predominantly with Flying Lizard; class winner of Le Mans, Sebring, Petit Le Mans, and Daytona; race winner in ARCA and NASCAR K&N Pro Series

Boris Said (#32 HendrickCars.com Ford) - Nürburgring, Sebring, and Daytona winner; NASCAR Nationwide Series win at Montréal; current Grand-Am GT driver

How about Nationwide?  A few road course ringers, as they are called, are entered there:

Ron Fellows (#5 Canadian Tire Chevrolet) - Former Corvette factory driver; Le Mans, Sebring, and Daytona winner; four-time Nationwide and two-time Truck Series winner, all on road courses; current owner of Canadian Tire Motorsports Park (Mosport) in Bowmanville, ON

Miguel Paludo (#30 Duroline Chevrolet) - Camping World Truck Series driver; Porsche GT3 Cup Brasil champion

Eric Curran (#53 NDS Motorsports Dodge) - Current Grand-Am GT driver; Grand-Am class wins at Mont-Tremblant and Road America

Of course, Danica Patrick has something to prove, too, having had a certain top five robbed at the lost road race when Jacques Villeneuve punted her on the final lap of the race.

[Massa]

Fun with TV ratings:

If you had a TV blackout (as in NOTHING on screen) on a network channel (ABC, for example), you would get a 1.0 rating (1,600,000 viewers or so).

IndyCar has fallen to a new low on ABC with Mid-Ohio's race.  A 0.6.  IndyCar has been around a 0.9 for most ABC races.  A 0.6 means they got about 960,000 viewers.  On network.  I can't emphasize how horrible that is.  It was against the Olympics...but I'm pretty sure it was women's water polo on at that time, and if you can dress water polo in red, white, and blue and get Americans to watch it, well, kudos to you because I sure as hell don't watch sports I'm not interested in, regardless of who is playing.

The ALMS time-buy on ABC from Saturday got a 0.4.  I'll protect the sanctity of the sports car thread by not degrading that into a ratings thread and put that here.  F1 races at 5/6/7/8 AM on cable get more viewers than that.

When it comes to U.S. racing, we don't have nice things.  Now you know why.  No one cares...at all.

[Massa]

Dodge is expected to withdraw from NASCAR and will not compete in 2013.  They unveiled the 2013 Charger back in March at Las Vegas Motor Speedway.

[Massa]

Don't expect much change in the quality of racing next year in NASCAR (which is either good or bad, depending on how you view NASCAR's racing).  The cars are only 100 lbs lighter, and the drivers, having tested them today, say there is no difference at all in how they drive.

Allmendinger claims he tested positive for Adderall, a prescription medication for ADHD.  Allmendinger does not have ADHD, and does not have a prescription for Adderall.  In his tale, if you believe it, he explains how he took Adderall and expects to be reinstated by August (though he has no ride, as Penske already released him).  If his program is that short, then NASCAR obviously believes his story...

http://espn.go.com/r...iption-adderall

Who would ever just take a pill some guy hands to them?  Total moron, in my opinion...

[Massa]

Jay Penske, owner of IndyCar team Dragon Racing, and his brother Mark Penske (both sons of Roger) were arrested.  For a story that includes urinating, assault and battery on women, and breaking and entering, read on:

http://www.ack.net/P...akIn080912.html

[Massa]

Best finish to a NASCAR race in a very, very long time.

Kyle Busch had a huge lead with a few to go.

But Bobby Labonte is a complete, ****ing idiot who really needs to be suspended from NASCAR for a week: his engine blew, and rather than get off the racing line, the dip**** decides to lay oil ALL OVER the entire track...

The oil wasn't visible, and NASCAR didn't throw a caution, and pure excitement happened.

I am very, very glad they kept it green.  Tons of fun.  But I'm not sure why it stayed green, and I'm really not sure why Bobby Labonte didn't think to get off the track.

I enjoyed it a lot, though.  It was like watching a wet weather race in a way.  Waiting for video to share with you guys.

[Massa]

A few spins within the final 20, then the finish.

[JHS18]

That was a cool finish - thanks for posting.

NASCAR should race on more road courses. Come to Knockhill - that'd be proper comedy.

[Massa]

Agree, I wish the calendar was road courses only to be honest...and make them a little bit shorter, too...

Last NASCAR road race of the year is Saturday with Nationwide at Montréal.  Jacques Villeneuve returns to take out the rest of the field.  Alex Tagliani is also running.  Pretty sure Patrick Carpentier is coming out of retirement to do this one, too.

[JHS18]

Remembered about the Nationwide and watched it whilst keeping one eye on the ALMS. Great race, really enjoyed it. Glad Villeneuve got beaten in the end as well.

