176 replies to this topic

[Massa]

Actually, now I see why Montoya wants F1 to copy NASCAR...




"MEATS: TASTE THE EXCITEMENT" might be the best thing I've ever read in my life.  Ecclestone's missing out on this lucrative opportunity for F1 turkey jerky.

[Massa]

Wild Bubba believes Elroy, TX is going to take off any day now (this Wild Bubba guy has gotten more press than anyone else in F1 all year):

http://www.statesman...ck-2276556.html

Not really surprising that there isn't much confidence in building near the track.  You just can't speculate on the Grand Prix doing anything for Elroy.

They also want more government help.  Something about McAngus Road.  What a name...

http://www.statesman...is-2286326.html

[Massa]

Why the delay on announcing the French Grand Prix?

Apparently they haven't finalized a track.

http://formula-one.s...french-gp-host/

[Massa]

That Argentina street race is believed to be replacing the Korean Grand Prix in 2013.

I love this news.  Takes a race that's on at 2 or 3 AM and gives one that would be on in the afternoon.  Perfect.

[dribbler]

Massa, on 08 April 2012 - 02:10 AM, said:

Why the delay on announcing the French Grand Prix?

Apparently they haven't finalized a track.

http://formula-one.s...french-gp-host/

Some people think Magny Cours was boring but personally I used to really enjoy it. It has seen some action over the years, notably Kim and Michael in 2002, and Coulthard's one finger salute to Michael.

[Massa]

Elroy, TX is offering their personal seating licenses and season tickets now:



No wonder they need taxpayer money; no one's paying them voluntarily.

[JHS18]

dribbler, on 10 April 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Some people think Magny Cours was boring but personally I used to really enjoy it. It has seen some action over the years, notably Kim and Michael in 2002, and Coulthard's one finger salute to Michael.

I'll echo that. I always liked the track. And if being in the middle of nowhere was counting against it, why the heck was the South Korean circuit ever built then?

[HandyNZL]

To get one over North Korea......like, duh!

[Massa]

I think Magny-Cours is one of those hindsight things.  No one was saying they liked the track until they saw Valencia etc. in the subsequent years.

What's happening in the real middle of nowhere: Elroy, TX?

Well:

$6750 maximum for a PSL and season ticket (V8 Supercars in 2013 included with the 2012 Grand Prix).  That's $366.67 per year for the seating license (guarantees the seat for fifteen years), plus $1250 per year to have that seat at every event held at COTA.  $625 per race for the first year.  Of course that's the high end.  Individual, normal ticket sales will likely be in the $300-$600 range.  NASCAR seats max out at $250 per seat, which includes meals, private restrooms, a view of the entire track, pre-race pit road/fan area access (not actual garage access; that's separate and usually you need to know someone on a team to get that, same with hot passes to be in the pits for the actual race), and a race that lasts three or four hours compared to F1's ninety minutes.  There will be no support races for the United States Grand Prix.  Seriously.  Not a single one.  No idea what general admission to sit on dirt mounds will be; the article mentions it's about $125 at Montréal, which is a massive ripoff.  You can't see anything but trees if you do GA at Montréal.  $125, might pay that to sit in the T1/T2 grandstand, but only at the very top, great view if you're up top in that grandstand, great by F1/road course standards at least.  But that'd run, what, $500, and at Austin, there won't be views like that because the track, assuming it gets built, is too big.  But none of that matters, every individual can make their own decision and if I go to New Jersey, it will cost $360 to look at buildings and catch-fencing and maybe possibly hear the cars.

So how are sales going?  11,000 were on the waiting list and are now being solicited.  90% U.S. Americans, 10% international.  39% Texan. [1, for both paragraphs]

Paul Mitchell and Tequila Patrón guy John Paul DeJoria has invested in the project. [2]  He has been largely involved in ALMS, though there will not be an ALMS race at the track (yet).  He would also like to see drag racing (his daughter does drag racing) added to COTA. [3]  This is a really positive development for the track, I think.

Construction...is happening. [4]

It's also a political issue now.  I guess F1 should abstain from coming here.  The comments on the article are interesting. [5]

Bobby Epstein wants arbitration.  Tavo Hellmund wants a public hearing.  Draw your own conclusions. [6]

And best for last...the power struggle: Hellmund/Full Throttle want to buy out Red McCombs.  Red McCombs has the option to buy them out instead. [7]

Links to all this information:

[1] http://www.statesman...as-2303252.html
[2] http://www.statesman..._formula_austin
[3] http://www.statesman...in-2300962.html
[4] http://www.statesman..._formula_austin
[5] http://www.statesman..._formula_austin
[6] http://www.statesman..._formula_austin
[7] http://www.statesman...es-2298638.html

My personal conclusions: I have no idea if this is going to happen or not.  If it does, I am still convinced it will not be anything close to successful.

