41 replies to this topic

[sadam]

A few days back when some reports quoted Jacques Villeneuve saying something like "Alonso, Lewis or Vettel would have won every race in a Lotus". I really felt that Jacques Villeneuve was bitter with Kimi for some reason. Now, Villeneuve has been quoted saying that Lotus might ‘drop’ Raikkonen, because "he is usually behind Grosjean in pure performance" ( WTH?!). Some time before Kimi signed for Lotus, Villeneuve reportedly said Kimi's 2007 World Champion Title was not deserved.

What's the history between Kimi Raikkonen and Jacques Villeneuve? And why is Villeneuve sometimes so bitter about Kimi?

[Massa]

"He is usually behind Grosjean in pure performance" isn't being bitter.  That's a legitimate opinion (legitimate doesn't mean correct or incorrect) that can be defended based on race and qualifying sessions this year.  Grosjean's been better a lot.  It's a surprise to many who figured a comeback would be easier for Räikkönen than it has been, and a surprise to me, who thought it would be tough for Räikkönen but that Grosjean sucked so much it didn't matter.

The other quote is just useless hyperbole, but he has a point that the Lotus could have been a winning car in races had Räikkönen qualified better.  I don't watch qualifying so I cannot comment as to what the problem was, and "what if" scenarios are the stupidest things in the entire world so I don't really care what Villeneuve or anyone else thinks another driver would do in a Lotus.  Regardless, he's just using exaggeration to emphasize that if the #9 team as a whole, driver etc., qualifed better in some of the earlier races, they could have won.  He just had a dumb way of saying it.  Again, that's a legitimate opinion that can be defended, even if it isn't correct or incorrect.

Didn't deserve the 2007 title?  Of course he didn't; he was the first World Champion since Schumacher in 1995 who didn't have to beat Jacques himself to win the title.

I don't think Villeneuve's bitter about anything.  He's just unimpressed with Räikkönen and has a very overstated way of expressing that.

For the record, I agree that Grosjean has been as good as or better than Räikkönen this year but I find that to be more of an assertion of how good Grosjean has become over anything conclusive about Räikkönen's form because it is still year one of the comeback and I'll give him more time.  I don't care enough to agree or disagree what other drivers would do for Lotus because I honestly can't know when you get in this theoretical "if this team designed this car for this driver and ran these tracks with these drivers in those cars..." stuff.  I disagree that the 2007 title was undeserved because I think no title is undeserved.  He scored the most points and people are probably uncomfortable with the fact Massa had to yield two race wins to Räikkönen to do that; boo hoo.  I'm the only Massa fan on the face of the Earth and even I don't care.

[Insider]

I don't think JV dislikes Kimi as such, he just has a clumsy way of expressing his opinions. I thought he was pretty much on the button in the Sky broadcast even though he was very 'matter of fact' about his analysis and clearly, only there for the cash.

[Rainmaster]

Funnily enough, he was also critical when Kimi joined Ferrari. Clearly he lacked the decency to admit he was at least in part wrong when Kimi won the title. I don't know what their history is but Villeneuve's comment on Grosjean and Kimi's performance at least has some truth in it, even if the rest was stupid and unnecessary.

[Quiet One]

JV's self appointed role, not unlike Lauda's is that of a guy that always makes controversial comments. It's a good way to keep the press attraction when your music albums certainly didn't. As usual, he (and Lauda) know the F1 business enough to make comments that are not too off the mark, but often put into such a controversial way as to make them useless even when they are saying something pretty obvious (which, btw, is what they say in 90% of the cases)

In this case, he is not saying anything particularly interesting, insightful or valuable. Basically he is saying that: the Lotus seems very competitive out-of-the-box (true). Grosjean seems in better shape than Kimi at this moment (true). His 2007 WDC was a fluke (it all comes down to what make s a guy WDC 'deserved',,,a long discussion so it is at least debatable what JV said)

The first two points are pretty obvious to anybody who follows F1. The Lotus seems to  have good balance, good speed and is  gentle to its tires. Whether that translates into automatic winnings is another story, even in the most skilleed hands out there. Kimi has been qualifying lower than GRO most of the time (iirc), and considering the respective expectations, GRO seems to have exceeded those while Kimi has not. Nothing too damning so early into the season. Kimi might still become formidable and beat everybody to the WDC. The 2007 comment...I have no idea what was the context but sound like a mere phrase to shock the audience, more like an authentic debate on the way that season unfold.

