176 replies to this topic

[Massa]

On the contrary, I think the USGP will be better-attended this year than last year.

Oddly enough, actually, the Circuit of the Americas completely sold out non-license tickets (as simply as possible, seats in "prime" locations require the purchase of a license to that seat for every event held at COTA in the year for some number of years; the rest of the seats are sold on an event-by-event, year-by-year basis.  The latter category sold out) and are building additional grandstands for the race.  I have no idea what their capacity is...

...and it will still be a huge money-loser on the sanctioning fee alone (not the cost of production) unless they sell ~150,000 tickets which even NASCAR can't do at a much lower price.  To pay off construction and sanctioning fee in ten years (let's pretend it gets ten years, and let's pretend ticket sales are their only revenue when we know that's not true at all), they would need to sell 300,000 $200 tickets every single year, which is hard to do when I assume capacity is more like 100,000 or so.

And we'd still be losing money then, because there are more costs than just sanctioning fee and construction.  Paying staff, for one...

Ten Grands Prix will cost well over $600,000,000 in Austin.  $300,000,000 to build it, and $300,000,000 to sanction it (the local government will pay those fees).  You can't tell me the investors ever see their $300,000,000 again.  And you can't tell me the government sees $300,000,000 in benefits (which isn't really the right way to look at it...the money comes from taxpayers...taxpayers will see an increase of a few dollars at most per year for the Grand Prix...will each and every tax payer get a few dollars worth of benefits from the GP?  Who knows, but theoretically, multiple people can benefit from the same thing the GP brings, so it wouldn't total $300,000,000 for the government but it would total the few dollars for every person in the perfect world, where it will probably total a lot for Wild Bubba that will then be taxed by the government to get something back into the fund which would then put more than the $30,000,000 sanctioning fee in theoretically if taxable income increased as a whole as a result of a Grand Prix which would then make everyone mad because now the government has more money than they need for the race and all that well anyway there'd probably be a little increase for some others and nothing for many and then they'll all realize that there might not actually be any kind of tax increase at all because the money's been sitting in a fund to attract sporting events to Austin and if you're paying the money into the fund anyway you may as well get the sporting event...it's more of an issue of people wanting to cut out the tax that they didn't realize they were paying and were therefore fine with when it was doing nothing, but are now angry about when it is doing something, rather than people resisting a new one, though I think they think it's a new one and I sort of don't know if it is or isn't).

Say what you want about Ecclestone, but anyone who can get twenty races on a calendar with more wanting a piece despite the economics of hosting a Grand Prix being pretty horrendous for any entity, public or private.  Is it a short-term approach?  Yeah.  But it's a long short term and I don't lose much sleep over Grands Prix coming and going.

SparkNotes: I don't know how I feel about the cost to host a race but enough venues feel pretty damn good about it and that's what counts.

[Massa]

The rumors about a return to Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez in Mexico for 2013 are heating up once more.  It's a potential replacement for Valencia...even though the New Jersey race was the confirmed replacement for Valencia, which was confirmed to be alternating with Barcelona.  Looks like neither of those is the case anymore, or at least for the moment.

It's a pretty good track; I liked the Champ Car and NASCAR races there.



As you can see, Champ Car neutered the track a bit with a horribly tight chicane.  I assume that, whether for safety or out of arrogance, Tilke will make changes to the circuit if it comes back (though, to be fair, his changes will look a lot more professional than that chicane).

In my opinion, there are two types of tracks that have real merit:

1. Tracks that separate the best drivers from the other drivers.  I consider tracks like Monte Carlo and Suzuka to be in this category.  It takes such a precision to get around circuits like those, and because the driving is so prescribed by the constraints of difficulty and, in some cases, barriers, it's very hard to differentiate oneself in a meaningful way.  Drivers who can get those extra tenths on tracks like this, to me, are showing something really, really special because there's just not much there for them to find.