[Massa]

Ecclestone is unsure if New Jersey will be in 2013 or 2014 (quit calling it New York, that really bothers me, the race is in New Jersey, it is New Jersey's race and I am sick and tired of New Jersey being treated like it's some second-rate nuclear waste dump for New York even if it is, Jersey pride always and forever).  Also mentions that the French Grand Prix is likely to be at Paul Ricard and alternate with Spa.  Argentina would have to replace an existing race (if Valencia and Barcelona alternate, that would open something up).

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/17738493

[Massa]

Someone made a model of the Argentina circuit and simulated it.  I don't know how accurate it really is.  The track gets a lot more interesting, I think, around that impossibly tight Surfers' Paradise-style diversion (less of a corner honestly, more of just insanity in an F1 car) and beyond.  Obviously I'd want to see the real thing and all that before judging.  It has moments of originality, though, if it's accurate.



There's apparently a rumor about a Red Bull-backed race in Thailand.  Obviously not for 2013.  I'll believe it when I see it.

[Jack Acid]

I was really hoping to see the US GP in Austin this year (I have 2 good friends that live there) but there is no way I'm paying $500+ for a ticket. Just no way, especially because of other travel expenses that would be involved.

Edited by Jack Acid, 17 April 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Massa]

Current prices are season tickets (F1 and V8 Supercars for now, would later include music events and MotoGP, I believe) and personal seating licenses, which reserve those seats for fifteen years.

This summer, normal tickets (a ticket just for the 2012 United States Grand Prix and nothing more; I assume that's a weekend ticket of course but I have no idea how F1 ticketing works) will be available.  As low as $125 anticipated for general admission (sitting on dirt, peeing in the woods), probably around $250-$300 to get one of the less-demanded seats.

Still very expensive, of course, compared to a whole of other sporting events one could attend, but it won't quite be $500 unless you are truly in the market for a season ticket or want one of the best views (which one would presumably want if he/she could afford it).

We were planning to go to New Jersey in 2013 (or 2014, depending on when it debuts) but decided not to when discussing future vacation plans the other day given the poor value (New Jersey estimated $360, and estimates always increase just in time for reality) of not being able to see much of anything at a street circuit.

On the bright side, with you being in California, if you don't go to Austin, it will at least be a race that isn't being televised at 5 AM.

[Jack Acid]

Massa, on 17 April 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Current prices are season tickets (F1 and V8 Supercars for now, would later include music events and MotoGP, I believe) and personal seating licenses, which reserve those seats for fifteen years.

This summer, normal tickets (a ticket just for the 2012 United States Grand Prix and nothing more; I assume that's a weekend ticket of course but I have no idea how F1 ticketing works) will be available.  As low as $125 anticipated for general admission (sitting on dirt, peeing in the woods), probably around $250-$300 to get one of the less-demanded seats.

Still very expensive, of course, compared to a whole of other sporting events one could attend, but it won't quite be $500 unless you are truly in the market for a season ticket or want one of the best views (which one would presumably want if he/she could afford it).

We were planning to go to New Jersey in 2013 (or 2014, depending on when it debuts) but decided not to when discussing future vacation plans the other day given the poor value (New Jersey estimated $360, and estimates always increase just in time for reality) of not being able to see much of anything at a street circuit.

On the bright side, with you being in California, if you don't go to Austin, it will at least be a race that isn't being televised at 5 AM.

Thanks again mate. I'd plunk $125 for a ticket, that is much more manageable as an annual event expense. I'd have a free place to stay, so it's really air fare and the admission. Glad to hear the initial numbers I heard are not the final totals, will have to look into it closer to then. I don't believe tickets are even on sale yet.

And yes, looking forward to a "normal" start time!

[Massa]

Saw some construction photos from the track in Weehawken/West New York, NJ.  Pit/paddock building isn't far behind the one in Elroy.

I wish Ecclestone would have elaborated on what is causing him concerns.  I'm assuming, 100% honestly, the thing is funded at least in part by mafia money, which I'd actually think would be reliable.

[The Shadow]

I wonder what would happen if we had an oval race in F1. Say Indy? Or maybe the old circuit in Monza?

[Massa]

It's an interesting idea, but...

F1 cars are not designed for close-range, high-speed impact (not much is; IndyCar still has a spotty record on ovals...basically the only thing you can drive on an oval is a tank of a stock car).  So you'd have a major safety issue.  They don't have so much run-off room to make it easier for the drivers to make mistakes; they have it because these cars can't go this fast that close to barriers.  Look at the races at Indy on the road course; drivers had crashes in the oval section and were injured.  Not knocking F1's safety, but the tracks play as much of a role as the cars do.