Conclussion: JV needs to act like a clown so even when uttering tautologies he still acts like a clown. It's his role.

[Gilles V.]

Unfortunately, JV talks too much, always have. He should have taken example on his father. I even think that this flaw might have prevented him from having a longer F1 carreer. Remeber he talked a lot and was frind with this Graig Pollock freak, which did not help either because GP was disliked in the paddocks from what I've heard.

[AleHop]

Spoiler

I think KR is the type of guy that would protest naked around montreal venues.

[Quiet One]

He talks too much? I don't think so. I don't like 90% of what he says, more because of the way he says it than because of what he actually says.
Besides, there's this:

http://www.totalf1.c..._for_Raikkonen/

“Now, it’s like with a child,” an unnamed Lotus team member is quoted by the German-language Speed Week. “We’ve laid down six lollipops and he can choose one. There won’t be a seventh version of the steering for him.”

I am not sure at all of the credibility of the quote or the Speed Week magazine/web site whatever that is. But some signs lately pointed towrads some sort of shortcircuit between team and driver. Boullier and Lopez are not know for their tolerance or balance and Kimi is not an easy guy to get by (except as a drinks mate). I think it would be stupid not to fight to keep Kimi as a driver as whatever the differences, he is undeniable one of the best talents (whatever that means) out there.

[JHS18]

Any regular reader of F1 Racing magazine will know that JV comes out with a lot of claims on a monthly basis. My favourite one of his recent was that all drivers are "daddy's boys" and that the current generation of racing with DRS and KERS sends him to sleep. You have to wonder for someone who clearly dislikes Formula One now what he's doing spending so much time talking about it and being around the paddock.

[HandyNZL]

Well, Kimi didn't have to crash into anyone to claim his Drivers Championship, nor did he make a hash of almost not winning it in the most competitive car at the time like JV.

And Mr Gilles V. - it's Craig Pollock; there is no "G" at the start of the name Craig.

[Gilles V.]

HandyNZL, on 14 June 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

And Mr Gilles V. - it's Craig Pollock; there is no "G" at the start of the name Craig.

Oh, thank you, then i will continue to call Graig (I do not appreciate him at all).

[Massa]

JHS18, on 14 June 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Any regular reader of F1 Racing magazine will know that JV comes out with a lot of claims on a monthly basis. My favourite one of his recent was that all drivers are "daddy's boys" and that the current generation of racing with DRS and KERS sends him to sleep. You have to wonder for someone who clearly dislikes Formula One now what he's doing spending so much time talking about it and being around the paddock.

You never read my posts from 2008-2011, did you?

Jacques has a pattern of behavior.  Whatever series he can get a ride in is his absolute favorite, whatever series he can't needs to change everything about it, just like James Hinchcliffe and Paul Tracy have been and are, so maybe Québec and Canada aren't so different after all.

Villeneuve has been critical of IndyCar and Champ Car ever since he left.  He always said they need to merge and do this and whatever.  Then they did merge and now he has a laundry list of reasons he'd never do it.  But then he wanted to do the $5,000,000 challenge that Wheldon did until he couldn't get a ride with a top team and then the challenge was stupid and the series was a waste of time.  Just wait until he stops getting his two Nationwide races with Penske each year (coming up next week), and he'll tell you what there is to change about NASCAR.

If he had an F1 ride (I think he and Durango were a thirteenth team candidate at some point), he wouldn't be so critical.

He just wants to keep his name out there and all that.

And his new look.  I actually think bald is better for him than that mess he used to have.

[DPR]

Quote

Why Is Jacques Villeneuve So Bitter About Raikkonen?!

Because the idiot who only ever lived on his dad's name, can't even get enough sponsor money to pay for a drive with HRT.