2. Tracks that separate the drivers from ordinary people.  In F1, that's Spa and Monza, for starters, with places like the real Nüburgring, Circuit de la Sarthe, or Indianapolis in other racing domains.  These venues demand extreme bravery that none of us key board crew chiefs have.  These tracks can separate the best from the others, too, in that some are more brave than others (but all are brave enough to be there)...i.e. overtaking in unthinkable places while the car is on edge.  And not everyone has the car control to hold it through successive blind corners at speed while the car skates around.  Still, these are tracks where you expect differentiation among drivers, so what really stands out is just the art of cars on the track and how every single driver out there is so much better than you, the fan, could have ever been.

Note how many tracks in one category, are also in the other, at least in sections or corners if not throughout the entire layout.

I think both of those types of tracks capture the essence and make up the most interesting parts in F1.  Now, those aren't the only considerations in designing a track.  Safety obviously has a role, perhaps nobly, or perhaps due to corporate sponsorships and insurance reasons.  There are also tracks, not so much in F1 but prevalent in the U.S., that are designed with overtaking at the forefront.  Personally, I don't think facilitating passing is an objective that really belongs in F1 track design, but I do see where you can argue for it, and where it fits in the motorsport world.

So, what does Tilke do?  Most of the time, and not all of his tracks are terrible, just redundant, his tracks don't do much to make us witness the pure talent of some drivers over others and the pure talent of all drivers over ourselves.  And to me, those two things make racing so compelling.  Yeah, those elements exist on every track in every series, but they just aren't pronounced on most of Tilke's tracks, and that's why I'm not sure I like the idea of him touching tracks that existed long before his did.  No track is "right" because of history, or because that's how it was designed.  You have to be modern and change.  I just would like to see someone else administer those changes for once.

(But that's such a cliché opinion, to be against Tilke, so I feel stupid for writing it).

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Interesting....

I think its hard generalising about tracks as tyres, regulations and weather all have a massive impact on the amount of perceived "fun" of a track.

Magny Cours being one of the dullest tracks to watch I remember being brought alive when it rained one year.... Hungaroring, normally dull as hell was way more interesting this year because of tyres and DRS.... Monaco is no doubt special, but the racing there is pretty dire, very little overtaking and quite processional.

Agree that some of Tilke's designs can be a bit anti-septic but then I can recall some thrilling races in Bahrain, Malaysia, etc....

Its only in the last 2 years that with fewer regulation changes, cars are a lot closer - its interesting to see how they cope on all the tracks - look how many different winners we have had....

So not sure yet if I would blame Tilke.....

[Massa]

I don't blame Tilke for a lack of overtaking because 1) there isn't a lack of overtaking anymore and 2) it never was Tilke's job to create overtaking.

However, I think Tilke is one of a number of factors that made overtaking such a priority.  Basically, it's my opinion that Tilke's tracks overstate the need for overtaking in F1.

A race at Monaco, or at Spa, or outside of F1 at La Sarthe, at Watkins Glen, at Mosport, at Road America, or on the oval at Indianapolis...to me, they don't need overtaking to be interesting.  I watch races at those tracks and just think "wow, the best drivers are absolutely so much better than the rest of them, and all of these drivers are just so much better and braver than the ordinary person, and these cars are so damn fast and corner so well."  It's so exciting to me to watch fast cars and fast drivers on a track where you either need to be really special to find an advantage, or really courageous, or both.  If they cameras are someone who is really on it at one of those tracks, overtaking won't cross my mind at all because it's just beauty to see a skilled driver in an extraordinary car pushing so hard on a timeless track.

Tilke's tracks, though, have some interesting pieces to them, I won't deny that, and some are better as wholes than others.  Still, I don't get that feeling of amazement watching someone drive around a Tilke track.  Is part of that bias, because there's so much hype around "classic" venues?  Sure, I'd say that plays into it.  But it just always feels, to me, like something's missing from Tilke's designs, something that will be really impressive to watch drivers cope with, to watch the cars cope with, etc.  Turn 8 at Turkey was an example of how Tilke can get it right.

