208 replies to this topic

[JHS18]

Also re: Grosjean ban.

Have to admit, found it a bit strange. He f*cked up today of course, but really how was that worse than Maldonado deliberately making contact with Perez in Monaco? In my eyes an...err...accident is not as serious as an incident that is premeditated.

Is it because today Grosjean took out two of the key title protagonists that they came to this decision? Who honestly knows how the FIA thinks?

Once again, no consistency in the penalties, and rather bizarre result.

Still, there's the saying in racing that you can't teach a driver to drive fast - you can either do it or you can't. But you can teach someone on how to stop crashing. On the long run, it'll probably do him good. The kid has obviously got raw speed - he just needs to calm down a little bit.

[Rainmaster]

@JHS and just generally,

My main thought after the crash and seeing Alonso out was: well this championship just got more interesting, and this race just got a lot more boring (of all the drivers I don't want to see out of a GP it's Alonso, because he is good value, and Hammy would be second on that list). Only after he stayed in the car for a moment did I even being to worry about him being injured; probably a result of how safe these cars are now. But I refuse to believe that because his health wasn't my first thought, I'm a bad person Replays added perspective. Anyway I don't think even a biased sort of reaction ("yes the driver I don't like is out") makes someone a terrible person or is worth attacking them over. Being out of the race and being injured and out of the race are different things. I doubt anyone here would wish injury on a driver even if they'd be happy to see them out of the race. Our instant, honest reactions to things are not the same as our logical thoughts about them once we have time to think.  Of course Jay should constantly be attacked for not appreciating Alonso more

I think premeditated acts are far worse too (at least in fault if not in consequence) and Maldonado should have got a serious punishment for Monaco, especially since it wasn't the first time he used his car as a weapon. But deliberate acts and reckless acts/mistakes both require punishment, they can after all be equally dangerous, and certainly need looking at when they are almost always the result of the same issue (spatial awareness in the case of RG). That's why I support a ban for Romain. I'd probably support one for Pastor too if he continues to misbehave. The FIA are inconsistent but that's not news.

Is there any word on whether Schumi is getting punished? He shouldn't imo, racing incident albeit a sloppy and stupid one. And did Maldonado jump the start, is/has that been investigated? Looked like a ridiculous jump start to me.

Edited by Rainmaster, 02 September 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Massa]

I was just being a whiner.  The consequences factor into normal law, not just sporting law.  I think it's fair enough.

George, I've missed all of Grosjean's other incidents.  I think I was actually a lot more insightful when I didn't watch the races and just read about them, then I am now, watching them for myself and not reading.

I have no complaints about the penalty, and it will be interesting to see if Jérôme d'Ambrosio has any useful attributes.

[Massa]

Also: ten places on the grid for Maldonado at Monza.  Jumped start.

I'll take their word for it.  I didn't see it but I think Ikyrotz had it right; the car was moving before the viewer can see it moving.

[JHS18]

Well, my point was it is never nice to see an accident, regardless of your thoughts of the driver involved. I'll admit, I'm happy when I see Hamilton not win, but I still wouldn't say I enjoy seeing him crash out. Crashing is part and parcel of every form of racing of course, and I guess my reaction was a bit of a rash one. But still, you know that is one area that I don't like about the sport, so called fans wish for drivers to be involved in accidents or whatever. You're entitled to your own opinion, but in my opinion that isn't what being an F1 fan is really about. Support your guy, sure, but wish someone else to be involved in an accident/cheer when they are?

I think some people forget about the danger aspect. Sure, everyone involved today was unhurt, but it wouldn't have taken much more for Alonso/Kobayashi/Hamilton to HAVE been hurt. To cheer that they're involved before knowing the full story? As I said before, it seems a bit strange. Obviously you can tell straight away if it is really serious or not - but even "less serious" injuries, such as a back injury, leg/arm injury or whatever they're not exactly pleasant are they? Would you still be happy that they were out the race if it turned out they still had serious but non-life threatening injuries? I know I wouldn't want that on my concious - but to each their own I guess.

