178 replies to this topic

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 25 June 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

So much for the "No.2" curse with Vettel retiring more than Webber.

Without having the actual figures I would bet Webber had more mechanical glitches than Vettel in the past three years. I'm talking about KERS not working, staying in the garage FPs, etc. In any case it was a very interesting piece of information. Thank you very much.

[Rainmaster]

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

Without having the actual figures I would bet Webber had more mechanical glitches than Vettel in the past three years. I'm talking about KERS not working, staying in the garage FPs, etc. In any case it was a very interesting piece of information. Thank you very much.

Oh, I'm sure he has, just not ones which cost him retirements and race wins. Not bad for a number two driver.

[HandyNZL]

And it forgets that Vettel crashes in FP on average every third event...I believe he has shares in epoxy resin's or something....

[AleHop]

JHS18, on 25 June 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Was it even confirmed what Alonso's reason for stopping the car was?

He stalled the car just there for partying. :-D

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Staged? There was debris everywhere, most of it courtesy of the STR guys...so I assume iti was staged by RBR and Whitting...to  benefit Alonso, Kimi and Lewis?

Am I missing something?

Maybe we're all missing something?

http://totalf1.com/f...nt_in_Valencia/

[Massa]

Sounds like a sore loser to me.  He drove a flawless race as far as he could...now take it like a man and hope for better in Silverstone.  The FIA isn't out to get you, but Alonso, Hamilton, Webber, Räikkönen, etc. sure as hell are...

[Quiet One]

AleHop, on 25 June 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Maybe we're all missing something?

http://totalf1.com/f...nt_in_Valencia/

Oh, no. The fact that RBR can't handle defeat is a well known fact by now

One thing that DID struck me as odd is why they did not put another SC when Vettel's car was being removed from the track. Here only a tiny fraction of the scene was shown but you could see the marshals trying to push the car out while other cars passed at full speed mere inches from them. Scary stuff.

[JHS18]

Another point on the SC - was it just me or did it take an awful long time to pull off circuit? The debris didn't take long to clear, and we were waiting most the time for cars to catch up or be waved by.

It wasn't helped by the fact the SC was called the second Vettel had just gone past pit out and the track is particularly long, but still. I like the fact they move the lapped guys out the way again as it means we get to see a proper restart, but maybe it is something to look at in future?

Edited by JHS18, 25 June 2012 - 10:42 PM.

[Quiet One]

JHS18, on 25 June 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

Another point on the SC - was it just me or did it take an awful long time to pull off circuit? The debris didn't take long to clear, and we were waiting most the time for cars to catch up or be waved by.

It wasn't helped by the fact the SC was called the second Vettel had just gone past pit out and the track is particularly long, but still. I like the fact they move the lapped guys out the way again as it means we get to see a proper restart, but maybe it is something to look at in future?

It didn't took that long. The problem is that the lap  itself is long so you can't have a "short" SC period unless you pull it out midlap. I don't know how much debris was cleared out but when the SC came in it was surely lots of debris over many parts of the track. The Vergne incident was just  the most notorious but already ou could see many little bits all around. I don't  think it was a bad call. there was even some sort of hat or something like that one car picked up at some moment!

[LabradoRacer]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

there was even some sort of hat or something like that one car picked up at some moment!

Haha, yeah, I too saw that. Thought it was a straw hat or something.

[dribbler]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

there was even some sort of hat or something like that one car picked up at some moment!

It's said that driving over one in qualifying can give you a straw pole.

Okay fine.

I have been here seven years. You know I'm not going to get any funnier. Don't beat me up over it.

[Rainmaster]

Regarding Red Bull conspiracy theories: I would take anything you read in "yallaf1", that trusted F1 site we know and love, with a large pinch of bulls##t.

In any case the SC was deployed for good reason, which should be obvious enough to anybody who watched. And it did take a very long time to pull in, due to cars catching up. What was surprising is what Andres pointed out, those marshals were moving a car out of the way in such a fast zone of the track with cars coming at them. That was really dangerous, and to me it seemed like the FIA/race direction were reluctant to deploy the SC again.

[AleHop]

The hat was a WTF? moment. Hahaha.

I watched it again and I realised what QO was talking about. The Marshalls were moving Vettel's car on the track while others passing very close. It was a WTFWTFWTF??? moment.

[pabloh20]

AleHop, on 26 June 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

The hat was a WTF? moment. Hahaha.

I watched it again and I realised what QO was talking about. The Marshalls were moving Vettel's car on the track while others passing very close. It was a WTFWTFWTF??? moment.

Indeed.  If there is any cry of conspiracy theory for getting the SC on track for debris, then it will be negated by that incident as there should have been a SC in that instance.