To be honest, I think that, if you have a race where the cars are close, many of Tilke's tracks will facilitate overtaking better than the others.  But there's also a need for overtaking/close running/tire strategy to make a Tilke race interesting, whereas I can always appreciate other races because hell, these cars are vicious and these drivers are damn good.

Tilke highlights a lack of overtaking; other tracks hide it...and then you get into personal preference, of course, about how much overtaking should there be, and how easy should it be, and what makes a good race and a good track, and there's no right answer there.

I guess my point is: it's hard to throw a bunch of romanticized, clichés about racing on a Tilke race, and it's easy to do that on a classic one.

[JHS18]

Spa was confirmed for another three years yesterday on a more favourable financial deal. There will be no alteration with another race.

Great news. The best track F1 visits and quite possibly one of the very best in the world as well.

[dribbler]

Massa, on 10 August 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Tilke's tracks, though, have some interesting pieces to them, I won't deny that, and some are better as wholes than others.  Still, I don't get that feeling of amazement watching someone drive around a Tilke track.  Is part of that bias, because there's so much hype around "classic" venues?  Sure, I'd say that plays into it.  But it just always feels, to me, like something's missing from Tilke's designs, something that will be really impressive to watch drivers cope with, to watch the cars cope with, etc.  Turn 8 at Turkey was an example of how Tilke can get it right.

It's an interesting question. I think the answer lies in your last line; calling a corner 'Turn 8' almost automatically makes it devoid of passion.

With the onset of all drivers referring to all corners by number, corner names are all but dissappearing. Please, Track Designer 1 (or Herman), let's have names again.

Personal favourites for the delight their very sound conjurs up would have to be;

Eau Rouge
Blanchimont
Parabolica
Lesmo
Varianta Alta
Mirabeau
Stow
130R
Spoon
Degna

[Peeweev]

I would love to see a "fans track" which would be made up of lots of different corners from around the world. Prehaps they could be voted on so maybe the drivers could vote for one and that gets put on, the rest of the pit crews/factory guys get one and the rest are opened to the public to vote for their favorite. Doubt it will ever happen, and even if it did im not sure how good the racing would be, but it would certainly produce an interesting desgin!

[Massa]

That's sort of what the Circuit of the Americas in Texas tried to do; all the corners are inspired by corners from other tracks.  Obviously, the corners were selected by former promoter Tavo Hellmund, and not by fans or drivers or mechanics, and I am honestly too stupid to know if they did a good job replicating them or not.

Also, the 24 Hours of Le Mans has been moved to June 22-23 to avoid conflict with F1, which means there will be a Grand Prix on June 16.  If Montréal keeps its June 9 date, the only race that could possibly be run one week later is Weehawken, New Jersey.  I think this confirms the Grand Prix of America at Port Imperial is still happening.

Only other possibility is that Montréal was moved to June 16, given that Valencia's not happening, so they can give it more buffer on both sides.

[PaulCrossling]

Peeweev, on 01 September 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

I would love to see a "fans track" which would be made up of lots of different corners from around the world. Prehaps they could be voted on so maybe the drivers could vote for one and that gets put on, the rest of the pit crews/factory guys get one and the rest are opened to the public to vote for their favorite. Doubt it will ever happen, and even if it did im not sure how good the racing would be, but it would certainly produce an interesting desgin!

If they did that they would have to specify which direction the 'fans corner' went in, theres nothing worse that designing a track and then realising that they two ends to not meet up

[Massa]

Apparently Magny-Cours applied to be on the 2013 calendar.

Not sure how that one fits.  Ecclestone confirmed that there would be 20 races next year.  So far, 18 are contracted (17 from this year plus New Jersey, which is actually happening).  Valencia's canceled.  Suzuka and Singapore do not have contracts for 2013 yet but presumably will.

Basically, the only in for Magny-Cours would be a cancelation of Suzuka or Singapore, the latter of which won't happen given that F1 is listed in Singapore and Singapore's an important market for them to be in.  I'd have a hard time seeing a calendar without a Japanese Grand Prix, though I guess with no Japanese manufacturers, and Kamui Kobayashi's inability to attract Japanese sponsors combined with the possibility of him not being on the grid next year, there might not be much financial support for it.