[Massa]

I never understood why we blame children for benefitting from their parents.  I figure all parents want to help their kids succeed and if having the right last name helps get them started out, well, that's no different than my dad saying "hey I know this guy who can get you a job" or whatever, is it?  Name only gets you so far, too.  I haven't seen Greg and Leo Mansell on the grid, or Mattias Lauda, or that Hunt kid...becuase they all suck(ed), which Villeneuve didn't.

Villeneuve won the Indy 500, the CART championship when the field was at its deepest, and the F1 title that you can say was all car but I'd then challenge you to find me a champion where the car wasn't the best in the field (on top of that, Williams gained a lot from Villeneuve's feedback; he brought some sort of suspension advice over from CART that no one in F1 was using and it was apparently very useful...I don't remember the details).  It feels wrong to call him an all-time great because of how he is perceived, but he sure as hell as the accomplishments of one.  I don't know why we remember Mansell so fondly and Villeneuve so negatively.  Personality-wise, whatever, but driving wise, I can't spot the difference.  Two guys with both F1 and CART titles, all of which came with good teams and great cars, just like every other champion has had.  Only major difference is that Villeneuve got the biggest one on this continent in two tries; Mansell blanked in the same number.  Somehow one's Your Nige and the other's not even welcome in the paddock.  Bizarre.

[HandyNZL]

That's because their Nige had a mustache....

[DPR]

Quote

I never understood why we blame children for benefitting from their parents. I figure all parents want to help their kids succeed and if having the right last name helps get them started out, well, that's no different than my dad saying "hey I know this guy who can get you a job" or whatever, is it? Name only gets you so far, too. I haven't seen Greg and Leo Mansell on the grid, or Mattias Lauda, or that Hunt kid...becuase they all suck(ed), which Villeneuve didn't.

I don't have any issue with helping kids. However, the issue in this thread is WHY IS JV SO BITTER? and I still say it's simply jealousy born from the fact that he would love to still be driving but he couldn't even buy is way into a team, while a couple of other old-timers (kimi and schumi) still get paid handsomely to compete.

His F1 WDC came from an era of total domination by williams (even damon hill became champ in their car!). If his only legacy is being "the best of the famous offspring", then that's not much at all.
I guess he gets so much attention because he's still the last half-meaningful contribution that North America made to F1. But he sure is a bitter old man these days.

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 14 June 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

He talks too much? I don't think so. I don't like 90% of what he says, more because of the way he says it than because of what he actually says.
Besides, there's this:

http://www.totalf1.c..._for_Raikkonen/

“Now, it’s like with a child,” an unnamed Lotus team member is quoted by the German-language Speed Week. “We’ve laid down six lollipops and he can choose one. There won’t be a seventh version of the steering for him.”

I am not sure at all of the credibility of the quote or the Speed Week magazine/web site whatever that is. But some signs lately pointed towrads some sort of shortcircuit between team and driver. Boullier and Lopez are not know for their tolerance or balance and Kimi is not an easy guy to get by (except as a drinks mate). I think it would be stupid not to fight to keep Kimi as a driver as whatever the differences, he is undeniable one of the best talents (whatever that means) out there.

I do so like it when people talk about the spec in others' eyes when there is a log in their own.............

JV, I mean, not you.  Well, not you today, usually every other day you are like that, but not today............, well not in this post at least, let's go for that

Anyway, I can't remember Kimi having a history of complaining about steering, or any other car set up issues as such in the past (could be my selective memory), so if he was complaining about the steering in a car I had designed/built, I would make sure I fixed it for him.

[pabloh20]

Massa, on 14 June 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

I never understood why we blame children for benefitting from their parents.  I figure all parents want to help their kids succeed and if having the right last name helps get them started out, well, that's no different than my dad saying "hey I know this guy who can get you a job" or whatever, is it?  Name only gets you so far, too.  I haven't seen Greg and Leo Mansell on the grid, or Mattias Lauda, or that Hunt kid...becuase they all suck(ed), which Villeneuve didn't.

