227 replies to this topic

[Argento Reloaded]

Yesterday Hami shown he is not up to Nando yet...

[DPR]

Hammy reminds me of "the little girl, with the little curl".
When he's good -he's very, very good - and when he's bad - he's horrid!

When Alonso (or kimi, or webber, or most others) have a bad day they still finish in the points, when Hammy has a bad day he usually finishes in the tyre wall.
Even though Maldonado managed to turn right in a left-hander, Hammy shouldn't have been tangling with anyone when his tyres were obviously dying.
Better to drop a couple of points, rather than all - I honestly think this is a great year for him to challenge for the WDC, but most podiums rather than most wins may do it.

[Massa]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

But what kind of question is this, if Hamilton demostrated being much superior pilor than the spanish swindler even in the year of his debut in Formula 1 (2007), he got more pole positions, more points and only the envy and lack of proffecionalism of the spanish gay deprived Hamilton, which in my opinion is the brightes talent in actual Formula 1, from his first championship, thus alonso gifted the cup to Raikonen. In my opinion the only thing alonso has is basenes, and he only demostrated being a quite dirty and envious pilot, while Hamilton is a genious and a very correct guy.
It's not very smart to compare a genious with latin swindler that only rely on his dirty play and his luck (which unfortunately demonstrates to be big one).

Cut the racist undertones and homophobia.

Thanks.

[turbokick]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Fascinating.

Clueless, but fascinating.

Welcome aboard Turbokick, you might have guessed by now that your views and mine will probably not be compatible.

Thanks man, I don't think that we are here to have views that coincide at all costs. Regards.

[AleHop]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

But what kind of question is this, if Hamilton demostrated being much superior pilor than the spanish swindler even in the year of his debut in Formula 1 (2007), he got more pole positions, more points and only the envy and lack of proffecionalism of the spanish gay deprived Hamilton, which in my opinion is the brightes talent in actual Formula 1, from his first championship, thus alonso gifted the cup to Raikonen.

Yes, that's what happened with Alonso in your dreams. Lewisterics aside, most of F1 fans, if not all, know what happened the 2007 season or the "Equal Treatment Farce" season. Equal treatment within McLaren? No. Equal treatment before the FIA? Nope. From Monaco to Hungaroring. And beyond.

We can talk about 2007 for ages. Like Monaco 2007 where Alonso was faster than Hamilton and if you look at the times lap by lap he would have never passed Alonso no matter how many laps he remained out pushing. He could only risk his 2nd place and McLaren 1-2 if a Safety Car was deployed. When you are faster you pick the best strategy because the only choice for the other driver is to start with a heavier car or a three-stopper. If two drivers pick the same strategy and one is faster you know what the result is beforehand.

You should have a look at Indianapolis 2007 where Alonso was faster FP1, FP2, FP3, Q1, Q2 and only Hamilton grabbed the pole because they gave Hamilton an extra lap so the rookie had a lighter car. That happened many times during the season, many times he took advantage of the extra lap and a lighter car. I could say Alonso's car in Bahrain was damaged as a lighting pod fell from the ceiling hitting his car and they had to have a look at it at Woking after the race but I think Hamilton did a better job there.

MONACO 2007: Hamilton accused his team of cheating against him during the FIA post-race press conference. That provoked an unfair investigation on Alonso and McLaren's victory in the Principality. Despite it all, Ron Dennis backed Hamilton before the media while avoiding to support Alonso's fantastic job in the amazing McLaren's 1-2 in the Monegasque GP. The team took no action whatsoever against Hamilton. During the race, Hamilton stepped over the continuous line when exiting the pit lane and he got away with it.

INDIANAPOLIS 2007: Pit stop strategies and team orders (rev. limit) were in favor of Hamilton and detrimental to Alonso. Alonso got p**sed off when the team ordered him to hold position and drive conservatively but he obeyed them. Of course, The FIA didn't investigate Hamilton's victory this time and Ron Dennis was delighted while he looked like attending a funeral in Monaco.

FRANCE 2007: Alonso faced problems with his gearbox cover during Q3 ending up on the tenth position of the starting grid. De la Rosa explained during the race that the defective part had been perfectly identified and removed.

GERMANY 2007: Many drivers slipped off the track when it was raining heavily. Despite what the rules say on that matter, a crane put Hamilton, and only him, back on the track under a high risk of collision with other drivers. Although the rules clearly specify that a driver must turn off his engine and get out of the car safely Hamilton was not penalised.