[Massa]

Villeneuve's a big-time ***wipe.  I can't believe Allgaier even bothered to apologize.  The race was strange...those restarts into the one-two complex rarely end well.  I'm surprised how much fuel economy Villeneuve could stretch, and so, so, so glad he lost.  I want Hornish to win the title, so a nice recovery for him, too, after McDowell McDowelled him.  Nothing personal against Danica, but I was glad when she pulled into the garage...as much as she deserved a good result today, they were literally only showing her car and her radio chatter the entire time I watched until her trouble.  I know she's very important for ratings and her sponsor pays ESPN a ton of money, but there are other storylines.  Consider, too, that if another car is having trouble, ESPN isn't going to show 100,000,000 angles highlighting the trackbar and U-joints.  Why is that a problem?  Well, ESPN's images helped her crew determine the problems and try to resolve them.  A different driver in a different team giving the same feedback, and they may have never known.  So over-exposure of one driver can have some kind of impact on the race.  I'm not one of those "IT'S NOT FAIR" kind of people, and Danica deserved a lot of attention today because for someone who struggled a lot in IndyCar on road courses, she's been lights-out this year.  She runs well and **** goes wrong a lot.  JR Motorsports equipment isn't particularly good, and her crew chief has a lot of trouble with the modern chassis.  So she's doing well this year and I give her a lot of credit.  But beyond the f-bomb, nothing enlightening came from 24/7 Danica coverage today.

The rumor is that Nationwide will get a fourth road course next year, going to Mosport.  It's a great track, so I hope it doesn't get modified for these cars.  Truck may join them and Truck may also go to Road America.  Expanding road racing in NASCAR can only be a good thing and I know that if there could be an opening in the calendar, Sprint Cup would go to Montréal.  The crowd is huge.

The Tagliani fanboy in me was so happy to see Villeneuve lose.  So, so, so happy.

On another note, Paul Page will leave ESPN at year's end.  He currently calls NHRA drag racing and the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest.  Page is apparently going to return to IndyCar, filling the vacancy at NBCSN as Bob Jenkins retires.  You guys know how I feel about Page so I'd be pleased, but I just hope that in his older age he is still sharp.  Jenkins gets a pass because he obviously has circumstances outside of racing weighing on him, but it's always tough to see your old favorites in the commentary box damaging their legacy, in the same way it works for drivers like Bobby Labonte who were champions and are now backmarkers.

[Massa]

And one more thing RE: Villeneuve.  I want to illustrate something.  Believe it or not, a lot of NASCAR drivers say they love racing against Kyle Busch because, while he's aggressive, he's really clean and doesn't pull cheap shots.

Earlier in the race, Kyle Busch and Kyle Kelley made contact coming out of turn two.  Kelley began to spin and Busch immediately backed off, allowing Kelley to make one hell of an awesome save (but of course this got no replay).  Busch didn't force it...he let Kelley gather it back up and got around him the right way.  That's how you race hard, but with respect.

Villeneuve comes out of two and hits Tagliani.  Tagliani starts to spin and Villeneuve slams the gas until he dumps him.  That's classless.  He's really a hack and everyone in the garage knows it.  I can't wait for someone to just give him his one day.

[Massa]

The 2013 Sprint Cup cars that were tested at Martinsville had carbon fiber bodies.  NASCAR has yet to approve this, but it is expected that at least some parts of the body will be carbon fiber.

I love this.  It's time to turn stock cars into racecars.  The other thing...if you make it more expensive to upgrade to the 2013 spec, you're going to see start and park teams eliminated.  Now, I know NASCAR doesn't want to have fewer cars in their races, as the TV contract guarantees 43, but it would be so nice to see the next TV contract (negotiated this year and next for 2015) not make that guarantee, such that start-and-park can be banned.

I know a lot of people will complain about "haves" and "have-nots" but that's racing.  It's auto racing, not driver racing.  It's supposed to be about bringing the absolute best car first, and then having the best driver to drive it as a secondary measure.  I'm 100% fine if Hendrick, Roush, Penske, and Gibbs show up with carbon fiber and JTG-Daugherty, Front Row, and Furniture Row are tooting around with sheet metal.  If they're going to dominate (and they already do), they may as well be allowed to dominate for bringing something better.

[JHS18]

I had an (interesting for me, anyway) thought whilst watching the Nationwide race, and also based on the NASCAR Cup race at Watkins Glen.

It is clear from what I've seen and read that the two road course races, particularly at the Glen, were much more exciting than most of the races on ovals so far this season. The Nationwide also proved how good (if a little chaotic) the racing can be.

The idea I had was this: why not create something like an officially NASCAR licensed championship, that runs ONLY on road and street courses? Almost like how that old Trans-Am series used to be. Take inspiration from how the Nationwide cars look (which I think look great), how Trans-Am used to be, and how V8 Supercars is now and surely you couldn't go too far wrong...