Whatever, everyone's entitled to their opinions, and I didn't mean for it to become personal. I'll quit rambling on.

I think Maldonado was penalised because of something else, as well as that jump start. Seems that contact that ended his race (that we never saw) also got him a penalty.

He needs to stop walking under ladders, or alternatively, start driving better.

[Argento Reloaded]

JHS18, on 02 September 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Also re: Grosjean ban.

Have to admit, found it a bit strange. He f*cked up today of course, but really how was that worse than Maldonado deliberately making contact with Perez in Monaco? In my eyes an...err...accident is not as serious as an incident that is premeditated.

Is it because today Grosjean took out two of the key title protagonists that they came to this decision? Who honestly knows how the FIA thinks?

Once again, no consistency in the penalties, and rather bizarre result.

Still, there's the saying in racing that you can't teach a driver to drive fast - you can either do it or you can't. But you can teach someone on how to stop crashing. On the long run, it'll probably do him good. The kid has obviously got raw speed - he just needs to calm down a little bit.

In 4 races from 11 Grosjean didn´t pass through the first corner... isn´t this enough?
Regarding Lewis he started whining like in 2008... Williams needed money to make a very good car and now they are needing money to hire decent drivers! Maldonado has a mental disorder... and maybe Grosjean too!

[Quiet One]

Ok I feel a little weird here defending the guy that probably has ruined Alonso's championship for good but...

- The consequences were a heavy crash, but as lucky as Alonso was for still having his eyebrow above his neck it was not a homicide. Nobody died, let's not forget that. And the cause was an entirely innocent (if ill performed) typical "first straight squeeze". So what we basically have is a car squeezing another, making contact and causing a crash...He did not swerve violently against Hamilton. He was not trying to ram Alonso. He was simply stupid like so many others, and extremely unlucky in the consequences. If the possible consequences of these manoeuvres are to be taken into account (and to a certain degree they should), then the whole scale of punishments should be re worked. Swerving against other cars (like Seb did this race after one of his overtakings for example) should be punished more harshly than GRO as there is not just the risk of similar or worse results but also a clear intent. Schumi against VET? Schu vs BAR in the past? ALO vs VET at Monza? HAM against half the grid? Massa everyday even on non racing days?

Errr...I still do not see the cause for a one race ban there.

I don't know. I am still not convinced at all about the ban. I think it is unfair, even if my heart yells "Kill him now! I'll pay for the bullet!"

[Quiet One]

One  more thing. Tis coming from the Driver of the Day, of the Year, from the Decade and well up top among the Best of Best:

Quote

I am not angry with Grosjean, he definitely didn’t do it on purpose: it was a case of me being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is the guy that has been vituperated for years as being a "whinner".

Somebody else might win the Championship. But nobody else will be as worthy of it as this guy

Respect.

Edited by Quiet One, 02 September 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Massa]

But bans are fun.

When was the last driver-only (and not team) ban?  Schumacher in 1994 for ignoring a black flag?  I guess Ide losing his Super License in 2006 was sort of a ban, too.

[Quiet One]

Massa, on 02 September 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

But bans are fun.

When was the last driver-only (and not team) ban?  Schumacher in 1994 for ignoring a black flag?  I guess Ide losing his Super License in 2006 was sort of a ban, too.

No idea but they are very rare indeed and should only be used for the most blatant of rule breacing cases.

I would have loved to be in the stewards room when they studied this case. Elise Salazar would have what your Yogi Berra would have called a strong case of "Dejá Vu all over again"

Eliseo: "Hey, guys, what happened to Romain could have happened to anybody. You hear me? ANYBODY!"

[Rainmaster]

Alonso also conveniently pointed out that Grosjean had 7 accidents at the start this year, and that it was a good time for the FIA to look at driving standards. So yes, his was an extremely classy reply, but also one which had plenty of venom (and quite rightly). Again, if it was the first time I don't think anyone would discuss a race ban for a simple reckless move (but let's not get this out of context, this was a very reckless move not just a minor lapse). But it happened so many times with Grosjean that he didn't show any regard for other cars. I think it's hard, but fair, and I'd be very surprised if the Lotus team or Romain had any complaint about it whatsoever.