HUNGARY 2007: Despite the agreement with the whole team, Hamilton did not let Alonso take advantage of the extra lap he was entitled to on that Q3. After a controversial pit stop where they put worn tyres on Alonso's car, the Spanish managed to get the pole. Hamilton denounced his team and teammate before the Stewards and it cost McLaren the loss of points in the constructors' championship. Alonso got 5 grid penalty and, of course, nobody in the team took actions against that treason. Hamilton got away with it again.

ITALY 2007: Hamilton placed his car in the start box pointing to Alonso's. It was in clear breach of what the rules say about the start of a Grand Prix. There was no penalty for him nonetheless.

JAPAN 2007: Both Alonso and Hamilton had a racing incident with Vettel and Kubica respectively, but only the Pole was unfairly penalized despite the poor track conditions. The Spanish suffered serious damage on the back of his car and crashed into a wall a few laps later. Under the Safety Car, Hamilton skipped the rules completely causing an accident between two other cars. He got no penalty and the Stewards justified their decission because of the poor track conditions.

CHINA 2007: Alonso faced strange problems in Q3 after a flawless Q1 and Q2. The Spanish had been faster than his teammate in the three practice sessions but both tyre pressure and tyre warmers were not adjusted properly for the decisive round Q3. After the race, Ron Dennis admitted publicly that they were not racing against Raikkonen but against Alonso. The tyre warmers were sent to Woking for inspection.

Qualifying:

LH: 1:35.798 1:35.898 1:35.908
FA: 1:35.809 1:35.845 1:36.576
Df: Q1 0.011 Q2 0.053 Q3 0.668


From Monaco to Hungaroring Alonso did as much as he could to remain loyal to McLaren, it was Hamilton who denounce the team twice and he was always backed up by Ron Dennis. In the end Alonso didn't have any reason to trust his own team and he took revenge in Brazil 2007.


Sorry for the annoyances to the rest of the forum members.

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

In my opinion the only thing alonso has is basenes, and he only demostrated being a quite dirty and envious pilot, while Hamilton is a genious and a very correct guy.
It's not very smart to compare a genious with latin swindler that only rely on his dirty play and his luck (which unfortunately demonstrates to be big one).

Relax. Hamilton is a great racing driver. You're not doing him any good talking so bad about his pal Alonso.


Welcome to the forums!

[dribbler]

DPR, on 25 June 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Hammy reminds me of "the little girl, with the little curl".
When he's good -he's very, very good - and when he's bad - he's horrid!

When Alonso (or kimi, or webber, or most others) have a bad day they still finish in the points, when Hammy has a bad day he usually finishes in the tyre wall.
Even though Maldonado managed to turn right in a left-hander, Hammy shouldn't have been tangling with anyone when his tyres were obviously dying.
Better to drop a couple of points, rather than all - I honestly think this is a great year for him to challenge for the WDC, but most podiums rather than most wins may do it.

Remember, apart from this race, this year Lewis has finished every other race and in the points.

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Well, I think that insulting you don't demonstrate to be quite well-bred ang intelligent and yes, I'm not an Englishman and my english is far from beeing good, but this is not an English grammar forum, but a Formula 1 dedicated one, if you've got something to say to disprove my thesis submit it, if the only thing you can offer is your hostility and bad manners  then your utility and motoring knowledge is equal to 0 (I guess your intelligency level also) and you can keep them to yourself.
Maybe it's not the truth that Hamilton receives an unfair treat, and what happend yesterday in your opinion is something quite normal - the ¨job¨ McLaren's crew did for Hamilton, the more than 10 seconds lost, the wasted 2 posicion (he entered in the boxes 2 and returned to the race 8), your favourite Alonso that entered in boxes 7 and went out 3, I guess in your opinion this is Alonso's ¨great¨ driving, and the brightness of his talent...I think it's pointless to ask you about the ¨driving accident¨ that Hamilton suffered in the final laps caused by other ¨great¨  talent - Maldonado, and how many ¨driving accidents¨ has suffered Hamilton only in the last two years and where he could be without such ¨accidents¨ (that always happen to him).
And what to say about Alonso's finishing of yesterday's race, without taking his car in the boxes, for almost the same thing Hamilton was punished some weeks ago, but I think all these things doesn't matter for you, the important thing for you is Alonso wins (by all means) and my english. What a pity...

