227 replies to this topic

[Gilles V.]

We knew he was as fast as FA, but he was sometimes too anxious at the start or to anxious to overtake and made mistakes. This year, his speed is still there but he is now able to save his tyres and did not make any major (unless I'm forgetting one) mistakes in his overtaking manoeuvres or at the start. He only won one race, but is still in the fight for the top spot (which shows consistency). He severely beats Button in the same car, a little bit like FA does over Massa.

I' not quite ready yet to say he has joined the master at the top of the heap, but if he continues like this all year long and wins the WDC in such a fierce fight for the title, I will be forced to admit that he is as good as the master.

What do you think?

[Rainmaster]

No, I don't believe so. I think it's still too early to say that after such a bad season last year and there is no shame in that. Alonso is at a much later stage of his career and life, he had his problems, and now he's the fully developed driver. He's still the best matching of talent & application (hard work, preparation, etc) on the grid.

I doubt Lewis is as good yet, even if he wins this year, and even if he can beat Alonso on his day, etc. Alonso is still more consistent for me, and sees/understands the race more clearly, which allows him to take a position of leadership and make his own calls from the c#ckpit during the race. This is something which Hamilton didn't seem particularly good at until recently (and something which Button seemed much more confident at, too), but Canada is a good example of how he's improved in this area, it would seem.

Nevertheless, Hamilton definitely seems better this year and if he carries on this path of progress, he could be as good as Alonso. He has the talent to produce great races in the same way; he is not limited by his talent, just his application. Alonso said the same thing in a different way "if I can tip one driver, I would pick him because he's the only one who can make a difference even with a car that is not a winner" (http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/18221419). Vettel is the other candidate for Alonso's throne, but needs more time to show he can produce those great races.

As for beating Button: this year so far is not Button's true potential. Just like last year was not Hamilton's. I'd like to see them both back to top form again, and then you would really have a fight.

[JHS18]

To be honest, if Hamilton HADN'T won that race on much fresher tyres, I think questions would have to be asked as to why not.

No, I kid, it was a good drive.

But I think it is too early to say. I still consider him error-prone. He has made numerous errors every season since he won the title in 2008. If he doesn't this year and wins the title, fair enough, he has improved.

I think Alonso's the only one of the top guys that doesn't make errors very often, particularly not in race conditions. Raikkonen is another one like that.

[BradSpeedMan]

Gilles V., on 11 June 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

We knew he was as fast as FA, ....

excuse me, as fast???.. He's way faster than Alonso!!! Always will, always be. Alonso is a good calculated driver, but the best... I don't think so.

[Massa]

Hamilton is faster than Alonso if you think about fast in terms of pace.

Alonso's been better at producing results than Hamilton.

They're both pretty special, so is Vettel.  At the end of the day, they're going to be evaluated by what they accomplish, whether or not they deserved to accomplish more or less or whatever.  Right now, Alonso and Vettel have two, Hamilton has one.  The best drivers end up in the best teams and get the best results.  All athletes in team sports benefit from the team and the system and the coaching and the circumstances of their competitors, so I'm willing to say championships won (or % of championships won, if you prefer) is actually a very accurate (not perfect) way of figuring out who is the best.

If you want to go by current form, of the three, the one who will impress me most is the one who wins a second race.  They all have one and they're all about equal in points.  Hamilton's lost from pole, Vettel's lost from pole, Alonso can't put it on pole.  Someone's got to just do a normal race weekend (sadly, that will be so boring ) and close the deal here.

If you want a useless opinion, Alonso impresses me more because his car looks like it's on ice more.  It's a useless opinion because I like anyone who looks like they're driving a sprint car, and if Red Bull/McLaren were as bad at designing cars as Ferrari, I'm sure Vettel and Hamilton could do the same things with the rear-end stepping out.  So Alonso's not any better necessarily for it, he's just amusing to watch because his car is ****.  I like Massa even more.  His driving is much worse than Alonso's and much more ragged, which is why I like it.  I hate the clean, polished (winning, successful, intelligent ) stuff.  I like to see guys giving the car hell.  Even if that's bad for Massa's results.  If he is going to finish outside the realm of relevance, I'd rather he do so sideways smoking the tires than in a straight line.

[AleHop]

You're as good as your last race. With Hamilton this season he's been doing well everywhere so he closer to the very top than ever. The best I don't know, as good as the best yes he is.