Last ban was indeed Shcumi, according to the Beeb.

[JHS18]

I remember something that Charlie Whiting said a couple of years ago. He said that it is very hard to penalise anyone at the start of a race just because there's so much movement and so much going on.

Seems like that has changed after today. Will this decision set a dangerous precedent for future?

Edited by JHS18, 02 September 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[freaky2]

Well, if the ban has been decided by carefully considering the precedents, then it might help Grosjean to cool off a bit. If it's only the consequences that matter then that's another case, about the fairness of the judgement. A bit of both would be the sensible approach: for how long do we tolerate actions that are potentially very dangerous? But now I'm repeating what someone already said.. au revoir!

[Quiet One]

Nah, he didn't, unless according to the source I found: http://www.totalf1.c...a_great_relief/

He does say that " I think that certain drivers should try and take fewer risks at the start: it’s a bit of a tendency currently in the junior formulae, but it would be better, if right from the start of their career, they got used to respecting more strictly the rules relating to behaviour on track.", which, considering that he is still in pain from the accident and how many bad consequences it had, is both surprisingly mild and also true. Take into account that he is not accusing Romain of anything, but the current F1 for not making sure that the guys from junior formulae don't carry over the vices from such categories to F1, something that has been pointed many times.

Alos, nobody in Ferrari decided to "pull a Marko" and say something harsh in place of Alonso. No "cucumber", no "monkeys"...for once (yeah, I would never consider Ferrari as the kings of chivalrous behavior) they were all better in these circumstances than what other teams and drivers have been in recent past.



EDIT: my reply was aimed at George.

For a change

Edited by Quiet One, 02 September 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Massa]

Dangerous precedent sounds a bit overdramatic, and I'm not sure anything changed.  He said "very hard," but not "impossible."  I think he meant, not seeing the quote, context, or hearing his tone of voice, that it isn't always clear what happens on a start.  But if it were clearly a violation, it would be penalized.

If not, well, rules and their enforcement always evolve to maintain effectiveness.  I'm not really for or against the ban, but if it puts some respect back into it, fine.  It's a selfish sport and it should be a selfish sport, but it's also a dangerous one, and while safety developments are truly great, they also take the incentives out as far as being cautious and clean goes.  When you have such safe cars, drivers feel invincible and will cross lines...it's a debate they have all the time in ice hockey, i.e., the padding has actually made the hitting even harder and resulted in more concussions because, pre-padding, the player administering the hit got hurt as much as the guy being hit did.  Usually, when you add safety, you also have to add rules and punishments because it stops being self-punishing.  So if you're going to step it up to put some respect back into driving, I'm fine with that.  I want hard, aggressive racing, but I don't want cheapshots, so if these fines or grid penalties or whatever aren't getting the message across, fine.

[Rainmaster]

Well even with your quotes Andres, excuse me if I relate the fact Alonso got hit by a driver who recently came from lower formula, and then minutes later when interviewed about the incident started talking about driving standards of lower series... I think we can understand that yes he is talking generally, and also reasonably infer that his general comments on driving standards definitely include Grosjean. It's just a classier way of saying the same thing: Grosjean's move was out of order. He did make the "7 accidents in 12 starts" comment and he did bring up driving standards and the FIA, in a different interview. So yeah, he did put the spotlight on Grosjean's driving, but in a classy way without calling him an idiot or anything like that. Not criticising Alonso here, I think the way he handled it is Raikkonen-esque. And I'm not saying he supports the ban either, but he seems to support the idea that something needed to be done.

The only precedent it sets is: don't drive into other cars at the starts. Which already existed! The fact it's hard to judge incidents at the start is inconsequential here; this was a clear cut misjudgment if we ever saw one.