You arrived here and in your first post refer to arguably one of the finest drivers on the grid as a 'Latin Swindler'. This means you are either a racist, stupid, a child or all three. Don't expect to hget away with that. If I suggest that was stupid and it upsets you, that's too bad. Go find a forum that accepts that sort of thing. There are many people who post here who are not great with English and/or grammar. Frankly I don't care because they write with passion, respect, wit and knowledge. But I'll give you a chance.

I don't believe Hamilton receives unfair treatment. I believe he has had unlucky treatment. Lewis is one of may favourite drivers. For different reasons, Fernando is too.

Lewis beating Fernando in 2007 has become incidental, in my view. That's because I believe Fernando has improved since then. His second term at Renault built his character much more than Lewis's equivalent years at McLaren. Not only that, I think Fernando has always displayed a higher level of maturity and intelligence in and out of the car. Call it being that bit older, but there is a difference and it is making a difference to their respective results right now. He is more rounded, looks at the bigger picture, carries more authority in his aura, lives his personal life in private and acts and talks like a man, not a boy.

And lastly, I have no idea if Fernando was favoured by the FIA yesterday, no idea at all. But I'm not going to cry 'conspiracy' just yet. With Lewis's incident, he had 1.3 litres of fuel in the car on his cool down lap when the team told him to switch off the engine. The rules say that a car must have 0.5 litres for a sample, plus enough to get the car back to the pits, which was around 2.5 litres on that particular track. Maybe the FIA got swept up in the moment and forgot that Fernando stopped out on the track, but I don't believe so.

You decided immediately that I favour a 'win at all costs' type of behaviour and have a bias for Fernando. I have no idea where that came from. If you wise up and stick around you will find more objective and unbiased F1 fans on this forum than on any other F1 website.

Don't be surprised if some blast you in an attempt to preserve that.

Welcome.

[Jean-Pierre]

BradSpeedMan, on 24 June 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Nice to meet you Jean-Pierre

Same here Bradspeedman.

[Jean-Pierre]

Massa, on 25 June 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Cut the racist undertones and homophobia.

Thanks.

Ya, do that please. Because a forum where such language is accepted will loose many members, I for one.

[Jean-Pierre]

Argento Reloaded, on 25 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yesterday Hami shown he is not up to Nando yet...

Or, I thought, if at all possible, that Alonso is still improving! Masterful, really.

[turbokick]

I think you're partial, if you intent to tell me that Hamilton didn't have more points during all the 2007 I will not  agree with you because it's not true - Hamilton had more points than Alonso during all the season and he finished with more points.
If you try to reject that Alonso betrayed his team and this leaded to McLaren being exluded from constructor's championship and obliged to pay a big penalty (100 000 000 eur.) which consisted a signifficant part of Mclaren's next year budget, it would demonstrate you're not fair.
The season in 2007 was decided in the final race (in Brazil), on the start Hamilton had more points than every other pilot and he started from 2 posicion while Alonso started from 4 (he almost everytime is quite backwards from Hamilton, why if he is so faster...), then at the start he pushed Hamilton's car and thus managed to disactivate his gearbox for a short period of time, if this crash (totally due to Alonso's ¨fellowship¨) hasn't succeeded I'm sure that Hamilton would have gained his first championship - he had more points, more poles, more...I think that Alonso seeing that he won't become champion decided to not permit Hamilton become neither, this behaviour is not typical for a real champion, in my opinion.

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[AleHop]

Argento Reloaded, on 25 June 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Yesterday Hami shown he is not up to Nando yet...

It's been a costly mistake but the very first one in 8 races. He's not equal to Alonso if we're talking about knowing when to push and when to drive conservative but I think he's improved and has some other skills where he excells.

DPR, on 25 June 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

When Alonso (or kimi, or webber, or most others) have a bad day they still finish in the points, when Hammy has a bad day he usually finishes in the tyre wall.

I think most drivers, if not all, will have '0 points' for one reason or another. Mybe he got desperate after so many fckups in the pits. He's fighting for the WDC and it's the tightest one in ages, that small details can ruin a race and eventually a whole season.

dribbler, on 25 June 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

You arrived here and in your first post refer to arguably one of the finest drivers on the grid as a 'Latin Swindler'. This means you are either a racist, stupid, a child or all three. Don't expect to hget away with that. If I suggest that was stupid and it upsets you, that's too bad. Go find a forum that accepts that sort of thing. There are many people who post here who are not great with English and/or grammar. Frankly I don't care because they write with passion, respect, wit and knowledge. But I'll give you a chance.