Villeneuve won the Indy 500, the CART championship when the field was at its deepest, and the F1 title that you can say was all car but I'd then challenge you to find me a champion where the car wasn't the best in the field (on top of that, Williams gained a lot from Villeneuve's feedback; he brought some sort of suspension advice over from CART that no one in F1 was using and it was apparently very useful...I don't remember the details).  It feels wrong to call him an all-time great because of how he is perceived, but he sure as hell as the accomplishments of one.  I don't know why we remember Mansell so fondly and Villeneuve so negatively.  Personality-wise, whatever, but driving wise, I can't spot the difference.  Two guys with both F1 and CART titles, all of which came with good teams and great cars, just like every other champion has had.  Only major difference is that Villeneuve got the biggest one on this continent in two tries; Mansell blanked in the same number.  Somehow one's Your Nige and the other's not even welcome in the paddock.  Bizarre.

I have no issues with JV as a driver, however, to me, he does seem to try too hard to be controversial with his comments and it all seems rather contrived, to be honest.  I'd rather people actually be contoversial by nature, or just not bother.  I can't stand half arsed attempts at it

At a guess, though, it seems one of the drivers you mentioned has delusions of grandeur, while the other seems grateful for every moment he had racing, even if he had a bit of a moany brummy voice.  I will leave you to guess which one is which

[pabloh20]

HandyNZL, on 15 June 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

That's because their Nige had a mustache....

Indeed.  Everyone remembers the tache.  Nobody remembers Merv the Perv for bowling either, just the tache

[Quiet One]

pabloh20, on 15 June 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Anyway, I can't remember Kimi having a history of complaining about steering, or any other car set up issues as such in the past (could be my selective memory), so if he was complaining about the steering in a car I had designed/built, I would make sure I fixed it for him.

This is what baffles me as well. Suddenly all this talk about Kimi being picky and his "narrow operative window" a la Button. That's not how I recall Kimi.

The Kimi I recall, was not picky at all, provided that the drink had enough octanes to fuel a middle sized rocket he was fine.

Seriously, as one of t he guys that always criticized him because he didn't seem to give any feedback to his team about his needs, I consider it a step forward that he is demanding improvements in  the car. Only the team knows if these are reasonable or not, but from a general public's point of view I have nothing to complaint about. I think this is another case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

And I agree with your view on JV as well...besides...since he shaved his head I feel somehow closer to him. Don't know why....

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 15 June 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

This is what baffles me as well. Suddenly all this talk about Kimi being picky and his "narrow operative window" a la Button. That's not how I recall Kimi.

The Kimi I recall, was not picky at all, provided that the drink had enough octanes to fuel a middle sized rocket he was fine.

Seriously, as one of t he guys that always criticized him because he didn't seem to give any feedback to his team about his needs, I consider it a step forward that he is demanding improvements in  the car. Only the team knows if these are reasonable or not, but from a general public's point of view I have nothing to complaint about. I think this is another case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

And I agree with your view on JV as well...besides...since he shaved his head I feel somehow closer to him. Don't know why....

Indeed

As you say, I can't remember Kimi being picky, so you have to wonder if it would be such a huge leap of faith for the team to trust him on this one.

[Argento Reloaded]

Maybe the "there won´t be a 7 steering version" statement helps a bit...

[pabloh20]

Argento Reloaded, on 15 June 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Maybe the "there won´t be a 7 steering version" statement helps a bit...

I treat that statement from Lotus like I would treat 'the cheque is in the post' statement, or indeed 'this won't hurt' statement

[Rainmaster]

I think Kimi is a "narrow operating window" sort of driver, and that became more obvious during his Ferrari years. That doesn't make him picky, it just means he has quite a sensitive driving style, like Button, only he's faster when it comes together for him. What is key with such a driver is to listen to their instructions and do what they say, like Mclaren always did, like Ferrari didn't, and like Lotus should do if they want long-term results rather than short-term rewards that Grosjean can offer. It might also explain Kimi's reputation as a driver who sometimes "turns up" and sometimes doesn't, and when he turns up tends to win by a big margin. It all points to a narrow operating window driver to me.