[BradSpeedMan]

JHS18, on 02 September 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Firstly, when have I called someone stupid on here other than earlier?

My reaction may have been a bit severe, but it does frustrate me when so called "fans" cheer when drivers are involved in accidents - particularly as one as nasty as that. To celebrate that they've crashed when you don't know the full scale of any potential injuries is a bit ghoulish. You may as well watch a demolition derby if you want to see crashes.

I apologise for the over-reaction, but surely you must understand what I mean?

I do, it's just that I think you misinterpreted Jay's reaction. Knowing Jay from conversing with him on here, I don't for a moment think it was done with malicious intent. I also had a GGEEEZZZZ moment when I saw the Lotus fly inches away from Alonso's head, then a bit of concern when he did'nt get out immediately with the marshalls trying to lend assistance, but we must realise that this is racing and still a very dangerous sport. Anything can happen. Kimi did a very dangerous move on Schumie at the bottom of AuRouge, got away with it but it could have ended up in tears had it gone wrong...

[Massa]

The math easy enough for everyone to do, but boring enough that only I'll do it...championship scenarios:

For Vettel to win the WDC, he needs to gain an average of 3 points per race on Alonso, while not allowing the others behind to catch (see their individual scenarios).

For Webber to win the WDC, he needs to gain an average of 4 points per race on Alonso and 1 point per race on Vettel, while not allowing the others behind to catch (see their individual scenarios).

For Räikkönen to win the WDC, he needs to gain an average of 4.125 points per race on Alonso, 1.125 points per race on Vettel, and 0.125 points per race on Webber, while not allowing the others behind to catch (see their individual scenarios).

For Hamilton to win the WDC, he needs to gain an average of 5.875 points per race on Alonso, 2.875 points per race on Vettel, 1.875 points per race on Webber, and 1.75 points per race on Räikkönen, while not allowing the others behind to catch (see their individual scenarios).

Etc etc etc.

Alonso has the largest pool of drivers to lose points to, which makes it harder to consistently lose to the same guy.  Hamilton has the most guys to gain points on, which makes his title hopes really hard.  How hard?  Hamilton's averaged 13 points per race in the nine races he has scored points in.  If he scores an average of 13 in the remaining 8, he will end the year with 221 points.  Alonso would only need 7.125 points per race to match that; basically, P6s and P7s.  So not only would Hamilton need to not retire, he also needs to score more points when he does score.  And that's just to beat Alonso; he has to beat 23 drivers who are still in title contention, four of whom are ahead of him.

So is it over for him?  No not at all this math is a total load of garbage.

By the way, this is the fourth consecutive year that Lewis Hamilton has retired from the season's twelfth race.  Thrice at Spa, once at the Hungaroring.

Alright, so what happens if they finish 1-5 at Monza, just inverted (Hamilton P1, Räikkönen P2...)?

Alonso 174
Vettel 152
Räikkönen 150
Webber 148
Hamilton 142

If they finished like that every race for the rest of the year?

Hamilton 317
Räikkönen 275
Webber 252
Vettel 236
Alonso 214

Point being?  It's possible to entirely invert this top five right now by year's end.

But that's stupid, right?  That won't happen.  So what if just Alonso finishes P5 every race, but the other four have a "normal" day, defined as their average points scored in a race where they scored points?

Vettel 252
Webber 228
Räikkönen 226 (rounded from 226.27...)
Hamilton 221
Alonso 214

If Alonso has a normal day?  He takes it at 283 (rounded from 283.27...), but have Alonso's normal days been very normal?  I don't think so.  Vettel, Webber, and Räikkönen have the most normal "normal days."  Hamilton has three P8s that seem to be below the McLaren's current form.  Alonso has a lot of wins that don't seem to really be as achievable without more developments.

Conclusion: Alonso most likely cannot "fifth-place" his way to a championship without his pals retiring, so if Ferrari don't improve to a real podium finishing car, it's going to be tough.