That all said, I don't expect any changes for 2013 beyond Valencia losing its date and New Jersey replacing it, set to be run on June 16, the weekend after Montréal.

[JHS18]

According to this week's Autosport magazine, both Korea and India are at risk of falling off the calendar. Then there's the doubts over New Jersey (or for the sake of annoying Eric, the New York ) race not happening as well.

Strange considering that Korea and India are both new venues. India didn't seem bad - certainly had a bigger crowd than Korea did last year, even though the race wasn't that great.

Edited by JHS18, 16 September 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Massa]

There have been doubts about New Jersey, but they moved Le Mans back one week simply to accommodate New Jersey's place on the F1 calendar.  I don't the FIA would do that if they didn't expect to be running that race, and there is no other race they can run on June 16 as it is one week after Montréal, so for logistical reasons, you couldn't run a race outside of North America that weekend.

And just for calling it New York, Silverstone's the Scottish Grand Prix to me now.

[JHS18]

Provisional 2013 calendar released:

http://www.telegraph...edon-final.html

[Quiet One]

JHS18, on 21 September 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Provisional 2013 calendar released:

http://www.telegraph...edon-final.html

Does that mean that we will have no European GP next year? Or the honors will be passed to another circuit?

And, most important than anything else: why should I care if any of the GPs is named  the European GP or not?

[freaky2]

Because you don't have a South American GP and you've been jealous for years? Nah, personally I think it was just an excuse to go twice to the same country. Stupid, since MotoGP do it without so much fuss XD

[Quiet One]

freaky2, on 21 September 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Because you don't have a South American GP and you've been jealous for years? Nah, personally I think it was just an excuse to go twice to the same country. Stupid, since MotoGP do it without so much fuss XD

Bah...we do have Interlagos and it still is one of the top races of all year. Beat that! (I doubt we could have a similar race in intensity as Interlagos, even in  the remote case the Argentina GP finally came back)

As for moto GP, what do they know? Those guys ride half a car FFS!

[JHS18]

Quiet One, on 21 September 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Does that mean that we will have no European GP next year? Or the honors will be passed to another circuit?

And, most important than anything else: why should I care if any of the GPs is named  the European GP or not?

Well there was that talk that if a London race ever happened, it'd be called the European GP, but I'm not sure whether it will ever happen to be honest.

[Quiet One]

JHS18, on 21 September 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Well there was that talk that if a London race ever happened, it'd be called the European GP, but I'm not sure whether it will ever happen to be honest.

For every actual new venue there's a dozen possible races for which we get those lovely virtual laps on youtube. I think Bernie loves those videos more than the actual races.

"Ohhh...now let's watch a virtual lap on the Chatanooga Street Circuit!"

[Massa]

A little thing that bugs me...all the other races are Something Grand Prix, either the nation (Monaco Grand Prix, United States Grand Prix) or the demonym (German Grand Prix, British Grand Prix).  But now the New Jersey race is called the "Grand Prix of America."  Grand Prix of XYZ is what FIA mandates U.S. series to use to avoid confusion; Champ Car's names were always officially Grand Prix of wherever for that reason.  First you guys do manufacturing jobs better than we do, and now you guys do Grands Prix of places better than we do.  Come on.

I would have preferred the United States Grand Prix and the North American Grand Prix, personally.

Also, let's cut this Port Imperial crap.  It's freaking Weehawken and the track runs prominently past a sewerage treatment facility.  I'm sure the cameras will be on the "wooder" but let's stop pretending New Jersey is somehow pleasant for outsiders.  The circuit needs a more New Jerseyan name.  Weehawkenring, craigsring, or Nuvaring would be more reflective of the location.

(Do you guys know how excited I am to see F1 cars on streets I actually know?  There's something about F1 in the Garden State that is seriously cool for me).

[JHS18]

Been officially announced today that Singapore will stay on the calendar till 2017.

