63 replies to this topic

[JHS18]

So it seems there's an increasing number of fans, and even drivers and team bosses that are now deciding to criticise Pirelli and their tyres.

People claim that the racing is fake, and that it is simply a lottery from one weekend to another. Was Pastor Maldonado's win genuine or just luck through getting the tyres to work at a given moment?

Is it frustrating as Schumacher says that drivers can no longer push and rather have to conserve tyres for much of the race?

On the other hand, when has the racing been more exciting? We've had five winners in five different cars from the first five races of the season and plenty of overtaking. It is funny to note that the last major complaint many fans had before Pirelli entered was the lack of on track overtaking.

So, how do you view it? Do you think it is exciting? Or is it "fake" racing?

This is Mateschitz has to say on it:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99640

[Massa]

I've been watching it more this year than 2009-2011.  Maybe even 2008.  I don't think it's any more or less exciting.  I just feel like watching the races.  I'll say this:

1) F1 probably felt more exciting when I started watching in 2006-2007 because new things are exciting and I was more able to convince myself that the driver leading after corner one wasn't going to win because blah blah blah.  Now I'm unable to do that, but there's more happening on track, so it balances out to the same level of enjoyment.

2) The older I've gotten, the more I've been able to appreciate talented race driving, even from guys I don't like (i.e. Vettel.  He's tremendously good at driving.  I don't ever want to see him win another race, but he can drive).

3) I really, really, really love fuel strategy.  However, fuel strategy only made F1 more interesting for getting some weird starting grids, but never changed the overall winner that I can recall.  I think in road racing, fuel strategy doesn't make a huge difference because you can conserve fuel with more ease, whereas in oval racing, you do it at a huge sacrifice and that's why it gets really exciting there (a lot of Indy 500s, for example, come down to fuel strategy and that actually translates to a close race on the track where one guy is turning qualifying laps at the end and cutting into the big lead of the guy conserving at slow speeds and then they start catching up and you're counting down the laps and can he catch him...will the other guy run out anyway...etc, etc, etc).  So I guess I sort of miss refueling but not too much.

Conclusion: I have no idea if it's exciting or not but I've been watching when I can and will continue to do so.  Good enough for me.  I haven't left any race saying "wow, that was a classic!"  I haven't left any race saying "wow, that was a waste of my morning," either.  I'm indifferent to his style of racing over the old style, I guess, but I'm choosing it more now simply because I prefer it to the way other racing I watch has been this season (not as interesting to me).

[Massa]

Also: it isn't a lottery.  Daytona or Talladega is a lottery.  The lead changes hands twice a lap and it's mind-numbingly boring.  F1 races themselves aren't lotteries.  You don't know who is going to win on Friday, but it doesn't take too long in a race itself to know.  So I wouldn't find lottery to be the appropriate term at all.  If a guy could go from P24 to P1 in three corners, yes, that would be a lottery, and be strange, and probably not very exciting.

[Rainmaster]

Looks are deceiving. It looks like a lottery. But that's because it's harder to understand and use the tyres. That means it actually takes more hard work and intelligence to do it, and therefore it's very difficult to do it at every track. Williams did not win by any definition of the word "chance" or "luck". They activated their tyres better (by working better); others made stupid mistakes or were too conservative; and Maldonado drove masterfully. That's the opposite of a lottery. So I can't agree with Mateschitz.

Fake racing is also something hard to define. I remember when cars 2 seconds a lap quicker would catch the car in front and be unable to pass. Often not because of the skill of the driver in front, but because of aerodynamics. If that is real racing I am not sure I like it any better than this. I think it's just as exciting, if not more. And no less genuine.

Drivers not enjoying it as much? Not all of them agree, and who cares if they did. F1 is not completely about the purity of driving, if a driver wants that they can stay in karting. It would be very difficult to make it completely about pure driving, when the cars are so advanced. They are there to entertain us, those who ultimately support their wages. Our enjoyment matters more than theirs.

I also don't fully accept it as true, or find it hard to quantify, the level of criticism Pirelli are coming under from fans. Or how meaningful those criticisms actually are. I never heard anything about it until Schumacher piped up, so I'm not sure how serious it is. Personally, I think Pirelli are doing a much better service for the fans than Bridgestone, whether the fans realise it or not But it comes down to an idealogical argument about technology and driving skill in F1. Too long for this post.