Other conclusion: Vettel is going to be the toughest to beat if he can finish every single race.  Retirements will change things, but when he finishes in the points, he really maximizes the kill.

It's getting good.  I like this a lot.

[Massa]

Well hell that was a huge waste of space to say the obvious.

[BradSpeedMan]

Massa, on 02 September 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

Well hell that was a huge waste of space to say the obvious.

I beg to differ, actually quite interesting reading dem sums and calculations...

[BradSpeedMan]

On Kimi's move...it was actually very clever, just reading this from the JA site...

Kimi overtook Schumacher where he did because that was after the DRS measurement point, meaning that Schumacher could not use DRS to get the position back again...

[Rainmaster]

I liked the sums too. Here's one: over the last 5 races Alonso and Raikkonen have been the highest scoring drivers (78 and 76 points respectively). That just shows that Kimi really is a serious contender, especially once he gets DRS+, and that Alonso has been damn consistent to be the highest scorer despite today's misfortune.

Yeah Brad I think Kimi really did think that one through, let's face it he had no chance of a slipstream on that Mercedes.

[Quiet One]

Rainmaster, on 02 September 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Well even with your quotes Andres, excuse me if I relate the fact Alonso got hit by a driver who recently came from lower formula, and then minutes later when interviewed about the incident started talking about driving standards of lower series... I think we can understand that yes he is talking generally, and also reasonably infer that his general comments on driving standards definitely include Grosjean. It's just a classier way of saying the same thing: Grosjean's move was out of order. He did make the "7 accidents in 12 starts" comment and he did bring up driving standards and the FIA, in a different interview. So yeah, he did put the spotlight on Grosjean's driving, but in a classy way without calling him an idiot or anything like that. Not criticising Alonso here, I think the way he handled it is Raikkonen-esque. And I'm not saying he supports the ban either, but he seems to support the idea that something needed to be done.

The only precedent it sets is: don't drive into other cars at the starts. Which already existed! The fact it's hard to judge incidents at the start is inconsequential here; this was a clear cut misjudgment if we ever saw one.

But I am not denying any of that! (except the 7 races stuff, but that is because it wasn't quoted there)

[Peeweev]

RE Pens for all but only after we (the stewards) have a cup of tea! And maybe a bit on the race itself.

First of all I must agree with several others who have questions what the stewards were doing? Some of the pens I understand not making till after the race (such as the first corner which i will come to in a min) but some of them were so clear! Stewards are there to inforce rules during a race not after! there were some incidents that there was NO question if there was a pen, hekki hitting a HRT IS an unsafe relase!

Moving on to the first corner crash clearly it was Grosjean's fault, noone disputes that it appears to be the ban that is being debated. From what i have read it appears that the result of a big crash and the potential (or almost) very serious/deadly result. If that is just hamilton and Grosjean that are involved you can almost garentee that its a 5 place pen. I agree that he has been involved in quite a few incidents but then last year so were massa and hamilton should they have been banned? No most were honest mistakes as this was. So why did this crash deserve a 1 race ban? Dangerous yes, more so than any other? not so sure. Last year in Monza i remember someone (mayb HRT) on the grass heading strainght into the pack in first corner! or what about Maldonado ramming people as if he is on fair ground ride bouncing of other cars?!

I could go on about Maldonado and i will admit im a mclaren and Hamilton fan so have a bit against him but 1 year ago maldonado RAMMED hammi after hammi overtook him (slightly agressivly) in quali. that went unpunished too! second he clearly drove into perez, pen there but nothing mega! then he carelessly/possibly on purpose knocks hammi out of the European grand prix and he gets another slap on the wrist.

In order to stop me ranting too much about maldonado i will conclude that Grosjean deserved a penalty, no doubt, but if an accidental collision deserves a 1 race ban then using your car as a weapon and hitting others HAS to get AT LEAST the same. What we as fans need and want is fair and consistant stewarding. (wont even mention the fact that hammi gets bigger pens for little things then maldonado seems to get for dangerous driving)


The race for the whole was good some excellent racing and a great performance from button with some other guys doing well too. was shocked by Hekki, of whom im a big fan, had a terrible day but then everyone does sometimes.