But I'm probably completely wrong. You will probably know much more than me on whether the type of thing I'm talking about already exists or very good reasons if it doesn't.

Edited by JHS18, 19 August 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Massa]

I think it's a great idea, obviously.  If I had my way, Sprint Cup, Nationwide, and Camping World Truck wouldn't have any oval races.  The appeal of oval racing, to me, is the pure speed of it, but obviously, Indy is faster on ovals, and the really fast ovals (Daytona and Talladega, which are so fast you need an FIA Platinum license to run on them, hence Brian Vickers is a Platinum-rated driver at Le Mans...bizarre, I know) require restrictor plates to make the cars slower, eliminating the speed element from it.

Meanwhile, the appeal of stock car racing, to me, is the ability to make contact and therefore take big chances.  But with the aerodynamics playing a huge role on big ovals, you can't do that anymore.  Only on road courses where, in a stock car, the aero doesn't matter as much because these cars don't turn anyway.

I think NASCAR's biggest reasons not to do it:

1. They don't want to compete with themselves.  There would be people, like me or you, who would probably watch a lot more of the road racing series than the main one.  Likewise, NASCAR likes to schedule companion weekends, where all the series race at the same track.  Scheduling a road course series would be a nightmare, because it would have to be racing on opposite ends of the country to not detract from race-goers for the other events.

Solution: Run it in warm climates (Florida, Texas, California) during the off-season.

2. NASCAR owns Grand-Am, which sanctions the Rolex Sports Car Series, the Continental Tire Series (which they call "stock cars" and in a pure sense, they are, in a bizarre way), and the North American Ferrari Challenge.  They also wanted to sanction an American DTM in 2013 but it's never going to happen.  So they do have plans in road racing, but I think they want to keep it differentiated from NASCAR's main series.

Solution: Sell Grand-Am to Dr. Don Panoz who can merge it into ALMS.

At present, the trend is away from road courses.  The NASCAR Canadian Tire Series runs just 5 road courses now.  The NASCAR Toyota Series in Mexico has become a predominantly oval series as well (their major road course is an oval with a chicane in it ), even at tracks like Hermanos Rodríguez (the former F1 course) and Miguel E. Abed (WTCC raced there) that have both ovals and road courses.

Then there's the NASCAR Euro Racecar Series, which runs almost exclusively on road courses, but for three races on the same oval in Tours.  They run some interesting tracks, and I even recognize Javier Villa from GP2 and James Winslow from Atlantics...

http://hometracks.na....com/races/EURO
http://www.racecarse...r-teams-gb.html

SparkNotes: I like the idea a lot, but don't think NASCAR would bite.

[JHS18]

Good points, all of them - I for one will be interested to see whether NASCAR does start adding a few more road courses to the Cup schedule over the next few years, but I suspect not much will change. It'd definitely be cool to have something like a Watkins Glen in the Chase though to mix things up nicely.

Just wondering are road courses still a bit of a sour subject with the majority of NASCAR fans, or, especially after an ending like Watkins Glen, have more fans come to support them?

I guess the only way a NASCAR road/street racing series would succeed is if some or all of the manufacturers supported it. But it'd be cool to have something similar to Nationwide cars racing regularly on road courses - heavy cars, with a lot of power, a lot of mechanical grip but not much aerodynamic grip - would produce some great racing on the basis of things we've seen before, and would probably be quite physical to drive as well. It'd be great if they could produce rain tyres too.

Also, whilst we're on the subject, what did happen to Trans-Am?

Edited by JHS18, 19 August 2012 - 07:09 PM.

[Massa]

They actually have rain tires for both Nationwide and Cup.  They are used in Nationwide in race situations.  They are not used in Cup under any circumstances, so why they exist, I don't know.

NASCAR have expressed interest in adding more road courses, but they will not extend the calendar beyond the 36 races they currently have.  Because NASCAR is still a very healthy event, even as attendance has declined, NASCAR has the least amount of schedule turnover of just about any professional series despite having the largest calendar.  No one wants to give up a race date.  The only way to get on NASCAR's calendar is to buy a track that already has a race for the sole purpose of taking that race off and putting your race on.  So, I too don't expect to see any races really added.  Iowa Speedway and Circuit Gilles Villeneuve both want Cup dates, but no Cup race ever fails, which is obviously a good thing for the health of the sport, but frustrating if you want to see new venues.

I do think support for road racing in NASCAR has increased.  Compared to other Sprint Cup races, Sonoma and Watkins Glen are about equal in TV viewership, though still a little on the low side.  The Nationwide road courses...there's no meaningful data because the ratings swell when Danica is at the front and dive when she isn't, so with her running so well at Road America and Montréal, they're actually really high.