[BradSpeedMan]

AleHop, on 11 June 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

You're as good as your last race. With Hamilton this season he's been doing well everywhere so he closer to the very top than ever. The best I don't know, as good as the best yes he is.

some profound thinking here Alehop...

[Quiet One]

+1 to George. (I wrote almost exactly what your wrote but deleted it. I knew you would put it in fewer words)

Thank you. I despise you less now. Feel proud!

[Gilles V.]

Massa, on 11 June 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Hamilton is faster than Alonso if you think about fast in terms of pace.

I have to disagree. This year may be, but LH has had the better car; but in the same car, I think thing would be pretty much equal. Like it was the case when they were in the same theam.

[BradSpeedMan]

Gilles V., on 11 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Like it was the case when they were in the same theam.

and Hamilton was generally faster than Alonso, he displayed more raw speed.

Why is it except for Andres and Alehop I seem to talking to brickwall when it comes to Alonso fans...

[Caesar]

if you look only relevant season (2007) in which they both had the same car , and their qualy result you will notice that they were at same level through the season, so i will say that Lewis is as fast as Alonso.
and at the end of that season they had same result. but hamilton through his F1 career always drove great cars ( except 2009), Mclaren was always candidate for title, but lewis had his ups and downs , and wasn't mentaly strong.
the fact that Mclaren was great car helped him to earn his reputation of best racing driver on the grid.
alonso on the other hand was very strong mentaly, but his cars were not so good but he was always able to pull 100% out of the car.his streght is ability to adapt to every car, tyre and weather condition and he is very agressive driver.
i will quote renault engineer :' alonso's driving is best to describe as controlled explosion.
i will quote jacques villenueve, asked how strong today F1 grid is:' how many alonso's are they on the grid? only one! so , it isn't so strong'
i will quote alain prost : ' i like alonso! no mather what he is always there!.
i will quote lewis hamilton: 'alonso is best driver out there'

Edited by Caesar, 12 June 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[Massa]

Gilles V., on 11 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

I have to disagree. This year may be, but LH has had the better car; but in the same car, I think thing would be pretty much equal. Like it was the case when they were in the same theam.

Hmm...maybe it would be more precise to say that Hamilton's speed is more pronounced and Alonso's is more understated?  Or, as Brad said, raw speed?  I guess I mean that Hamilton and Alonso can go just as fast over a lap or over a race, but they do it a little differently.

Now if I owned a team, and could one of the two, I'd still pick Alonso.  I can tell you what you're going to get from Alonso next weekend.  I can't tell you what you're going to get from Hamilton.

[LabradoRacer]

Hamilton's been faster than Alonso, but now he's added the latter's scavenging-damage-limitation skills to his armory. LH > FA.

Of course, it's my subjective opinion.

[BradSpeedMan]

LabradoRacer, on 12 June 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Hamilton's been faster than Alonso, but now he's added the latter's scavenging-damage-limitation skills to his armory. LH > FA.

Of course, it's my subjective opinion.

It's actually quite objective, and it seems we need alot of that over here...

[AleHop]

I think we're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about this season so far and what I saw is that Hamilton has been always there, doing a great job. Alonso is there too in a less competitive car so nobody knows for sure who's better of the two. Hamilton is driving more consistently than ever so he is closer to the top than ever and he's leading the championship.

I don't care about who's faster because nobody knows that. F1 is not about who's faster, it's about purple lap sectors when it matters, tire management, consistency lap after lap, etc... In the past it was different because they could use a very specific car/set-up/tires on Saturday and you could compare raw speed.

[Gilles V.]

What Alonso did this year during the first 4 races, driving a really bad car, is just phenomenal. The speed he managed to have in quali was miraculous - no one at Ferrari thouht it was possible. Other drivers know this and that is why, in part, Hamilton considers him the best driver out there (when a guy like Hamilton says that a certain driver is the best, I belive it is not because tjhis driver has the best general habilities or because he is good working with the engineers adjusting the car, no,  it is becauce he is the fastest) unless Hamilton manages to win the WDC in such a close competition (he will have to beat Alonso and Vettel whose car are getting better and better); he would then IMO have to be considered as the top driver.

[Insider]

Hamilton struggled last year and was generally not as quick as his teammate who was flying for most of the season and the only credible challenger to Vettel. This year he is wringing the neck off the MP4-25 in quail and giving himself a chance in most races. I still feel Nando has the edge but Lewis has matured and will succeed him quickly as the man to beat. I have no doubt about that.