[Peeweev]

Rainmaster, on 02 September 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I liked the sums too. Here's one: over the last 5 races Alonso and Raikkonen have been the highest scoring drivers (78 and 76 points respectively). That just shows that Kimi really is a serious contender, especially once he gets DRS+, and that Alonso has been damn consistent to be the highest scorer despite today's misfortune.

Kimi needs to win a race! if he doesnt i dont know if he will truely believe he can win the championship, nor do i believe he can win it without a win.

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 02 September 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

But I am not denying any of that! (except the 7 races stuff, but that is because it wasn't quoted there)

Good!

As for steward decisions taking so long/being investigated after the race: it appears that they're massively understaffed. I may be mistaken but aren't there only four of them? To monitor so many cars in the present and deal with past issues, I can understand why they investigate after the race. More stewards, less penalties after the original classification, please!

Peeweev, on 02 September 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Kimi needs to win a race! if he doesnt i dont know if he will truely believe he can win the championship, nor do i believe he can win it without a win.

Agreed.

[BradSpeedMan]

Peeweev, on 02 September 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

In order to stop me ranting too much about maldonado i will conclude that Grosjean deserved a penalty, no doubt, but if an accidental collision deserves a 1 race ban then using your car as a weapon and hitting others HAS to get AT LEAST the same. What we as fans need and want is fair and consistant stewarding. (wont even mention the fact that hammi gets bigger pens for little things then maldonado seems to get for dangerous driving)

true, when Maldo is ahead of my fav driver it really stresses me. I was abit relieved when he received that ban, but then that could only spell disaster for Alonso and co. The number of places Kimi has lost at the start due to that idiot's stupid driving is numorous, and in my mind he should have received a 1 race ban for Monaco alone!

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 02 September 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Quiet One]

Peeweev, on 02 September 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

RE Pens for all but only after we (the stewards) have a cup of tea! And maybe a bit on the race itself.

First of all I must agree with several others who have questions what the stewards were doing? Some of the pens I understand not making till after the race (such as the first corner which i will come to in a min) but some of them were so clear! Stewards are there to inforce rules during a race not after! there were some incidents that there was NO question if there was a pen, hekki hitting a HRT IS an unsafe relase!

Moving on to the first corner crash clearly it was Grosjean's fault, noone disputes that it appears to be the ban that is being debated. From what i have read it appears that the result of a big crash and the potential (or almost) very serious/deadly result. If that is just hamilton and Grosjean that are involved you can almost garentee that its a 5 place pen. I agree that he has been involved in quite a few incidents but then last year so were massa and hamilton should they have been banned? No most were honest mistakes as this was. So why did this crash deserve a 1 race ban? Dangerous yes, more so than any other? not so sure. Last year in Monza i remember someone (mayb HRT) on the grass heading strainght into the pack in first corner! or what about Maldonado ramming people as if he is on fair ground ride bouncing of other cars?!

I could go on about Maldonado and i will admit im a mclaren and Hamilton fan so have a bit against him but 1 year ago maldonado RAMMED hammi after hammi overtook him (slightly agressivly) in quali. that went unpunished too! second he clearly drove into perez, pen there but nothing mega! then he carelessly/possibly on purpose knocks hammi out of the European grand prix and he gets another slap on the wrist.

In order to stop me ranting too much about maldonado i will conclude that Grosjean deserved a penalty, no doubt, but if an accidental collision deserves a 1 race ban then using your car as a weapon and hitting others HAS to get AT LEAST the same. What we as fans need and want is fair and consistant stewarding. (wont even mention the fact that hammi gets bigger pens for little things then maldonado seems to get for dangerous driving)


The race for the whole was good some excellent racing and a great performance from button with some other guys doing well too. was shocked by Hekki, of whom im a big fan, had a terrible day but then everyone does sometimes.