Beyond that, they'd need to completely redesign the cars for performance.  Very expensive.

And then you'd run into one final factor: it would be terribly boring.  Oval racing is exciting when 1) the cars look like they are on the absolute edge and/or 2) the drivers are racing each other.  F1 cars handle too well to look like they are on the absolute edge and the racing wouldn't be particularly close (you couldn't really do DRS on a speedway, either, it would just be insane).

That doesn't mean there are great speedways out there; you guys know I enjoy oval racing quite a bit, and wish tracks like Rockingham (UK) and Lausitz (Germany) could be updated with SAFER barriers and used for something, same with Phakisa in South Africa or Calder Park in Australia or the now defunct Rio oval in Brazil, all five of which were horribly unsafe to begin with.  But it's not F1's place.

What you could theoretically do, that they will never do, is take the Burke Lakefront Airport where they used to race Champ Cars in Cleveland...you can make a 1.54 mile oval circuit on that track (four corners, four straights...basically a rectangle like Indy).  You can only do that because the airport itself is very, very, very wide, the braking for the corners would be immense, and, being an airport, the run-off room is sufficient.  They'll obviously never, ever, ever do that but it would be about the only thing they could do.

[The Shadow]

Massa, on 19 April 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's an interesting idea, but...

What you could theoretically do, that they will never do, is take the Burke Lakefront Airport where they used to race Champ Cars in Cleveland...you can make a 1.54 mile oval circuit on that track (four corners, four straights...basically a rectangle like Indy).  You can only do that because the airport itself is very, very, very wide, the braking for the corners would be immense, and, being an airport, the run-off room is sufficient.  They'll obviously never, ever, ever do that but it would be about the only thing they could do.

That would be a good solution. At least it would appeal to those who like oval racing. Interesting thought experiment

[Massa]

Interestingly enough, though a bit off-topic, FISA were asked in the early 90s about sanctioning an international, all-oval formula car series including the Indianapolis 500 (the proposal came from Tony George).  It was to follow the "Disney World" concept, where you have Walt Disney World (the Indy 500), Euro Disney, Tokyo Disney, etc.  Essentially a series of a lot of "Indy 500s" being run all over the world.  Sort of an all-oval F1 was being planned.  FISA and Ecclestone didn't really understand the proposal and decided against doing it; George then went into an entirely different direction with a low-cost, all-American, all-oval series catering to young American oval racers...it did one of those four things...until 2005.

Anyway, it's appearing as though Red McCombs is leaning toward not selling his shares to Tavo Hellmund.  This means he would buy out all of Tavo Hellmund's shares, I believe.  Hellmund is Bernie Ecclestone's buddy and the only reason this really happened (Hellmund was to be in charge of the New Jersey race for Ecclestone, but did this instead).  It will be interesting to see how quickly 1) Ecclestone stops caring about Austin, which isn't his little project like the New Jersey race and only got the green-light for Tavo and 2) Ecclestone forces New Jersey to take on Hellmund as a promoter.

You know, if two is actually about to come true, I think I now know why Ecclestone says the Jersey race may be postponed until 2014.  He knows that Hellmund is headed over there and if he does a job like he's done with Austin...

That aside, Leo Hindery, Jr. (YES Network, Jersey guy) is giving the generic "we're fine blah blah blah" stuff.  Which means they're behind schedule and it's never going to happen and all that.

Maybe.

[Massa]

Ecclestone: Paul Ricard is on for 2013, Spa will alternate with it.  Ecclestone is truly wonderful at what he does, and I say that sincerely.  Anyone who can create a situation such that tracks sign on to be part of his calendar even when they know they are going to lose money (every race is losing money, every single one, no matter what) is just brilliantly clever.  I'm assuming the losses are even worse for the tracks if they don't run the races, and Ecclestone knows that.  He's intelligent.  I hope he retires soon and his heir isn't as intelligent.

Ecclestone also says they will return to Bahrain next year.

http://www.gpupdate....turn-to-france/
http://www.gpupdate....ack-in-bahrain/

With the confirmation that Spa is not on the calendar for 2013, now just Suzuka and Marina Bay remain to sign to a new contract.  All other 2012 races are contracted for 2013 (which doesn't mean they will be running them; Valencia and Yeongam being obvious doubts, and the contracted Weehawken race has had its stuff).

[Massa]

Catalunya and Valencia will alternate starting next year.  Race is in Barcelona for 2013, Valencia for 2014.  Third alternating race now, with Spa/Paul Ricard official and Hockenheim/Nüburgring as has been for years.  This opens the door for New Jersey to join, assuming it's ready.  The 2014 Russian Grand Prix will probably find its place with a Korean cancelation.  Any other speculative races (Argentina, South Africa, second in India, etc). would come at the expense of something else (I know they threaten Australia every year, but they never act on it).