Edited by pabloh20, 26 June 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[AleHop]

This is for Alonsosterics only.

I mean for Andrés.

http://www.larazon.e...-de-la-curva-21

It's in Spanish. The story of an unemployed mechanic that worked as marshal where Alonso stopped the car and all that and how Alonso was very happy and emotional and all that.

And another one with some pics: http://www.marcamoto...to-20-y-el.html

[AleHop]

Rerewatching the race, as I always do when I can with an eventful GP, I realised Schumacher got emotional on the radio when he knew he had got a place on the podium. He's won so much I didn't expect that TBH. It was a nice moment that I missed with all the bells and whistles about Alonso's win.

Then I watched and read a few post race analysis were the word 'luck' is in some way used to explain Alonsos's win in Valencia. Ok, we can say Alonso was lucky, it just depends on the meaning of 'luck' we pick.

A lottery ticket is handed out on Sunday morning to Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher, Webber... They sit down in their cars and a little girl with the eyes closed picks the final order. That would be luck.

On Sunday Alonso, Raikkonen, Schumacher, Webber... and their teams, equipment, etc. all did their job. Then a few things out of their control put them in a better place in the race and they took advantage of it. Is that luck? Maybe, but a different concept of 'luck'.

[Rainmaster]

One or two "lucky" victories can happen to anybody, but it is so often Alonso who puts himself in the position to profit. Why? Because he is F1's best opportunist, which is because he is more versatile than most of his rivals, a more complete driver with more weapons at his disposal. These are only fine margins rather than broad differences, but fine margins can make a big difference over a GP weekend, esp. in such a close era. The thing to notice about "luck" is that it almost always favours those who maximise their opportunities in the first place, those who put themselves in the best position; it is the same in most things in life. A great sporting quote is "the harder I practice, the luckier I get". For Alonso the quote is "the better I drive, the luckier I get". Raikkonen could have been "lucky" too if he'd been more decisive in his passing attempts. Renault teams could have won if they hadn't manufactured defective parts (not bad luck, but a clear error if you dig deep enough). Hamilton could have been "lucky" had Mclaren perfected their pit stops, he managed his tyres better, they designed a better car for managing its tyres, etc etc. The more you look into luck, the more you will find it crumbles into smaller and smaller errors which have a snowball effect.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 28 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

One or two "lucky" victories can happen to anybody, but it is so often Alonso who puts himself in the position to profit. Why? Because he is F1's best opportunist, which is because he is more versatile than most of his rivals, a more complete driver with more weapons at his disposal. These are only fine margins rather than broad differences, but fine margins can make a big difference over a GP weekend, esp. in such a close era. The thing to notice about "luck" is that it almost always favours those who maximise their opportunities in the first place, those who put themselves in the best position; it is the same in most things in life. A great sporting quote is "the harder I practice, the luckier I get". For Alonso the quote is "the better I drive, the luckier I get". Raikkonen could have been "lucky" too if he'd been more decisive in his passing attempts. Renault teams could have won if they hadn't manufactured defective parts (not bad luck, but a clear error if you dig deep enough). Hamilton could have been "lucky" had Mclaren perfected their pit stops, he managed his tyres better, they designed a better car for managing its tyres, etc etc. The more you look into luck, the more you will find it crumbles into smaller and smaller errors which have a snowball effect.

Ok, enough! Now I will just pick some random post from a random forum member and start my rant from there. No, seriously...I mean anybody's!

Ok, it was George's. Wow! What are the odds?

I think the whole "lucky/unlucky" thing is as unfair as it gets. If we were talking about any other driver nobody would be even mentioning luck as the main factor. And that's how it should be. Alonso overtook CARS (yeah, in capitals because he didn't overtook a bunch of Caterhams and Marussias with DRS help at Monza...he overtook Grosjean, Rosberg, Schumacher, Button, Kimi...all ON TRACK. And we are talking about Valencia, ladies and gentlemen.

Places inherited? P1 from Vettel. Everything else was hardly fought and legitimately won. Button started ahead of him and last time I checked Jenson was driving a McLaren, not an HRT. Unlike Alonso, Button was "lucky" to have benefited in track placement not just because of Seb but also thanks to GRO and HAM DNFs...Do I really have to go there?

Vettel car was 1 second a lap faster than the second best, give or take a couple of tenths at most (not my opinion, but said by other F1 pundits). Why winning in such a car been more glorious than Alonso's win? Because he was faster? Yes, he was faster in a faster car which also proved to be more fragile. Is a faster, more fragile car more "deserving" of a win than a slower but sturdier car? On which grounds? What about a drag race car then? You can speed up at 400+ km/h car and crash at the first corner. There you go! THE BEST!