I think you are referring to the bowling ball number Liuzzi did last year

I do agree with what you say. This is what I see:

- RG squeezes a competitor (happens all the time) Notice that I use the word "squeeze" and not "swerve". The move was not violent nor overtly aggressive.
- The two cars make contact (happens often)
- Cars go flying around and first corenr carnage ensues (happens sometimes, moe often at Spa than in some other venues, actually)
- The carnage this time is particularly dangerous and one driver is slightly injured (this does not happens often at all anymore, thanks George)

Then we have the explanation of the penalty: something like "severe breach of the regulations which could have caused severe injuries and blah blah"

2 points there: some fact invoked (the severe breach of the regulations part) and some possible consequences of such facts.

1) Facts: "severe breach"? Really? Squeezing another car is a severe breach then that should be punished harshly everytime. Yet not only that is rarely punished, there's an unwritten rule that says stewards don't even bother with investigating these first corner incidents anymore, of which 90% (the number comes right out from my Argentinian behind) are caused by some guy squeezing another car or worse. So the factical part is at least questionable.

2) The second part is already weakened because the "if" condition is weakly supported, but it goes further: it could have ended in severe injuries or death...errr...that's true for EVERY dangerous move in F1. Just yesterday I pointed at Hamilton avoiding Perez at the pit exit and almost collecting a marshall...what about that? A race ban for Lewis? For Perez? What about Alonso squeezing vettel at Monza last year? What about Vettel squeezing everybody and with less skill than Nando? What about Schumi, or Hamilton? And, of course, what about Maldonado?

I do think that Grosjean should have been somehow brought to attention at least for being a repeat offender. And also for being a liar "I did not watch the replay so I don't know what happened" Really? Because all the world saw you watching it on the pitwall!) He did not want to take responsiblity and he was at least negligent so yes, some sort of call for attention either by the FIA or his fellow drivers was in order. I just think that the ban distorts too much the scale of penalties and the message seems to be "you can be as stupid as you want but do not take out the main protagonists because that makes us lose TV rating".

On the matter of penalizations, I also agree, some of them should have been almost automatic (unsafe release from pits are very simple to see and to penalize as the jump start was). Others like Schumi's move I understand that take more time.

[Massa]

Well I'm glad you guys liked it the first time because now I'm going to do it to death.

I don't really care who wins the title but I'd sort of like it to be Räikkönen, because he's been so heavily discounted this year on misinformation about Grosjean outperforming him (uh, where's Romain in the points again?) and because I'd laugh really hard at the FIA and FOM's collective scramble to rewrite the points system if a guy won the WDC on zero wins.

Can he do it without a win?  Not likely, because chances are, someone else in the five will win every race here on out, so his best case scenario is still losing 7 points to one of his rivals.

If Räikkönen finishes P2 in EVERY race for the rest of the year, an unlikely scenario, he ends at 275.  Recall a "normal" end to the season for Alonso gets him 283, and that's theoretically achievable without any wins at all in the last eight (in reality, he can only score even points, so it'd be closest to 15 per race, or third, making it 284).

To get to 275, Vettel would only need one win and an average of a little better than the third place points, Alonso's norm and barely more than Vettel's.  Two wins?  A little below third place points.

Now, if you take a straight average of Alonso's points per race, including today's retirement, he'd end at 273.  So, if Alonso repeats his first 12 average results over the last 8, Räikkönen would just edge him out by finishing second every single race.  He'd need 18 points per race to beat Alonso in Alonso's form thus far, even with that retirement today.  Which is likely impossible for anyone to do, and is ignoring where anyone else would fall into the picture, or the horrifying (from their perspective) thought of Alonso doing even better.  Just shows you how damn good Alonso's been at scoring.

So does Räikkönen need to win a race?

Hell yeah he does, but not as much as he needs Alonso to not be as good as he has been and I guess that goes for anyone.  His best case, of course, is both, and a really opportunistic one as far as the W goes.

Do I need a hobby?