[Massa]

Construction in New Jersey is ahead of construction in Austin.

Which makes me wonder about why Ecclestone said Jersey may have to wait until 2014.

I have two theories:

1) Argentina offered Ecclestone a better deal.  After all, Jersey doesn't get the government funding to make too outlandish of an offer, whereas the Argentine government probably can.  Plus, if the NJ crew were intelligent, they would have known they can get it at a discount from Ecclestone because he is just so dead set on having a race in NYC Metro.  Ecclestone may not have enough space on the calendar to have both Argentina and New Jersey...

2) With the lawsuits etc. in Elroy, Tavo Hellmund might have something to do with this.  Consider that Ecclestone wanted Hellmund in charge of ruining the Jersey race, but Hellmund instead convinced Ecclestone to back his Texan dream.  Now, Hellmund may be ousted from the project entirely, as the management struggles continue and all that.  Is Ecclestone trying to stir up false rumors around New Jersey as a way to get his friend Hellmund in on that project, seemingly more stable than Elroy?  "I'll stop talking if you take on Tavo" or something like that, or trying to generate a lack of confidence around partners for the project such that the race needs to be taken over by Ecclestone/Hellmund.

Those are both completely speculative theories.  Just something I thought about today.

[Massa]

Austin round-up:

Overview-ish thing: Race day general admission is $287.  What a waste of money.  Sit on a hill for 90 minutes at $287.  Also, there will only be on-site parking for 17,000.  17,000!  Are you kidding me?  What a joke, what an absolute joke this event is.  This event must be planned by people who aren't from the United States.  There isn't public transporation in the U.S.  It doesn't exist.  It's awful where it does.  No one is taking a bus to get to this race, sorry.  People who have the money to buy these seats aren't taking buses.  That's not how it works in the U.S.  I'm not saying that's right, but it's just how it is.  17,000 parking spaces.  You're out of your mind.  An auto race with 17,000 parking spaces.  They aren't even trying.  Let's sell F1 in America by making you sit on a bus for a few hours to go there and sit on a mound.
The track is hot a political topic
Latest on the lawsuit
Paul Mitchell wants to make it a drag racing facility and it may as well be that and only that.

[JHS18]

Massa, on 15 May 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Overview-ish thing: Race day general admission is $287.  What a waste of money.  Sit on a hill for 90 minutes at $287.  Also, there will only be on-site parking for 17,000.  17,000!  Are you kidding me?  What a joke, what an absolute joke this event is.  This event must be planned by people who aren't from the United States.  There isn't public transporation in the U.S.  It doesn't exist.  It's awful where it does.  No one is taking a bus to get to this race, sorry.  People who have the money to buy these seats aren't taking buses.  That's not how it works in the U.S.  I'm not saying that's right, but it's just how it is.  17,000 parking spaces.  You're out of your mind.  An auto race with 17,000 parking spaces.  They aren't even trying.  Let's sell F1 in America by making you sit on a bus for a few hours to go there and sit on a mound.

Said all along Formula One is overpriced...

They really wouldn't be helping Formula One's historically dodgy relationship in the States with that. Who in their right mind is going to pay that sort of money for an obscure sporting event that hardly ever makes the main news in the country?

Bodes well...

[Massa]

Well, from the other perspective:

I'm not sure attendance is what they're looking for.  Indianapolis was the best-attended Grand Prix on the calendar from 2000 to 2004.  To be fair, it also had over twice the seating capacity of any other track, but the point is, they were able to get 130,000 people there on race day.  The event didn't do anything to improve American fan interest in F1.  So why would they even try to get people to go?  It doesn't matter if people go.  The Austin government is subsidizing it.  The money is in TV contracts (a primetime slot over in Europe, the feeling that it's a "big event" because it's in "America" and at this new massive circuit), not ticket revenues.  It isn't about establishing F1 in the United States, it never was, it doesn't have to be.

[Massa]

They're paving parts of the track in Elroy.

https://twitter.com/...6/photo/1/large

I still think this event will be a complete failure.  I hate to see them get so far if it's not going to work...and I don't know how they make it work...but hey, their money and their problem, not mine.

[Massa]

Austin update: It's being built and it's happening.

I was wrong.  Very, very wrong.

[HandyNZL]

Never admit that....

[JHS18]

Ah, building the track's the easy bit. Getting a crowd and pleasing Bernie is the more challenging area.

Look at Korea. Was just about built on time, but looks like a track that is very likely to suddenly disappear off the calendar for 2013.

[HandyNZL]

And Korea is kind of OK.  At least it is in simulation land.