Lewis was being eaten alive by Alonso before and after the SC even not taking in account that certainly it wasn't Alonso or Bernie or the powers that be who got him into a useless tangle with Maldonado, expecting to come out unscathed from that (then again, Pastor was overtaken ON TRACK by Nando with no fuzz...) shuold I go there instead?

Kimi...Kimi "the Iceman" doubted for enough laps behind a clearly struggling Lewis before overtaking him. Who has him to blame for his 2nd place? Seconds lost at some pitstop? Didn't he also start ahead of Nando in the superfast Poochie??? Isn't he THE ICEMAN? Come on...

Schumi? The 7 times old dog WDC did not benefit? Did he really deserve the podium when a couple of laps before seemed "lucky" for ending up 6th at most after being overtaken more than overtaker?

Webber? Ahh, yes, he fought hard. Did you know he went from 19th to 4th? How many drivers can do that? Answer: 99%. And they do. Perez does that trick every other race. Lewis and his fans comforted themselves through all past season from the stupidest self destruction season ever witnessed from some top driver with  the fact that he "overtook a lot of cars on track!!" And last year that was the true mark of a champion. Apparently, this year is not. Unless you are Webber. Although it was easier for him than for Perez or Lewis. Glock didn't race, after all. That's one "inherited place"

Ahhh...i fell so much better now!

And this, of course, is a word by word reply to all the stupid points raised by George in that stupid post he made which I will actually read once I press the "Post" button.

[Rainmaster]

I've got to stop walking into this!

But yep, luck is just a matter of perception and a good way for bias to manifest itself.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 28 June 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

I've got to stop walking into this!

But yep, luck is just a matter of perception and a good way for bias to manifest itself.

Please don't! I actually laughed while typing my rant. I just looooove to use your posts as excuse.

And yes, as usual, we agree. But you use too few words and make too much sense. That is boring. Besides, you are lucky that Maure is not posting anymore. You inherited his place.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

"luck" is for losers who moan about not having any.

The reality is that what other people perceive as luck can also be described as "being careful", "having skill", "planning" or "taking a chance".

[Ikyrotz]

Quiet One, on 28 June 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Ok, enough! Now I will just pick some random post from a random forum member and start my rant from there. No, seriously...I mean anybody's!

...

I agree with everything you said there, Alonso certainly made his own luck there and was the best of the bunch. But, he did not pass Kimi on track, so there

[Quiet One]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 28 June 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

"luck" is for losers who moan about not having any.

The reality is that what other people perceive as luck can also be described as "being careful", "having skill", "planning" or "taking a chance".

Damn right, sir!
We are so lucky to have you posting here.


Wait...

[Quiet One]

Ikyrotz, on 28 June 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

I agree with everything you said there, Alonso certainly made his own luck there and was the best of the bunch. But, he did not pass Kimi on track, so there

You are right! Sorry, my mistake!

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

Quiet One, on 28 June 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

Damn right, sir!
We are so lucky to have you posting here.


Wait...

Pah! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries!

[Delta]

Quiet One, on 25 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

It didn't took that long. The problem is that the lap  itself is long so you can't have a "short" SC period unless you pull it out midlap. I don't know how much debris was cleared out but when the SC came in it was surely lots of debris over many parts of the track. The Vergne incident was just  the most notorious but already ou could see many little bits all around. I don't  think it was a bad call. there was even some sort of hat or something like that one car picked up at some moment!

It's mainly the "lapped cars may overtake" bit that extended the SC period, the debris itself was gone within a couple of laps. I'm surprised they didn't pull the SC out again for Seb's car, seeing cars go past the marshals with less than a couple of feet of space at full racing speed was scary. If a car had a mechanical failure in that corner or had gone offline they would have been wiped out. But I'd wager it's simply a case of poor management rather than some conspiracy to harm Red Bull. In fact if you believe Renault, the cooling down behind the safety car should have extended not reduced the life of Seb's engine.

[Quiet One]

For the gearheads out there, perhaps you can extract some meaningful conclusions from this video. For me, it's just some crazy, dizzying view. I hate ignoring so much about so many things!

Qualy laps:

[Massa]

Only thing I really noticed was that Grosjean uses more of the track than Alonso does.  Not sure what it means.  I'd love to see each driver's lap separately and compare.

[maure]

Quiet One, on 02 July 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

For the gearheads out there, perhaps you can extract some meaningful conclusions from this video. For me, it's just some crazy, dizzying view. I hate ignoring so much about so many things!

Qualy laps:

Yep. The (no longer) gradual death of the driver at the hands of telemetry.

[AleHop]

Alonso has more work to do on the steering. Then the two Lotus and finally Vettel has the most stable car of the four.