I think with the potential of getting different viewers from normal for road races (i.e. me; I don't watch many ovals but don't miss the road courses), the TV networks like it (in fact, they put the NNS from Watkins Glen on ABC).  Most weeks, you get stuck in viewer redundancy, where the same people watch every NASCAR race, so your advertisements and sponsorships aren't reaching anyone new, but you can get some different fans who will watch a road course.

I'd love stock car road racing on a more regular basis.  Getting the Truck Series back on road courses next year as planned would be nice.



Dramatic finish to today's race, by the way.  Kind of cool for an oval.

RE: Trans-Am.  It folded in 2005 due to short fields and no interest.  It was re-born as something closer to a club racing series in 2009.  SCCA sold it for 2012 to a different group, but still sanctions the races.  Highlights from the first five rounds can be found on GoRacingTV, the owners of the series.

http://www.goracingt...coverage-shows/

[Massa]

Robin Miller says four or five team owners are trying to buy the IndyCar Series from the Hulman-George family.

We've been here before...

[JHS18]

Thanks for the information - that was an interesting read. It does seem odd that NASCAR goes to the same venues every year with no alternatives, but it seems like there are good reasons for that from what you say. Oh well, hopefully one day someone will create the championship that we want!

Read that NASCAR are investigating Mark Martin's crash from yesterday. Have to say it looked a very nasty one, however freak it was, and could have been much worse. Amazed me that there are still unprotected pit wall ends around and that something similar has not happened in the past.

[Massa]

From 1995 to 2003, Bobby Labonte was third among all drivers in NASCAR Sprint Cup wins during that time with 21.

Now he's taken out the leader two weeks in a row.  Oiling the track at Watkins Glen to ruin Kyle Busch's race and ultimately his chance of making the Chase, and now taking out Mark Martin by spinning.

Please retire, Bobby.  PLEASE.

NASCAR is extremely reactive about safety.  They don't even have a full-time safety team; each week it's a different set of volunteers.  NASCAR never foresees a problem with anything they do; they just respond once the problem happens.  They wait for the worst possible things to transpire prior to acting.

To be fair, most racing series are like that.  Even F1.  Take the extra driver protection around the cockpit that was implemented after Webber and someone else's crash at Melbourne.  They waited for the problem to happen before addressing the problem.  I don't think it's correct to be reactive, but they all are.

I'm not sure how it didn't dawn on them that the main pit walls have some protection on the ends, so that all other openings would be exactly the same and you'd want protection.

But...they let this happen with an unsecured opening...



And then they let this happen at the same track...unsecured opening again...



So...

[Massa]

Miller: four or five team owners and one non-team owner are trying to purchase the sport.  Some of the team owners already have "tried and failed" at running it before, in his words.  That leads me to believe Kevin Kalkhoven (who ran Champ Car) is involved.

Tony George technically is a team owner with Ed Carpenter Racing, but it'd be awkward if he were trying to buy the series from his own family.  Still, if it's to get Randy Bernard out, I can see it.

Bobby Rahal ran CART for a while, and Roger Penske has run open-wheel unofficially forever and still does.

The issue is the cost of the DW12 and replacement parts being much higher than Randy Bernard promised.

[JHS18]

Massa, on 20 August 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

The issue is the cost of the DW12 and replacement parts being much higher than Randy Bernard promised.

Now where have I heard that before?

Ah yes, BTCC with the NGTC. Supposed to be a "cost cut" car, and for many teams running an NGTC is turning out to be more expensive than an old S2000.

Seems there's quite a few championships that like to lie when talk of new regulations is around.

[Massa]

It depends.

Most estimations of costs are always wrong.  Not necessarily lies, and more just stupidity to believe any estimation of the cost of something won't increase by some percentage.

Things that are "cost-cutting" rather than exact figures, on the other hand, usually refer to long-term reduction in costs than short-term ones.

Every series has a lot of complaining when a new car comes in.  Part of it's resistance to change, part of it's high up-front costs.  But usually, a series doesn't guarantee an exact cost per part, only for the supplier to jack those prices up 25% (assuming the owners aren't exaggerating that).  Not sure if the BTCC did that or not.

To me, the bigger issue is aerokits.  They said we'd have them this year, but then they were delayed to 2013.  And now they're cancelled.  So you have the team owners who don't want aerokits, you have the series that caved in to the team owners, and now you have Honda and Chevrolet who are upset that there are no aerokits because that was their inspiration, more than the engines, to join.  If you p**s Honda and Chevrolet off enough, that's a tough place to be, and I have to say I've lost a ton of interest knowing there won't be aerokits.  I just have no interest in watching spec racing.

[Massa]

This is strange and moderately upsetting:

http://deadspin.com/5936579/

On another note, Aaron Fike was arrested in July 2007 for possession of heroin.  He was suspended from NASCAR on July 11, 2007.  Five years, one month, and ten days later, Aaron Fike has been reinstated to NASCAR.  He is currently racing in USAC.