Would I dare to reply?
Nahh...I love "mediocracy/medoicracy/mediocrasy" too much.
1
Has Hamilton Become As Good As Alonso?
Started by
Gilles V.
, Jun 11 2012 02:21 PM
227 replies to this topic
#211
Quiet One
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:25 PM
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the Universe, and it has a longer shelf life" - Frank Zappa
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
#212
pabloh20
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:28 PM
Massa, on 18 September 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:
I moderate the forum with Insider, HandyNZL, and Kopite Girl. 
I don't like to over-step my duties. 99.99999999% of what I do is delete spam and ban spammers. It's very rare that I'll address a member. I just wanted to make sure we were clear on how to more appropriately express opinions. Thanks for your time.
And a damn fine job you are doing, Sir.
It's because you flit from post to post like a puppy in a room full of people, causing merriment wherever you go. And shagging their leg - Medilloni
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
#213
pabloh20
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:30 PM
Quiet One, on 18 September 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:
Would I dare to reply?
Nahh...I love "mediocracy/medoicracy/mediocrasy" too much.
Nahh...I love "mediocracy/medoicracy/mediocrasy" too much.
To be fair, we have always known this
It's because you flit from post to post like a puppy in a room full of people, causing merriment wherever you go. And shagging their leg - Medilloni
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
#214
Quiet One
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:33 PM
pabloh20, on 18 September 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:
To be fair, we have always known this
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the Universe, and it has a longer shelf life" - Frank Zappa
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
#215
pabloh20
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:39 PM
Quiet One, on 18 September 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:
And that's why I love you , babe.
Aww you are so kind............................no wait
It's because you flit from post to post like a puppy in a room full of people, causing merriment wherever you go. And shagging their leg - Medilloni
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
Rules are written for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men
#216
Jean-Pierre
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 02:58 PM
Like Alonso, I guess I'm mediocre, but not as mediocre as him of course.
Massa, you are doing a good job here IMO. I like your patience.
Massa, you are doing a good job here IMO. I like your patience.
The driver is more important than the car.
#217
Quiet One
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 03:04 PM
Jean-Pierre, on 18 September 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:
Like Alonso, I guess I'm mediocre, but not as mediocre as him of course.
Massa, you are doing a good job here IMO. I like your patience.
Massa, you are doing a good job here IMO. I like your patience.
"There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the Universe, and it has a longer shelf life" - Frank Zappa
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
"Great drivers are the ones who win the races they're not supposed to" - K.Chandhok
"On the rare occasions that I play a racing game I often think ‘you know what this needs? A boss battle or two.’ A Formula One game in which, suddenly, everybody else has a monster truck and their sole desire is to squash you. A street racing game with a tank or two blowing the roads and buildings to bits. A Nascar game with a track that occasionally bends to the right" (Adam Smith - RPS)
#218
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:23 PM
Quiet One, on 18 September 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:
Jean Pierre, Alonso is more mediocre than you. Please confirm you understood the message.
Done.
And he will show his mediocracy this week-end again, as Hamilton will.
The driver is more important than the car.
#219
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:42 PM
turbokick, on 18 September 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:
They lifted them AFTER alonso's support from FIA, before that they were PROHIBITED and their ¨abolishment¨ were only to ¨justify¨ alonso and Ferrari.
Whilst you are true that team orders were at one time banned, most people agree that rule was unworkable. Team orders happened on a regular basis, even if it wasn't as clear as "we want you to move out the way."
How do you define what a team order is anyway? Surely you could say a driver who gets an upgrade package before his team mate could be seen as a team order - that is favouring one of the drivers over the other one to improve their chances at winning the race and/or title.
Team orders are nothing new in motorsport, and I dare say you'd be pretty foolish to say that McLaren has NEVER used team orders since Hamilton entered the team. Just ask Heikki...
Edited by JHS18, 18 September 2012 - 04:43 PM.
#220
Massa
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:36 PM
First off, thanks guys. Appreciated. It's easy to moderate a forum when the members offer such great contributions.
Now, to F1...
I understand Turbokick's point about team orders to a small extent, but I don't see how there was preferential treatment from the FIA. Ferrari were penalized for the incident. The penalty just wasn't harsh enough to stop them from doing it. I don't think that's conspiracy as much as the FIA having absolutely no real basis for how to enforce a team orders rule, hence they had let "secret" team orders go unpunished, and once there was something blatant, they were kind of uncomfortable penalizing it.
Likewise, I think the sympathy for Felipe Massa is a bit narrow. Did Hockenheim discourage Massa? Sure. But before you blame Ferrari for damaging Massa's career, remember who built it in the first place. Don't forget that Ferrari shifted their weight behind Massa at the very first sight of weakness in Räikkönen back in 2008. Räikkönen had won the 2007 title, and Massa had been his equal to start 2008. Once Räikkönen had a tough stretch, they immediately made Massa a championship contender (and Massa failed to deliver). So, while you can argue, as you do, that Hockenheim damaged Massa's career, 2008-2009 very nearly damaged Räikkönen's. It fueled tons of speculation about whether or not Räikkönen was committed or talented or cared or whatever it was. As soon as Massa was injured, Räikkönen became more competitive again (as competitive as the F2009 could have been). It definitely played a role, directly or indirectly, in Räikkönen leaving the sport for a little while, and it certainly hurt his reputation on Internet forums (which is what keeps him up at night, I'm sure).