[Quiet One]

They are adapting so it seems like a lottery. It is not. It just mean new strategies, new skils, and new challenges. I think it is good even if we would like a little less chaos, but again I think this is just temporary, and I hope it doesn't get too predictable after this.

The best ones at this new game will survive. This will be like a Monaco, a Spa or a Montreal of the Championships. Many old guys will suffer the change, others will thrive and new people will come.

If there has to be any change, I'd rather see it looking like a lottery than a procession.

[BradSpeedMan]

Massa, on 16 May 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

I've been watching it more this year than 2009-2011. Maybe even 2008.  I don't think it's any more or less exciting.  I just feel like watching the races.  I'll say this:

good on you!

[Caesar]

2010. was great season without pirelli's and DRS.
maybe something in between would be better, maybe only DRS, cause i don't see the point investing millions $ in research and how to know the tyres, when tyres behave so different from track to track.

[Massa]

Peter Wright said:

Purity is most admirable, but action and the unexpected are more entertaining.

Paraphrase (as close as I could off the top of my head) of a quote in Road & Track vol. 83 no. 7.

I think that's fair.  And I like being entertained.

[Rainmaster]

Just what I was trying to get at.

[Delta]

Is it a lottery? in my opinion no. If Lewis hadn't been penalised in Spain he would have won. If it weren't for the rain at Sepang, McLaren would probably have walked away with an easy 1-2. They have the fastest car and just haven't capitalised on it for various reasons.

However are performances varying from weekend to weekend? yes. But the tyres being given to all the teams are the same, and if the teams or their drivers can't make them work that's their problem. I like it when you can turn on your TV and not have a clue what the heck is going to happen, that's how sport should be in my opinion. I said a few weeks ago that I thought Williams would struggle to ever win a race again but here we are. I hope it continues. Last year it was a case of Vettel on pole, Vettel wins and if something happens to him McLaren may pick up the spoils. Can anyone say they honestly miss that if they aren't a Vettel / RBR fan? It became predictable too fast last year, it was just as bad as the Schumacher total domination years for me (even with the extra on track passing). I truly am glad that seems to have passed.

Edited by Delta, 17 May 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

No, definitely not a lottery - I went to my local newsagents and asked if I could buy a £1 ticket for F1 and he told me to "sod off"

Seriously can't believe that people are complaining about it. After years of boring, predictable racing with little or no overtaking, this season has come alive.

Bring it on.

[DPR]

If the tyres continue to be so delicate, then I think it may be time to ditch DRS.
The difference in quali (with unlimited DRS) and race for certain teams, shows just how false the DRS performance is (even if it is just for one straight in the race).
DRS was brought in to assist with the predictable race pace, but now the tyres have negated the need for any other tricks or gimmicks.

[The Shadow]

DPR, on 17 May 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

If the tyres continue to be so delicate, then I think it may be time to ditch DRS.
The difference in quali (with unlimited DRS) and race for certain teams, shows just how false the DRS performance is (even if it is just for one straight in the race).
DRS was brought in to assist with the predictable race pace, but now the tyres have negated the need for any other tricks or gimmicks.

I think there's still a role for DRS in the race. Just so cars can bunch up at the end of the straight and if not pass, then line up for a subtler move in the 1st sector. If the so called DRS quali pace is fake, then just disallow DRS for qualifying but allow it for the race. Simples.

My 2 cents.

By the way, I do love how predictably unpredictable this has become. I imagine if the processionary nature of racing from days of old is reborn, perhaps several years from now, we shall look fondly back to this season, for the rollercoaster of emotion that it is.

My prediction for the title, if it stands that winning the race is a so-called lottery, is the one who can finish consistently on the podium or thereabouts. If Alonso continues his performance as in these past few races, what a feather in his cap! The ability to win the title with the crappiest car Ferrari has made in 10 years, and his teammate finishing in the median of 12th place. Or what if Hamilton finished with the consistency he showed in the first 3 races, and with his current place mentally and emotionally, with Jenson being utterly destroyed by his pace in qualifying and the race, and tyre mastery as well.

If its going to be that kind of season, where new drivers and midfield teams reach heights on the podium never before imagined, and the established players being wily, cunning and opportunistic - then I say bring it on! with that much intrigue, how can one fail to be entertained? Unless your favourite driver has a bad day, perhaps?