[Massa]

Ecclestone's comments have made the whole New Jersey situation pretty clear.

The plan was to announce a race that wasn't fully funded in hopes that the whole "woo New York" and "woo big event" thing would attract the remainder of the funding.

The funding hasn't come yet, so now Ecclestone is down on his knees publicly begging the collective world to give money to this race and make his dream of racing past sewerage treatment/steak-and-cheese processing centers and fourth-tier strip clubs NYC come true.

I think all the people with an interest in supporting Grand Prix racing in the U.S. got behind Texas, though, and the New York money isn't keen on getting into this.  One thing Ecclestone should consider is waiting for the USGP to happen in 2012; if there's enough support and buzz and "economic impact" from F1 in the U.S., both the local government and private investors may be a little more willing to support this project.

http://www.gpupdate....-sort-contract/

Also, for those of us (me) keeping track of these things, whenever Ecclestone talks of this race in a positive light, it's the "New York race."  In a negative light?  He uses "New Jersey."

I almost always defend Ecclestone when he is acting lawfully, but I consider it a crime to demean poor little New Jersey, so Ecclestone gets the old "blah blah blah old Hobbit go retire blah blah blah" cliché crap I usually cringe at when I read other people write.

[Massa]

A night race on a street track?  Wow, what an original, novel challenge...

I have nothing against night racing, and nothing against temporary circuits, but I'd rather have both in moderation.  Having the street race in New Jersey as 2013's addition, and then the street race in Thailand as 2014's (with proposals for a street race in Argentina, and talk about a street race in London, and probably tons of others I can't remember).

The more variety you have in circuits, and the more variety you have in conditions, the more of an engineering challenge Grand Prix racing becomes.  For me, that's something that makes the racing better.  As much as I like the New Jersey race, I'm 100% fine if it does get canceled because I'm not sure it adds anything to the calendar we don't already have, or aren't already getting in the next few years.

http://www.gpupdate....ndar-from-2014/

[Massa]

Also, Ecclestone is continuing to say New Jersey is done.

Construction has not met the specified deadlines in the contract.

There's a joke about how China can build a skyscraper in six days.  The United States can't even file the proper paperwork in a month.

And the joke is 100% true.  You really can't build anything in the U.S., particularly in the northeast, and expect it to be done in any kind of reasonable time frame, or be done to the exact specification proposed.  That doesn't mean they couldn't have it all done by June 2013 because I feel as though they could, but Ecclestone gave them objectives and they didn't meet them, so fair enough, even if this just public threats to speed things up.

[JHS18]

Sadly, I see this as being a big future of F1 - I think over the next few years we'll see more and more races in the middle of big cities. It somehow suits F1's brand image, but unfortunately produces lousy racing.

New Jersey, talk of London, Thailand, in the past talk of Rome and Paris. Seems most of those won't ever happen, but I think Bernie and the whole of F1 has a fixation with street circuit racing.

Also, as was talked about in this month's F1 Racing magazine, street circuits are probably the way forward for many places wanting to host races anyway. With many economies struggling, a street circuit is a cheap(er) way to host a race than building a purpose built facility. Put it this way - if you have the roads ready already, you save a lot of time and money. Sure you have potential problems with noise, traffic disruption, having to close off roads for a week or so...but it does make sense. Plus if you've got the backdrop as somewhere really spectacular like Monaco and Singapore have, then people are more likely going to want to go there.

But I don't think another night race would be a good idea. That is Singapore's unique selling point and they deserve to keep it that way. More than one night race per season kind of makes it...I don't know, a bit less important?

Edited by JHS18, 27 September 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[Massa]

I understand why street circuits make sense, but F1 does have to be careful.  When you make F1 some uniform traveling show that does the same song and dance in every single country it goes to, that's great for the 40,000-100,000 people who attend, but pretty miserable for the 80,000,000 others watching it on TV.  You have to balance the need for new venues with the need for variety.  Spec tracks is not the way to go, and it doesn't matter which track the spec is.  I wouldn't bother watching F1 if all twenty races were held at Spa.  The point of having differences in car and driver strengths and weaknesses is to test those over the course of a lap, a race, and a season.  That requires having the venues to do that.