I don't believe Hamilton receives unfair treatment. I believe he has had unlucky treatment. Lewis is one of may favourite drivers. For different reasons, Fernando is too.

Lewis beating Fernando in 2007 has become incidental, in my view. That's because I believe Fernando has improved since then. His second term at Renault built his character much more than Lewis's equivalent years at McLaren. Not only that, I think Fernando has always displayed a higher level of maturity and intelligence in and out of the car. Call it being that bit older, but there is a difference and it is making a difference to their respective results right now. He is more rounded, looks at the bigger picture, carries more authority in his aura, lives his personal life in private and acts and talks like a man, not a boy.

And lastly, I have no idea if Fernando was favoured by the FIA yesterday, no idea at all. But I'm not going to cry 'conspiracy' just yet. With Lewis's incident, he had 1.3 litres of fuel in the car on his cool down lap when the team told him to switch off the engine. The rules say that a car must have 0.5 litres for a sample, plus enough to get the car back to the pits, which was around 2.5 litres on that particular track. Maybe the FIA got swept up in the moment and forgot that Fernando stopped out on the track, but I don't believe so.

You decided immediately that I favour a 'win at all costs' type of behaviour and have a bias for Fernando. I have no idea where that came from. If you wise up and stick around you will find more objective and unbiased F1 fans on this forum than on any other F1 website.

Don't be surprised if some blast you in an attempt to preserve that.

Welcome.

[Jean-Pierre]

Massa, on 24 June 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

And how neither one is as good as Vettel.

Massa, before SV is considered anywhere near FA we need to see him in a less than par car fighting with the best during several races. We need to see him make passes that make you jump out of your chair.  In one word, he needs to excite us by his driving. Not just by being in front all race long with the best car, like a certain other driver did for many years.

[Massa]

I don't think Alonso deliberately lodged his car in such a way to deactivate Hamilton's gearbox (I don't even remember the contact, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen...I thought Hamilton pushed a weird button or something like that...but I've thought a lot of stupid things in my time )

What I do think, is that Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton are three different drivers who excel at different aspects, but are still very good in all of them.  Over the course of any different race or any different season or in any different equipment, any of the three could appear to be the absolute best in any category, whether that's raw speed or racecraft or tire management or whatever.  Right now, I would argue that Vettel has met his potential on a more consistent basis throughout his career, but has also had fewer opportunities to not meet his potential, and has admittedly had some pretty nice rides.

[AleHop]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I think you're imparcial, if you intent to tell me that Hamilton didn't have more points during all the 2007 you will not be able because it's not true - Ham had more points than Alonso during all the season.

They both finished with the same ammount of points but Hamilton finished 2nd and Alonso 3rd in the standings.

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

I think that Alonso seeing that he won't become champion decided to not permit Hamilton become neither.

That's what these guys do. They're a mix of grayhound racing dogs and fighting c#cks.

[Massa]

Jean-Pierre, on 25 June 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Massa, before SV is considered anywhere near FA we need to see him in a less than par car fighting with the best during several races. We need to see him make passes that make you jump out of your chair.  In one word, he needs to excite us by his driving. Not just by being in front all race long with the best car, like a certain other driver did for many years.

I definitely can see what you are saying.  This season, at Melbourne and Shanghai in particular, I've seen Vettel do some outstanding overtaking and defending.  It's a bit understated, but at the same time, there's merit in being calculated, precise, and cool.  You are correct, though; it is more common for Hamilton or Alonso to do something really, really exciting.

I think, and this could be all wrong, that Hamilton plays a game that opens the door for errors, and sometimes they bite him.  I think Alonso plays a game that opens the door for losing on raw speed, and sometimes it bites him.  I think Vettel plays a game that opens the door for...well...his competitors' own genius, really.  I've yet to see Vettel lose; I've seen him get beaten, but I've never seen him lose.

That's why I regard Vettel so highly, but certainly, with more years, we'll get a clearer picture of how he drives; I haven't found his deficiency, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.  Having all three so close and battling so tightly this year has been brilliant.  They're three incredible drivers and in some ways I'm finding it wonderful to not have a favorite among them.

[AleHop]

Jean-Pierre, on 25 June 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Massa, before SV is considered anywhere near FA we need to see him in a less than par car fighting with the best during several races. We need to see him make passes that make you jump out of your chair.  In one word, he needs to excite us by his driving. Not just by being in front all race long with the best car, like a certain other driver did for many years.