There has always been an element of vehicle management in any forms of racing. Even F1 in the bridgestone days had it. You see that a lot during endurance racing events, and if one is so inclined towards the guile and strategy involved, I am sure one could appreciate the level of skill on display from the driver(s) and the teams.

Like I said, worth 2 cents (on a good day)

[dribbler]

Ahh, silly humans, always start moaning when there's nothing to moan about....

We complained for years that the racing was dull and needed to improve. We changed it. Now, it's not dull. But now we can't rest easy because us humans convince ourselves that anything other than total efficiency is somehow dumbing things down, depriving us of something better. We also get fidgety when there isn't order or form.

Let this be a lesson for all kinds of things in the world; sometimes less is more.

Every team has equal opportunity to make the most of the current regulations. That's all you need. If some get it wrong whilst others get it right, for me it makes it fascinating.

Race on.

[dribbler]

The Shadow, on 17 May 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

I think there's still a role for DRS in the race. Just so cars can bunch up at the end of the straight and if not pass, then line up for a subtler move in the 1st sector. If the so called DRS quali pace is fake, then just disallow DRS for qualifying but allow it for the race. Simples.

My 2 cents.

By the way, I do love how predictably unpredictable this has become. I imagine if the processionary nature of racing from days of old is reborn, perhaps several years from now, we shall look fondly back to this season, for the rollercoaster of emotion that it is.

My prediction for the title, if it stands that winning the race is a so-called lottery, is the one who can finish consistently on the podium or thereabouts. If Alonso continues his performance as in these past few races, what a feather in his cap! The ability to win the title with the crappiest car Ferrari has made in 10 years, and his teammate finishing in the median of 12th place. Or what if Hamilton finished with the consistency he showed in the first 3 races, and with his current place mentally and emotionally, with Jenson being utterly destroyed by his pace in qualifying and the race, and tyre mastery as well.

If its going to be that kind of season, where new drivers and midfield teams reach heights on the podium never before imagined, and the established players being wily, cunning and opportunistic - then I say bring it on! with that much intrigue, how can one fail to be entertained? Unless your favourite driver has a bad day, perhaps?

There has always been an element of vehicle management in any forms of racing. Even F1 in the bridgestone days had it. You see that a lot during endurance racing events, and if one is so inclined towards the guile and strategy involved, I am sure one could appreciate the level of skill on display from the driver(s) and the teams.

Like I said, worth 2 cents (on a good day)

The bold is significant. I agree with it and it leads me to believe that we are nearer to cars being equal, combined the best drivers being able to truly show their superiority, possibly more than at any other time since the 1960's. If that doesn't get your jiuces going - go watch badminton.

[The Shadow]

dribbler, on 17 May 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

The bold is significant. I agree with it and it leads me to believe that we are nearer to cars being equal, combined the best drivers being able to truly show their superiority, possibly more than at any other time since the 1960's. If that doesn't get your jiuces going - go watch badminton.

Hey! I watch and play badminton as well.

[yurp]

dribbler, on 17 May 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

The bold is significant. I agree with it and it leads me to believe that we are nearer to cars being equal, combined the best drivers being able to truly show their superiority, possibly more than at any other time since the 1960's. If that doesn't get your jiuces going - go watch badminton.

I often have no choice but to watch badminton - if there's a tournament on the Chinese sports channel will show it instead of F1 every ****ing time!

As for the thread topic - exciting - there's no lottery here, just teams getting used to the new tyres more and less successfully. It's been the best start to a season we've had for a very long time and I say that in all seriousness.

As I said in the other thread though - perhaps it's time to ditch DRS - I never really liked it. Tyre deg being what it is brings strategy to the fore and I like that. Difference in tyre performance through the race makes for plenty of opportunities to pass without DRS. That is unless you're Schumi, in which case it gives you plenty of opportunity to run into the back of other cars.

[Quiet One]

Petrov FTW!

Yeahhhhhhh!

[JHS18]

I guess in a way, it depends what kind of fan you are.

For some people, Formula One is about the innovation and technology of the cars. Some people would probably be happy to see a cleverly designed car win by half a minute or more and find it interesting. Other people don't really care about that kind of thing and just want to be entertained with an exciting race with lots of overtaking.

In a way, it is easy to say why it could be argued as being artificial with DRS and Pirelli tyres, but you've got to give credit to people in F1 for listening to fans and bringing in new things that make the racing more entertaining. I know I've been critical of F1 before for not listening to fans, but it is great to see that in this area they do listen.

