94 replies to this topic

[dribbler]

AleHop, on 24 February 2011 - 05:07 AM, said:

For the time being, Mike wins.

Of course, it's meaningless winter testing.

Only in that it's seemingly not that fast. How one can comment that it might understeer, based on a picture is beyond me.

[Caesar]

i think that this years mclaren is ugly, they had beautiful cars previous years but this one...   when i saw it for the first time i said WTF!
how fast is it only they know . they looked lost because they had two types of exhaust system to test so that test times don't mean nothing.
ferrari is this year most beautiful car

[BradSpeedMan]

Caesar, on 24 February 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

i think that this years mclaren is ugly, they had beautiful cars previous years but this one...   when i saw it for the first time i said WTF!
how fast is it only they know . they looked lost because they had two types of exhaust system to test so that test times don't mean nothing.
ferrari is this year most beautiful car

I can only presume you're making a joke

[Caesar]

BradSpeedMan, on 24 February 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:

I can only presume you're making a joke

no, it is just my opinion on mclaren looks

[Kopite Girl]

The insight and knowledge that both Craig and Steve provide is awesome. Just wanted to take the time to say thanks you guys for making it understandable for someone who loves the sport but isn't mechanically minded that much.

Edited by Kopite Girl, 25 February 2011 - 01:18 AM.

[dribbler]

Kopite Girl, on 25 February 2011 - 01:17 AM, said:

The insight and knowledge that both Craig and Steve provide is awesome. Just wanted to take the time to say thanks you guys for making it understandable for someone who loves the sport but isn't mechanically minded that much.

No problem. As I said in my PM to you; round wheels work better than rectangular ones (I have inside information on this - but it's a secret). Having fuel in the car makes it go a lot faster than one without any. This scientific analysis is also true when applied to the driver. Having one makes the car go around corners easier.

Cheese filled tyres do not work, neither do exhausts made of rhubarb (unless smothered with industrial grade custard, for cooling purposes).

[HandyNZL]

Actually you could get around corners better without a driver as then you could have more downforce and higher cornering G-forces, and thus be faster into and out of corners.  Humans are the limiting factor here.

You can't have drivers blacking out in the middle of a corner can we? Or, can we?

[Caesar]

HandyNZL, on 25 February 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Actually you could get around corners better without a driver as then you could have more downforce and higher cornering G-forces, and thus be faster into and out of corners.  Humans are the limiting factor here.

You can't have drivers blacking out in the middle of a corner can we? Or, can we?

if hamilton gets out of the track in a middle of the corner does that make him "black out in the middle of the corner" ?

[Caesar]

HandyNZL, on 25 February 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

Actually you could get around corners better without a driver as then you could have more downforce and higher cornering G-forces, and thus be faster into and out of corners.  Humans are the limiting factor here.

You can't have drivers blacking out in the middle of a corner can we? Or, can we?

how is that possible, please explain, i am interested. this isn't a joke.

[HandyNZL]

1. That made me chuckle...nice pun

2. We mere mortals start to black out around 8G, or less.  The fastest way around a racetrack is to be nearest your maximum pace at all times, including through the corners...infact you can have the fastest straight line speed, but if your speed through turns is slow, then you are not going to have a fast time.  The basic physics is that if you are going fast and you turn, then you either have to take a long wide sweep, or you just continue going straight ahead.  Increasing downforce lets you do two things....tighten the sweep radius you need to take through a corner, and take the corner faster as you will have less tendency to understeer straight off the corner.  Of course the faster you go through a lesser radius then the higher the G-forces experienced.  As mentioned, mere mortal humans black out around 8G (or less), not to mention the other uncomfortable stuff, pressure on the heart and its ability to pump blood etc....so there becomes a limit to the speed and radius a car can turn...however there is little limit to downforce.  So if you remove the human, you can go faster through a corner, turn a tighter corner, and just crank up the downforce and let the car take 10, 20, 30G....like a slot car....and get a faster lap time.

[Caesar]

HandyNZL, on 25 February 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

1. That made me chuckle...nice pun

2. We mere mortals start to black out around 8G, or less.  The fastest way around a racetrack is to be nearest your maximum pace at all times, including through the corners...infact you can have the fastest straight line speed, but if your speed through turns is slow, then you are not going to have a fast time.  The basic physics is that if you are going fast and you turn, then you either have to take a long wide sweep, or you just continue going straight ahead.  Increasing downforce lets you do two things....tighten the sweep radius you need to take through a corner, and take the corner faster as you will have less tendency to understeer straight off the corner.  Of course the faster you go through a lesser radius then the higher the G-forces experienced.  As mentioned, mere mortal humans black out around 8G (or less), not to mention the other uncomfortable stuff, pressure on the heart and its ability to pump blood etc....so there becomes a limit to the speed and radius a car can turn...however there is little limit to downforce.  So if you remove the human, you can go faster through a corner, turn a tighter corner, and just crank up the downforce and let the car take 10, 20, 30G....like a slot car....and get a faster lap time.

ok, thanks. one more question. what 'kind' of downforce red bull car produces? is it just great aero-package, or combination of aero package, suspension , mechanical grip, floor, controling exhaust pressure...? that were two questions

[AleHop]

dribbler, on 24 February 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

Only in that it's seemingly not that fast. How one can comment that it might understeer, based on a picture is beyond me.