Ferrari owed Massa nothing and they gave him arguably more than he earned. In doing so, they earned the right to take that all away. I can't see the Massa situation (a worse driver yielding to a consistently better one) being more "unfair" than the Räikkönen one, and I can't see either one being unfair at all because that's just the sport, that's just life. Someone has to lead for the best interest of the organization and whatever reasons Ferrari have to back whichever driver, you have to roll with that. The goal is the WCC, not the WDC, for every team. Massa can be bitter or frustrated or whatever he wants to be now. He'll watch his children grow up in a great situation created by the income Ferrari paid him and all those feelings will pass.
On top of all that, if anyone read this far, I can't see how Alonso is worse driver because he gets preferential treatment over his teammate. It takes a special driver to be able to get both the team to rally around you and to deliver on that treatment. Alonso does. Massa struggled with the latter.
Now, to F1...
I understand Turbokick's point about team orders to a small extent, but I don't see how there was preferential treatment from the FIA. Ferrari were penalized for the incident. The penalty just wasn't harsh enough to stop them from doing it. I don't think that's conspiracy as much as the FIA having absolutely no real basis for how to enforce a team orders rule, hence they had let "secret" team orders go unpunished, and once there was something blatant, they were kind of uncomfortable penalizing it.
Likewise, I think the sympathy for Felipe Massa is a bit narrow. Did Hockenheim discourage Massa? Sure. But before you blame Ferrari for damaging Massa's career, remember who built it in the first place. Don't forget that Ferrari shifted their weight behind Massa at the very first sight of weakness in Räikkönen back in 2008. Räikkönen had won the 2007 title, and Massa had been his equal to start 2008. Once Räikkönen had a tough stretch, they immediately made Massa a championship contender (and Massa failed to deliver). So, while you can argue, as you do, that Hockenheim damaged Massa's career, 2008-2009 very nearly damaged Räikkönen's. It fueled tons of speculation about whether or not Räikkönen was committed or talented or cared or whatever it was. As soon as Massa was injured, Räikkönen became more competitive again (as competitive as the F2009 could have been). It definitely played a role, directly or indirectly, in Räikkönen leaving the sport for a little while, and it certainly hurt his reputation on Internet forums (which is what keeps him up at night, I'm sure).
Ferrari owed Massa nothing and they gave him arguably more than he earned. In doing so, they earned the right to take that all away. I can't see the Massa situation (a worse driver yielding to a consistently better one) being more "unfair" than the Räikkönen one, and I can't see either one being unfair at all because that's just the sport, that's just life. Someone has to lead for the best interest of the organization and whatever reasons Ferrari have to back whichever driver, you have to roll with that. The goal is the WCC, not the WDC, for every team. Massa can be bitter or frustrated or whatever he wants to be now. He'll watch his children grow up in a great situation created by the income Ferrari paid him and all those feelings will pass.
On top of all that, if anyone read this far, I can't see how Alonso is worse driver because he gets preferential treatment over his teammate. It takes a special driver to be able to get both the team to rally around you and to deliver on that treatment. Alonso does. Massa struggled with the latter.
Eric
#221
AleHop
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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:55 PM
Massa, on 18 September 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:
I moderate the forum with Insider, HandyNZL, and Kopite Girl.
You're Gary Cooper in High Noon against turbokick.
Fray Luis de León said:
As we were saying yesterday...
Tradition has it that he began his lecture the first day after returning from four years' imprisonment with the words "as we were saying yesterday..."
#222
freaky2
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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:17 AM
So Ferrari are god now... not bad. Nah, kidding, I quite agree with what you're saying Eric. Of course, the connection between what Ferrari give and what they taketh away may not feel fair to their drivers, especially when the Scuderia make it their daily goal to be almost as inconsistent as the FIA. There's also the issue with Ferrari relying much more on their "lead driver" than on their second, when we compare with the other teams it feels unfair. But, as Andrés has said more than once, Massa has the chance to prove himself against Alonso, especially now that the car is bad, to steal his lead driver status, and get all the benefits. Since he hasn't done it, we must assume that either he likes being Alonso's second, or just can't help it, in any of those cases he has to yield to the team orders. Now that Ferrari have found a real leader they won't hesitate in order to win the title. When comparing Alonso with Massa as they are now, it seems a cheap price to pay. After all, they don't deny him the chance to fight with any other driver and make as many points as he can - he just hasn't done it. Now it's far too late to complain - Alonso's 'mediocracy' has won him the day. Felipe has to wait until next year, if he gets there.
#223
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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:55 PM
...
Edited by turbokick, 23 September 2012 - 02:12 PM.
#224
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Posted 22 September 2012 - 08:08 PM
Why thank you!
Never stay up on the barren heights of cleverness, but come down into the green valleys of silliness ~ Ludwig Wittgenstein
#225
Massa
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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:33 PM
Do you have much success with that "sexy motherwhatever" line in real life, turbokick? It seems pretty smooth.
Eric
#226
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:14 AM
Wow...
How can one person have a lack of understanding in so many different things?
You amaze me, forced induction foot-assault...
How can one person have a lack of understanding in so many different things?
You amaze me, forced induction foot-assault...
Edited by The Shadow, 23 September 2012 - 01:14 AM.
Refer above for quotes
#227
JHS18
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Posted 23 September 2012 - 06:07 PM
Damn. He edited his post. Now I'm curious what he said.
Can anyone enlighten me?
Can anyone enlighten me?
#228
Jean-Pierre
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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:58 PM
Well, after season where he should have been WC - bad luck struct him bad - I think LH is now as good as Fernando.
The driver is more important than the car.
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