[Argento Reloaded]

Insider, on 12 June 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Hamilton struggled last year and was generally not as quick as his teammate who was flying for most of the season and the only credible challenger to Vettel. This year he is wringing the neck off the MP4-25 in quail and giving himself a chance in most races. I still feel Nando has the edge but Lewis has matured and will succeed him quickly as the man to beat. I have no doubt about that.

Agree. only me can put it in a better way!!!

[HandyNZL]

All you bloody Lewisterics

[Quiet One]

As a Nando fan, there's nothing I could add to this debate with much credibility. However, there's more than enough evidence and more creditable opinions around to prove that Hamilton is good, and also that he is not even close to Alonso yet.

[dribbler]

Quiet One, on 12 June 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

As a Nando fan, there's nothing I could add to this debate with much credibility. However, there's more than enough evidence and more creditable opinions around to prove that Hamilton is good, and also that he is not even close to Alonso yet.

Sorry, are you saying that because you are a Fernando fan you have no credibility?

[BradSpeedMan]

The issue that was brought up was if Hamilton is AS GOOD as Alonso, which includes many things. In general I don't think he is...yet. But in terms of ultimate speed, I think Hamilton's faster.

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 13 June 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[yurp]

dribbler, on 13 June 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

Sorry, are you saying that because you are a Fernando fan you have no credibility?

I believe that's precisely what he said yes.

[Quiet One]

If I said yes, would you believe me?

BTYW, I agree with Brad's last post.

[The Shadow]

Insider, on 12 June 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

This year he is wringing the neck off the MP4-25 in quail and giving himself a chance in most races.

No wonder he was having those pit stop problems. He was using a 2 year old car.

Edited by The Shadow, 13 June 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Argento Reloaded]

AleHop, on 11 June 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

You're as good as your last race. With Hamilton this season he's been doing well everywhere so he closer to the very top than ever. The best I don't know, as good as the best yes he is.

Don´t agree. The main difference between nando and lewis is -or was- last year: nando seems to be utterly consistent driving at the edge with only a few mistakes; Lewis is doing the same this year but last year was a bad one for him. Maybe he has grown up and and from now on he will be always in the top 3  as nando did in the last years.

[AleHop]

Argento Reloaded, on 13 June 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Don´t agree. The main difference between nando and lewis is -or was- last year: nando seems to be utterly consistent driving at the edge with only a few mistakes; Lewis is doing the same this year but last year was a bad one for him. Maybe he has grown up and and from now on he will be always in the top 3  as nando did in the last years.

I only consider Hamilton's 2012 season where I see him driving maturely. Any other season Aloso's been the better of the two so there's no point talking about previous seasons.

After 7 races, this season so far I think it's fair to say he's as good as Alonso. I think he really is and I give him credit for his new approach to racing because I think it's a permanent one. To say his career will be better or as good as Alonso's we'll have to wait.

[Insider]

Gilles V., on 11 June 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

We knew he was as fast as FA, but he was sometimes too anxious at the start or to anxious to overtake and made mistakes. This year, his speed is still there but he is now able to save his tyres and did not make any major (unless I'm forgetting one) mistakes in his overtaking manoeuvres or at the start. He only won one race, but is still in the fight for the top spot (which shows consistency). He severely beats Button in the same car, a little bit like FA does over Massa.

I' not quite ready yet to say he has joined the master at the top of the heap, but if he continues like this all year long and wins the WDC in such a fierce fight for the title, I will be forced to admit that he is as good as the master.

What do you think?

Button left him trailing in his wake last year. There is rarely more than 2-3/10ths between them unless Jenson has had a mare of some kind. He's certainly a much better asset to McLaren than Massa is to Ferrari.

[Insider]

The Shadow, on 13 June 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

No wonder he was having those pit stop problems. He was using a 2 year old car.

My bad

[Gilles V.]

Insider, on 14 June 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

He's certainly a much better asset to McLaren than Massa is to Ferrari.

No doubt about that. JB should be back, which should help LH in his quest for the title. Vettel can count on Weber (or is it the other way around?), but Massa is not there for FA, and that is a big handicap to overcome in such a tightn race. I hope Massa can be back two, because if he is not, FA's chances to win the title will be slim at best.