I don't know either, it has to be influenced by intuition. Maybe if L-shape sidepods cars in the past had a tendency to understeer it can make you assume that. I think I read Button saying the MP4-26 seemed to suit him better than the MP4-25, or maybe it was because of the tyres. But maybe not because of understeer.

http://www.grid1.tv/...s-driving-style

[F1 FANatic]

Honestly, to me it just looks like someone mixed up the sidepods and screwed them onto the car upside down on the wrong side.  If you look at pictures of the other cars they too have L shaped sidepods but the foot of the L is by the body of the car and not floating out by the wheels.

[monza gorilla]

WTF?


Radar? Gun turret? Or some sort of load sensing desperation device?

Edit: Photo credit Sutton Images.

Edited by monza gorilla, 08 March 2011 - 11:16 AM.

[Quiet One]

monza gorilla, on 08 March 2011 - 11:15 AM, said:

WTF?


Radar? Gun turret? Or some sort of load sensing desperation device?

Edit: Photo credit Sutton Images.

Teleprompter.

"No...we...do...not...have...team...borders??"

[HandyNZL]

The FIA gets confused and instead of making Red Bull Racing fit strengthening to their wing, they enforce McLaren to don the FIA Technical Working Groups latest whizz-bang device......

[HandyNZL]

But seriously folks, it's pretty obvious that its a TV antenna for recording the level of downforce being generated by the front wing.  The struts will have sensors either in them, or inside the bubble.

I have faith in Macca that they are not that far behind, and they are second to none in getting on top of things even if it really were a little slow.  Macca actually test on test days, and not just run around in circles...they learn what is going on with the car, exampled here in this load sense contraption, and the weather vanes seen at other times, and the day glow paint.

[HandyNZL]

.....witnessed by Button's second fastest time of the day in testing.....

...I keep the faith....

[HandyNZL]

My knob is bigger than yours....

[james]

They probably put it there just to mess with people. Kind of like when they had a car with 4 mirrors.

[Quiet One]

james, on 08 March 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

They probably put it there just to mess with people. Kind of like when they had a car with 4 mirrors.

Funny, to me it looks as if it had the phrase "We are completely clueless about what to do with our car" written all over its Alien lookalike surface.

[james]

Sure, maybe if you live in reality.

[Quiet One]

james, on 09 March 2011 - 04:17 PM, said:

Sure, maybe if you live in reality.

Apparently, I'm in good company with my opinion. Eddie Jordan, Brundle and Coulthard said that the McLaren is a mess. Man, do I feel proud to agree with Eddie!

I am not so sure that it is THAT bad. McLaren has turned sandbagging to a yearly ritual. So, the car isn't that bad as they want us to think. But probably worse than they want.

[Autumnpuma]

To be fair, Andres, none of those three are familiar with aero or car design but in this case they seem to be correct. They probably read the right tech blogs. The big deciding factor this year will be what teams can make Red Bull's radical diminishing sidepod work. Airflow over the rear beam is going to be crucial. And while teams like Ferrari, Red Bull and Red Bull Jr. are exploring this, McLaren and Toleman are busy making their exhausts backwards and warping their radiator inlets. Pitiful.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on 09 March 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

To be fair, Andres, none of those three are familiar with aero or car design but in this case they seem to be correct. They probably read the right tech blogs. The big deciding factor this year will be what teams can make Red Bull's radical diminishing sidepod work. Airflow over the rear beam is going to be crucial. And while teams like Ferrari, Red Bull and Red Bull Jr. are exploring this, McLaren and Toleman are busy making their exhausts backwards and warping their radiator inlets. Pitiful.

I know perhaps 0,0001% of what THEY know, to be fair and I'm quite sure I'm overestimating myself there. Then again, like you said, they are probably right. I have no idea about inlets, exhausts or anything. I can barely distinguish Button from Hamilton, to be honest. That being said, ignorants like myself had to resort to indirect but not always so misleading signs. In this case, signs of a wonderful car seriously sandabgging are rather poor.
I usually ignore lap times and drivers and team members comments. But signs like flashy testing instruments sounds like they are missing some data they are desperate to get. And if you add De La Rosa being brought back from the dead smells like desperation for some raw data and serious input.