That certain other driver won at least a two or three championships in a not so dominant car. He had his crossing the desert years at Ferrari and was the best of his generation without the slightest doubt.

[BradSpeedMan]

Jean-Pierre, on 25 June 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Same here Bradspeedman.

Brad for short

[turbokick]

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

They both finished with the same ammount of points but Hamilton finished 2nd and Alonso 3rd in the standings.



That's what these guys do. They're a mix of grayhound racing dogs and fighting c#cks.

1. No, they didn't, Hamilton had more points. It' was enough for him to have finished 5 and he would have been champion, Alonso had to finish 1 and Hamilton more backwards than 5 to gain the championship. Who do you think deserved more to be the champion?


2. Is this your idea of fairplay, or just everything goes when the purpose is defending Alonso

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Quiet One]

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

It's been a costly mistake but the very first one in 8 races. He's not equal to Alonso if we're talking about knowing when to push and when to drive conservative but I think he's improved and has some other skills where he excells.

Yes. I would point that the main difference between him and Alonso is not knowing when to push and when to drive conservatively but, as Steve said, the ability to learn and mature. Alonso 2007 was a disaster even considering that everybody at Macca was a disaster,  but he moved on. In the meantime, he learned  how to be less hot headed, he kept being one of the hardest working guys in  the field (one of the boxes Vettel has ticked yet. Take notice of that), etc.

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

I think most drivers, if not all, will have '0 points' for one reason or another. Mybe he got desperate after so many fckups in the pits. He's fighting for the WDC and it's the tightest one in ages, that small details can ruin a race and eventually a whole season.

Lewis problem this year has nothing  to do with himself. He made a mistake. Many drivers did. Back to Alonso, he started 11th due to a ****up in qualy (they made 1 run with softs and one with primes instead of 2 with softs), and you could very well argue it is the 3rd race they make a big mistake (Monaco and Canada being other two big strategic errors in hindsight). Ability to recover from errors is another thing in which being a "good package" is better than being the faster or the best overtaker or whatever. What Nando lost at qualy he retook by overtaking cars on track (you need skills for that), controlling the tires (another skill), etc. Having more than one weapon is the key to consistency. You can't always count on having a car 2 seconds a lap faster than the rest.
If this had been a regular season, with speed/qualy being the only key factors, we would probably be discussing about Kimi/Seb/Lewis and Alonso will be the guy only you and I will be keeping an eye on. As it is, each race seems to need something different from the drivers. You can say that luck played a big part in Alonso's win at Valencia, but that same luck could have helped any other of the guys that where either ahead of him or had at least as good cars as him. Why didn't Di Resta won? Or Rosberg? Or even Schu or Kimi? Or Button? Or PDLR? Ok, that last one might be a bit of a stretch.
I think I am repeating myself too much, but I am not sure I am making myself any clearer.

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Indeed. I am amazed he actually read the whole post before replying. I know I didn't

[pabloh20]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

1. No, they didn't, until Brazil Hamilton had more points. It' was enough for him to have finished 5 and he would have been champion, Alonso had to finish 1 and Hamilton more backwards than 5 to gain the championship. Who do you think desrved more to be the champion?

Kimi?

[Rainmaster]

Where is maure when you need him?

Anyway, welcome to the forum Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton turbokick.

[JHS18]

turbokick, on 25 June 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

If you try to reject that Alonso betrayed his team and this leaded to McLaren being exluded from constructor's championship and obliged to pay a big penalty (100 000 000 eur.) which consisted a signifficant part of Mclaren's next year budget, it would demonstrate you're not fair.

So basically what you're saying here is that Alonso was bad to admit to the FIA that cheating was taking place? I know in the past Alonso's not exactly been the shining light of morality, but who has? Remember Hamilton lying to the stewards in 2009? Arguably that was a worse offence to lie to race officials, rather than in Alonso's case, admitting cheating was going on.

Interesting logic anyway.

Anyway, I've not always been a huge fan of Alonso. But over the last few seasons he has gained my respect, and yesterday's drive, lucky or not, was brilliant. Yes, he probably wouldn't have won if there hadn't been a safety car. Yes, he may not have won had Vettel not broken down. But he made overtakes and was in a position to capitalise when things fell into place. It seems like a less competitive car is making him drive even better than before.

And that's coming from someone who supports Vettel.

[turbokick]

pabloh20, on 25 June 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Kimi?

Kimi was in the middle between Hamilton (more points than all the others) and Alonso (last of the three).