F1 is now going back to being one of the most exciting and unpredictable forms of motorsport, if not sports in general. That's the way it should be. Personally, I know a few people from school and university who have suddenly become more interested in F1 for the way it is at the moment, and if that is a trend that is being repeated around the world then it would be very hard to argue that it was doing damage to the sport's image.

[Massa]

Any set of regulations, any series, at any track...you watch every race in the season and you're going to have some you liked, some you didn't, and a lot that were just in the middle.

The races are enjoyable like this.

There are plenty of other sets of rules where the races would still be enjoyable, too.  But that doesn't make this any less enjoyable.

However, from my perspective, I have found it a lot more fun to anticipate races than to actually watch them this year.  That's not a bad thing or a complaint or anything like that, just an observation.  I'm enjoying the races, but I'm not sure "exciting" is quite the word I'd use.  At the end of the day, you still know who won really early on in most races...it's been more fun for me going into the weekend clueless as to how it's going to unfold.  That's where I don't understand the term "lottery" because, as I said before, not everyone has a chance to win the race during the actual race, unlike other types of lottery racing which I personally find terrible to watch.

SparkNotes: It isn't actually a lottery and that's a good thing, but I also think people are over-exaggerating the excitement of the individual races, but I also think it's been the most enjoyable racing series this year, at least for me, and I really don't care what they do with the rules but these ones are fine with me.

[Rainmaster]

So it seems that nobody here considers it a lottery or has any criticism for the Pirelli tyres. So where are all these "fans" who are criticising Pirelli? If 9 out of 10 hardcore fans, as I would consider people in this forum, see the benefits, then who are all these people who don't? Does anybody actually believe that "casual fans" who follow F1 are really thinking about the races being a lottery? I can't imagine any of those fans which I know even thinking about the impact the tyres have had; they just don't follow it that closely or think about it after the race. Some of them wouldn't even know what tyre supplier F1 has. My point is, criticisms always tend to get more attention in the media, but doesn't necessarily make them a majority. I really don't think the Pirelli criticism is anything like is being made out. I really hope Pirelli know that. I really hope Schumi shuts up.

[JHS18]

Sorry for linking to another forum, but:

MOD EDIT: Sorry bro, hate to be heavy-handed.

Some interesting views for both arguments I think.

Edited by Massa, 17 May 2012 - 07:36 PM.
We can't link to other forums

[Massa]

Hey Jimmy, Bruce didn't like linking to other forums, so I'm going to uphold that unless the other mods say not to.  Sorry.  I hate editing other people's posts.  It makes me feel awful and mean.

[Rainmaster]

Wait... there are other forums?

[JHS18]

Massa, on 17 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Hey Jimmy, Bruce didn't like linking to other forums, so I'm going to uphold that unless the other mods say not to.  Sorry.  I hate editing other people's posts.  It makes me feel awful and mean.

No worries. That's why I didn't initially link to another forum in the original post. Was just reading people's mixed feelings over there and wondered whether it'd be the same here. It appears most people here are in favour of the job Pirelli is doing.

[Massa]

Rainmaster, on 17 May 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Wait... there are other forums?

Yes, there are, but lets just say my IP address is not exactly welcome at most of them.

[Rainmaster]

Yet you're a mod on this one, I'm not sure if that means something has gone incredibly wrong here or incredibly right.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 17 May 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Yet you're a mod on this one, I'm not sure if that means something has gone incredibly wrong here or incredibly right.

I'd give you a hint, but then my IP would not be welcome in here...

[JHS18]

Rainmaster, on 17 May 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Yet you're a mod on this one, I'm not sure if that means something has gone incredibly wrong here or incredibly right.

It's sort of like crashgate in a way isn't it? The unlikely victor through suspicious means...

I'm not sure where I'm going with that so I'll leave it there before my IP isn't welcome here either. Poor thing.

[LabradoRacer]

I believe it's a lottery. An exciting one, yes, but still a lottery. You could be the best driver, be a master at setting up the car to extract the maximum out of the tyres, capable of making the tyres last all day, but if the track temperatures are a little out of whack on race day, your efforts go out of the (operating) window. It doesn't make sense to me to have cars have the same set-up on qualifying & race day.

I believe Jenson Button's recent bemusings (is that a word?) does bring out the lottery-ness of this season.