At the risk of starting another religious war here, my gut feeling is that the lack of serious driver input is what hurt them most or, at least, what they are thinking is to blame for poor results.If anybody thinks I'm typing this with an ear to ear grin because either Macca or Lewis are in trouble, then you are wrong. I honestly wish them to be as competitive as they can. At this moment I'd rather see this happening to Vettel/RBR.

[AleHop]

Quiet One, on 09 March 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

At the risk of starting another religious war here, my gut feeling is that the lack of serious driver input is what hurt them most or, at least, what they are thinking is to blame for poor results.If anybody thinks I'm typing this with an ear to ear grin because either Macca or Lewis are in trouble, then you are wrong. I honestly wish them to be as competitive as they can. At this moment I'd rather see this happening to Vettel/RBR.

Probably some of that too but the design had to be poor in the first place. Both Hamilton and Button are World Champions, whatever that means these days. I think de la Rosa can bring a lot of experience and work, he isn't the fastest but might be able to lend a helping hand to engineers about what the MP4-26 lacks.

I'm afraid we're going to see Vettel's finger very often. Hopefully he shows the finger on Saturdays and gets crossed on Sundays.

[BradSpeedMan]

AleHop, on 10 March 2011 - 02:31 AM, said:

Probably some of that too but the design had to be poor in the first place. Both Hamilton and Button are World Champions, whatever that means these days. I think de la Rosa can bring a lot of experience and work, he isn't the fastest but might be able to lend a helping hand to engineers about what the MP4-26 lacks.

lovely stuff

AleHop, on 10 March 2011 - 02:31 AM, said:

I'm afraid we're going to see Vettel's finger very often. Hopefully he shows the finger on Saturdays and gets crossed on Sundays.

hopefully NOT on Sundays

[Autumnpuma]

Quiet One, on 09 March 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

I know perhaps 0,0001% of what THEY know, to be fair and I'm quite sure I'm overestimating myself there. Then again, like you said, they are probably right. I have no idea about inlets, exhausts or anything. I can barely distinguish Button from Hamilton, to be honest. That being said, ignorants like myself had to resort to indirect but not always so misleading signs. In this case, signs of a wonderful car seriously sandabgging are rather poor.
I usually ignore lap times and drivers and team members comments. But signs like flashy testing instruments sounds like they are missing some data they are desperate to get. And if you add De La Rosa being brought back from the dead smells like desperation for some raw data and serious input.

At the risk of starting another religious war here, my gut feeling is that the lack of serious driver input is what hurt them most or, at least, what they are thinking is to blame for poor results.If anybody thinks I'm typing this with an ear to ear grin because either Macca or Lewis are in trouble, then you are wrong. I honestly wish them to be as competitive as they can. At this moment I'd rather see this happening to Vettel/RBR.

Well, from what I can gather, they're running tests on the airflow under the car and around the sidepods. Probably other areas as well, but primarily those two. They're trying to determine which exhaust configuration is best. One way has the exhaust exiting the front and under the car and the other way has it exiting to blow on the edges of the beam wing and diffuser. From the few race-distance lap times I'd say both are way off. Driver input, I would guess, is not that important as they're not trying to figure out precise track set-ups but rather overall speed comparisons. All the drivers need do is be consistent. I figure both drivers and testers can do that much.

[Autumnpuma]

Ah, I finally scrolled up and read some responses to my initial post in this thread. Because three people I respect have questions on my guesswork here, I think I'll respond.

Why do I think the car will be prone to overheating? Placing the radiator inlets outboard like they have done puts it into the turbulent flow of air from the front tyres which may compromise cooling. They've only left a small section to cool the electronics. Too small in my opinion. Add to that the split function ducting (split between cooling the engine and the KERS) on the roll-bar intake and I see something too complex to work well.

Why do I think the car will understeer? More weight in the back from the KERS and not enough attention to the front of the car. They went for more downforce a the rear and not enough at the front. These cars already tend to understeer and I think McLaren's drivers tend to flatter the cars. Jens' early turn-in cancels most of the understeer and Hammy's rough turn-in does the same.

How can I tell all this from a photo? I can't. I trust a combination of my own knowledge and that of a few engineer bloggers/writers I follow.  Craig Scarborough being the main source of my tech information.

And finally, I don't know why a few people here expect me to be right all the time. This is all guesswork based on some facts here and there. Lighten up.

[Quiet One]

Autumnpuma, on 10 March 2011 - 03:44 AM, said:

Well, from what I can gather, they're running tests on the airflow under the car and around the sidepods. Probably other areas as well, but primarily those two. They're trying to determine which exhaust configuration is best. One way has the exhaust exiting the front and under the car and the other way has it exiting to blow on the edges of the beam wing and diffuser. From the few race-distance lap times I'd say both are way off. Driver input, I would guess, is not that important as they're not trying to figure out precise track set-ups but rather overall speed comparisons. All the drivers need do is be consistent. I figure both drivers and testers can do that much.

Sadly, what you say makes a lot of sense.