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[turbokick]

Rainmaster, on 25 June 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

Where is maure when you need him?

Anyway, welcome to the forum Lewis Carl Davidson Hamilton turbokick.

Thank you man!

[Massa]

I'm just curious for an elaboration as to why you are regarding the standings after the penultimate round as more important than the standings after the final race.  I'm not saying you're wrong to do that, I just don't understand the thought process that where the drivers were going into Brazil holds more weight than where they were after the race.  Why should the final race not be included in the classification?  Or is that not what you are saying?

I guess to me, the full season is the full season, from race one to through the last one.  Therefore, Räikkönen had the most points over the full season, and Hamilton and Alonso were tied, with Hamilton ahead under the rules of tie-breaking.  How could Hamilton be better over the full season if we don't include every race in a full season?

[turbokick]

JHS18, on 25 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

...

Interesting logic anyway.

Anyway, I've not always been a huge fan of Alonso. But over the last few seasons he has gained my respect, and yesterday's drive, lucky or not, was brilliant. Yes, he probably wouldn't have won if there hadn't been a safety car. Yes, he may not have won had Vettel not broken down. But he made overtakes and was in a position to capitalise when things fell into place. It seems like a less competitive car is making him drive even better than before.

And that's coming from someone who supports Vettel.

Yes, Alonso's yesterday's drive was lucky, but IMO it was't brilliant, it was just a consecution of chances - imagine what would have happened if in first place McLaren's mechanics didn't do these enormous mistakes (I don't know how to call it, and it is not the first time they do this to Hamilton, recently in every race they waste an enormous amount of time to him), if Vettel's car didn't break, if Grosjean's car didn't break also, do you really think Alonso would have finished first or even would have been on the podium? Please man, don't tell me that you do...
Where is the brilliance of this victory - not being able to clasificate better than 12, and the reason to finish 1 is all better than you having their cars K.O., or have been forgotten in the pitstop for ages, lately to be hit by idiots...I see no brilliancy, no glory and no merit in such a win...

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Massa]

Outside of that, I too would like to ask turbokick: if you regard Hamilton as having been better in 2007 than Alonso, which is certainly fair when argued properly, how do they relate at present?  Has Hamilton widened his advantage over Alonso?  Has Alonso improved from 2007 and gotten closer to Hamilton?  Have they both stayed the same, or both improved by equal amounts?  Or did one, or both, get worse since then?  Even if you can say Hamilton was better in 2007, and maybe you can, can you say Hamilton is still better in 2012, and if so, by how much?  I'd love to know.

[Massa]

And then I'd like to ask turbokick: if there is no merit in a win where the lead cars retire and other teams make mistakes, what shall we do in those cases?  Should the FIA have abandoned the race when Vettel and Grosjean retired as there was no longer merit in winning it?  Should the FIA have not awarded points?  Again, I am curious, and I am not trying to be an ***hole as much as I am just trying to understand your thinking.

[turbokick]

Massa, on 25 June 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

I'm just curious for an elaboration as to why you are regarding the standings after the penultimate round as more important than the standings after the final race.  I'm not saying you're wrong to do that, I just don't understand the thought process that where the drivers were going into Brazil holds more weight than where they were after the race.  Why should the final race not be included in the classification?  Or is that not what you are saying?

I guess to me, the full season is the full season, from race one to through the last one.  Therefore, Räikkönen had the most points over the full season, and Hamilton and Alonso were tied, with Hamilton ahead under the rules of tie-breaking.  How could Hamilton be better over the full season if we don't include every race in a full season?

I think I catch your point, but I can't agree with you. For me when someone hit my car when I have more probability to win for being better, for having gained more points, for even having clasified better and this hit puts my car out of order for some seconds (which in Formula 1 means ages) I have all the reason to consider I deserve to win more than the man that hit me.

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[turbokick]

Massa, on 25 June 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

And then I'd like to ask turbokick: if there is no merit in a win where the lead cars retire and other teams make mistakes, what shall we do in those cases?  Should the FIA have abandoned the race when Vettel and Grosjean retired as there was no longer merit in winning it?  Should the FIA have not awarded points?  Again, I am curious, and I am not trying to be an ***hole as much as I am just trying to understand your thinking.

I don't say the points Alonso gained in Valencia don't count, only say it wasn't the brightest, the greatest, the most brilliant victory in the F1 history, like someone tried to convince me. Regards.

Edited by turbokick, 25 June 2012 - 05:10 PM.