This is more of a feeling though, just from his results, rather than the basis of a dissertation

[Rainmaster]

In support of my view of Kimi as above, here's Andrea Stella, engineer to Alonso and former engineer of Kimi and Schumacher: "Kimi was very, very quick when the car was operating in a certain window. In this situation he can be the fastest, although when the car was not in that window, he had to work harder to find the optimal point with the car". He also has a few words about Alonso and Schumacher.

http://www.ferrari.c...e-attitude.aspx

Edited by Rainmaster, 18 July 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[BradSpeedMan]

Rainmaster, on 15 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

What is key with such a driver is to listen to their instructions and do what they say, like Mclaren always did, like Ferrari didn't, and like Lotus should do if they want long-term results rather than short-term rewards that Grosjean can offer.

What is also key is what u said here....I remember when Fernando tried Kimi's setup when he joined Mclaren and discarded it because it was so difficult to drive...

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 18 July 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 18 July 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

In support of my view of Kimi as above, here's Andrea Stella, engineer to Alonso and former engineer of Kimi and Schumacher: "Kimi was very, very quick when the car was operating in a certain window. In this situation he can be the fastest, although when the car was not in that window, he had to work harder to find the optimal point with the car". He also has a few words about Alonso and Schumacher.

http://www.ferrari.c...e-attitude.aspx

While I wouldn't dismiss what he says, he oviously knows a thing or two, but I find it hard to accept that you are getting the whole truth when a person/engineer is involved with another driver, or indeed, to some extent, while still involved in the F1 circus. Also, saying a driver has no weak points is a sure indication of keeping your employer sweet

It's also slightly ambiguous what he says, I think.  We know every driver has a sweet spot, but some drivers cope better when not in the sweet spot than others.  What  I can't quite make out, is he saying when he is not in the sweet spot, Kimi tries harder than Schumi and Alonso to find the sweet spot?  Or is he saying he has to work harder behind the wheel when he is not in the sweet spot?  If the latter, I would have said that was true of every driver.

Edited by pabloh20, 18 July 2012 - 08:33 AM.

[Ikyrotz]

pabloh20, on 18 July 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

It's also slightly ambiguous what he says, I think.  We know every driver has a sweet spot, but some drivers cope better when not in the sweet spot than others.  What  I can't quite make out, is he saying when he is not in the sweet spot, Kimi tries harder than Schumi and Alonso to find the sweet spot?  Or is he saying he has to work harder behind the wheel when he is not in the sweet spot?  If the latter, I would have said that was true of every driver.

I interpret that comment meaning that Kimi's style is fairly sensitive to the set-up of the car, and if the car is outside that optimal window, he needs to adjust his driving style more than some of the other drivers (specifically Michael and Fernando now).

[BradSpeedMan]

Ikyrotz, on 18 July 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

I interpret that comment meaning that Kimi's style is fairly sensitive to the set-up of the car, and if the car is outside that optimal window, he needs to adjust his driving style more than some of the other drivers (specifically Michael and Fernando now).

He's a manipulative driver, actually Schumacher falls under the same catagory, very in touch with the feel for the surface of the road. Thats why he is so sensitive with the steering etc. Alonso is more of the reactory type, a modern day Prost

[Rainmaster]

pabloh20, on 18 July 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

While I wouldn't dismiss what he says, he oviously knows a thing or two, but I find it hard to accept that you are getting the whole truth when a person/engineer is involved with another driver, or indeed, to some extent, while still involved in the F1 circus. Also, saying a driver has no weak points is a sure indication of keeping your employer sweet

It's also slightly ambiguous what he says, I think.  We know every driver has a sweet spot, but some drivers cope better when not in the sweet spot than others.  What  I can't quite make out, is he saying when he is not in the sweet spot, Kimi tries harder than Schumi and Alonso to find the sweet spot?  Or is he saying he has to work harder behind the wheel when he is not in the sweet spot?  If the latter, I would have said that was true of every driver.

I think he's saying that Kimi suffers more than Schumi and Alonso (and no doubt some others) when a car doesn't suit his driving style. It seems to me to be about adaptability; saying yes this guy can be really quick, but you have to give him a certain type of handling before that happens. Something which is less true of Alonso and Schumi (of old). There's room for interpretation though!

You definitely have to take the quote in the context of who it came from but at least in the case of Schumi and Kimi I don't see why he would be untruthful in any way. His comment on Alonso could just be seen as covering himself but then again I wouldn't dismiss it entirely either; it's not as if Alonso isn't a very complete driver.