I know that new permanent circuits aren't going to happen, which is why I welcome the Circuit of the Americas, even if the track itself does nothing to impress me (yet...need to see real cars on the real circuit); the fact it was built impresses me a lot.

You can definitely build really great layouts for street circuits.  I think the pure speed of the New Jersey track is interesting, and I think Champ Car had a real winner in Las Vegas (and a few proposed ones elsewhere that never ran which were awesome).  I know I'm alone, but I liked Valencia a lot, too.  But after a while, it can be tiring to have too many.

Night races?  Never cared for the idea, never will.  Doesn't bother me, doesn't excite me.  As an American, I was so numb to the idea from seeing it done a million times on both ovals and on a temporary road course (Champ Car at Cleveland) that I didn't care.  At least it puts it on at a better time for the U.S. audience, and presumably the European audience, which I think is the whole point to it.

[Rainmaster]

Night races don't need to be seen or sold as some gimmick or unique selling point, imo. A night race is exactly the same to me as a day race, just like it's just another race for the drivers. It doesn't add anything or take anything away. Street circuits? Definitely going to be the trend for economic reasons, and yes you need variety, but I think there'll always be variety anyway.

[Massa]

The NASCAR calendar is out, and I actually think it's relevant to comment.

Assuming there is a Grand Prix in New Jersey on June 16, F1 screwed up.  I know they are targeting a younger, more urban demographic than NASCAR, but at the end of the day, racing is racing and there are people who watch NASCAR while having a passing interest in F1 and would wish to see a race in person.  And, there are a lot of people who will be traveling from suburban areas to go to auto races.

The problem?

NASCAR is in Dover, DE on June 2 and Long Pond, PA on June 9.  Weehawken, NJ isn't that close to Dover or Long Pond in theory, but having been to the races at Long Pond, a ton of people who live close to Weehawken go to those races.  People will travel a lot for NASCAR.  But most people can't afford to go to two races in the span of two or three weeks, and while a Grand Prix is "new" and "special," it's also more expensive and offers an experience very different from attending a NASCAR race (where Sunday is six or seven hours long and you can get more access if you pay).

So, you're eliminating something there.

Likewise, Austin, in 2012 and 2013, is on the very same day as NASCAR's season finale, and two weeks after a race in Fort Worth which is admittedly a different market than Austin despite being in Texas, but again, people who can travel to either...what will they choose?

The issue with the season finale?  A lot of the U.S. motorsports media can't attend the USGP now.  The coverage F1 could use in USA Today, on ESPN, in Sports Illustrated, on SB Nation, whatever else, is going to NASCAR that weekend because the journalists will be in Florida, not in Texas.  Many expressed a strong desire to go to the USGP and cover it.

(It's been a while since I pretended to know more about hosting Grands Prix in the U.S. than the people who actually host them know, so I figured this was due... )

[Massa]

They confirmed today that New Jersey is provisionally confirmed until December when we get final confirmation.

What I hate about this provisional stuff?  The U.S. TV deal is under negotiation and U.S. races in U.S. time zones make a difference in the negotiations.  Therefore, the negotiations aren't going to end until the winter, which makes me sad because I want to know everything right now!

[Massa]

Quote

16/06 Grand Prix of Jersey (New York)

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102925

THIS RACE ISN'T IN NEW YORK.

It might not be anywhere, of course, but it certainly isn't New York!

[Massa]

The Circuit of the Americas strikes again!  I predicted a long time ago the race would never happen, and just as it looked like I'd be wrong...

...they've gone and done what American contractors do best!  They built the garages out of spec, and they are too small for the teams to work in!  (How could you build something too small in America...the same space you need for an F1 car's garage stall, you need for a restaurant booth here...)

The teams are meeting with Charlie Whiting about it now.

Don't let me down, COTA!

(Source is Will Buxton on Twitter, retweeted by someone who follows him because I don't).