Probably.  I love numbers so much I once used tenth grade single-variable calculus to prove Nelson Piquet, Jr. was the best driver in NASCAR.

Have a good night/afternoon/morning.  So glad we don't have to wait for the next one.

[Rainmaster]

Quiet One, on 02 September 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

I think you are referring to the bowling ball number Liuzzi did last year

I do agree with what you say. This is what I see:

- RG squeezes a competitor (happens all the time) Notice that I use the word "squeeze" and not "swerve". The move was not violent nor overtly aggressive.
- The two cars make contact (happens often)
- Cars go flying around and first corenr carnage ensues (happens sometimes, moe often at Spa than in some other venues, actually)
- The carnage this time is particularly dangerous and one driver is slightly injured (this does not happens often at all anymore, thanks George)

Then we have the explanation of the penalty: something like "severe breach of the regulations which could have caused severe injuries and blah blah"

2 points there: some fact invoked (the severe breach of the regulations part) and some possible consequences of such facts.

1) Facts: "severe breach"? Really? Squeezing another car is a severe breach then that should be punished harshly everytime. Yet not only that is rarely punished, there's an unwritten rule that says stewards don't even bother with investigating these first corner incidents anymore, of which 90% (the number comes right out from my Argentinian behind) are caused by some guy squeezing another car or worse. So the factical part is at least questionable.

2) The second part is already weakened because the "if" condition is weakly supported, but it goes further: it could have ended in severe injuries or death...errr...that's true for EVERY dangerous move in F1. Just yesterday I pointed at Hamilton avoiding Perez at the pit exit and almost collecting a marshall...what about that? A race ban for Lewis? For Perez? What about Alonso squeezing vettel at Monza last year? What about Vettel squeezing everybody and with less skill than Nando? What about Schumi, or Hamilton? And, of course, what about Maldonado?

I do think that Grosjean should have been somehow brought to attention at least for being a repeat offender. And also for being a liar "I did not watch the replay so I don't know what happened" Really? Because all the world saw you watching it on the pitwall!) He did not want to take responsiblity and he was at least negligent so yes, some sort of call for attention either by the FIA or his fellow drivers was in order. I just think that the ban distorts too much the scale of penalties and the message seems to be "you can be as stupid as you want but do not take out the main protagonists because that makes us lose TV rating".

On the matter of penalizations, I also agree, some of them should have been almost automatic (unsafe release from pits are very simple to see and to penalize as the jump start was). Others like Schumi's move I understand that take more time.

I'd say it could easily be described as a swerve, actually. A squeeze is to me more where a driver is alongside for a long time (which can be a matter of seconds, but speaking relatively) and gradually reduces another driver's room (see: Schumi v Barrichello Hungary or Alonso v Vettel Monza - which were both moves that were on the limit). Grosjean moved over extremely harshly and quickly, and was not alongside Ham for very long at all (about a second, I think) before he completely moved over on him. When a driver squeezes you you have a choice to back out of it, when a driver swerves at you you don't; which is why nobody faults Ham in this incident. I know the word "swerve" usually carries an aggressive connotation (like when Rosberg did it earlier this year on Alonso), and I know Grosjean was simply reckless in this case, not aggressive, but I still think it's a more accurate description with that point conceded.

Semantics aside, and FIA "reasoning" aside (they have always been so inconsistent in their punishments and their justifications don't always make sense, and I know they don't mention the "repeat offender" part which clearly had an influence) the penalty doesn't feel wrong to me. Reasoning and argument aside, for example, the Hamilton punishment after qualifying in Spain left a much bitter sporting taste in the mouth than this, imho. It doesn't feel to me like Grosjean is being victimised or treated unfairly, even if a ton of other similar incidents never got a similar response and even if Maldonado deserves something more by now and etc etc, just because of his previous form with these incidents. I can understand why some would consider it harsh though. I still think the best test of whether this is a harsh penalty will be Lotus team's reaction to it and Grosjean's, and so far their lack of comment gives me the impression they accept "this has been a long time coming and might do a world of good".