272 replies to this topic

[BradSpeedMan]

 Jean-Pierre, on 27 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Since it usualy takes half a season for a good driver to get use to a new car, Hamilton will only do really well after the first half of the season next year IMO.

I think if the car is fast he will be fast in no time JP, look how easy it was for Kimi when the car was competitive, it made his 2 year comeback impressive. So it depends on the car really...

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 27 November 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Jean-Pierre]

BradSpeedMan, on 27 November 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

I think if the car is fast he will be fast in no time JP, look how easy it was for Kimi when the car was competitive, it made his 2 year comeback impressive. So it depends on the car really...

You might b right, but if I remember correctly it is only since mid season that KR started to clearly dominate Grosjean. Shumacher took half a year before he started to show something. Remember Villeneuve at BMW, he started to regularly beat Nick Heidfeld only from mid season.

[freaky2]

Well, Kimi's form has varied quite a bit depending on the car's adaptation to the circuit, Grosjean's level of stupidity in a given weekend, team strategy and, of course his general improvement as time goes by. It's quite hard to say which factors have influenced him most (especially if you want to compare with his teammate). I think Lotus's strategy sucked in the first races (because I clearly remember stages of mild hate XD) and also Grosjean qualified better than Kimi quite often. But qualifying doesn't make a race and Kimi's races have been impressive from early on. The thing is that his qualifying got better towards the end (point for you) and Hamilton had his continuous strokes of bad luck which elevated Kimi to third in the championship and he never came down.

What I mean is that you can apply a similar judgement to Hammy's year (and also factor in Pirelli, Nico, his boss, his girlfriend and whatever you want). I'm sure that Hammy can impress from early on, even if he can't challenge for the big points.

[BradSpeedMan]

freaky2, on 30 November 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

Well, Kimi's form has varied quite a bit depending on the car's adaptation to the circuit, Grosjean's level of stupidity in a given weekend, team strategy and, of course his general improvement as time goes by. It's quite hard to say which factors have influenced him most (especially if you want to compare with his teammate). I think Lotus's strategy sucked in the first races (because I clearly remember stages of mild hate XD) and also Grosjean qualified better than Kimi quite often. But qualifying doesn't make a race and Kimi's races have been impressive from early on. The thing is that his qualifying got better towards the end (point for you) and Hamilton had his continuous strokes of bad luck which elevated Kimi to third in the championship and he never came down.

What I mean is that you can apply a similar judgement to Hammy's year (and also factor in Pirelli, Nico, his boss, his girlfriend and whatever you want). I'm sure that Hammy can impress from early on, even if he can't challenge for the big points.

I agree with every word, lovely post

[Jean-Pierre]

Well,

I'll put my money on this: Nico will beat him in the majority of the quali and races during the first half of the season, but will be beaten by him in the majority of the second half races.

Any vinyl LP collector out there? I'm willin to bet a vinyl of your choice (provided I have it in my collection and you do in yours) on this.

[dribbler]

Jean-Pierre, on 30 November 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Well,

I'll put my money on this: Nico will beat him in the majority of the quali and races during the first half of the season, but will be beaten by him in the majority of the second half races.

Any vinyl LP collector out there? I'm willin to bet a vinyl of your choice (provided I have it in my collection and you do in yours) on this.

My unmarked and much prized 'The Essential Jean-Michele Jarre' says Lewis will beat Nico from the start.

My Kajagoogoo collection says Vettel won't win another title.

[AleHop]

 dribbler, on 02 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

My unmarked and much prized 'The Essential Jean-Michele Jarre' says Lewis will beat Nico from the start.

My Kajagoogoo collection says Vettel won't win another title.

Any good news about Alonso?

Hamilton will clearly beat Rosberg in the Qly and a bit less comfortably in the race.

[dribbler]

 AleHop, on 03 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

Any good news about Alonso?

I think so; I'll give Jean Pierre my Julio Iglesias version of 'Begin the Beguine' when Alonso beats Massa next year.

I have to get rid of it somehow.

Edited by dribbler, 03 December 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer]

 dribbler, on 03 December 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

I think so; I'll give Jean Pierre my Julio Iglesias version of 'Begin the Beguine' when Alonso beats Massa next year.

I have to get rid of it somehow.

We all know you have ripped it to an MP3 first

I always thought you were more the sort to have a copy of Terry Wogan singing "Floral Dance"... Well, that or "up, up and away in my ba-yoot-ful ballll-ooon..."



Edit: p.s. Before going any further it is with great shame I just discovered I had an MP3 of The Nolans singing: "I'm in the mood for dancing" on my computer. In my defence, it was on a compilation album I had ripped <cough> so let's call it quits, eh?

Edited by Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, 04 December 2012 - 06:46 AM.

[Jean-Pierre]

 dribbler, on 02 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

My unmarked and much prized 'The Essential Jean-Michele Jarre' says Lewis will beat Nico from the start.

My Kajagoogoo collection says Vettel won't win another title.

Wow! this is pretty definitive talk. "From the start" you mean he will beat him every race and quali from the start?

I like Jean_Michel Jarre and will gladly take your LP.

[Jean-Pierre]

 dribbler, on 03 December 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

I think so; I'll give Jean Pierre my Julio Iglesias version of 'Begin the Beguine' when Alonso beats Massa next year.

I have to get rid of it somehow.

[dribbler]

 Jean&#045;Pierre, on 11 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

Wow! this is pretty definitive talk. "From the start" you mean he will beat him every race and quali from the start?

I like Jean_Michel Jarre and will gladly take your LP.

No, not every qualifying session and race. But the majority (to counter your original statement) and from the start, yes.

[jemstride]

I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread cos i can't be arsed - but if anyone's made any comparisons to Schuey moving to Ferrari in '96 (I think even Lewis himself did), it needs to be mentioned that the Ferrari success was not just down to that driver move - it was the recruitment of the Byrne/Brawn/Todt/Schu dream team. Lewis needs a dream team of his own if he thinks he's going to turn Merc's fortunes around

[Massa]

 jemstride, on 27 December 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread cos i can't be arsed - but if anyone's made any comparisons to Schuey moving to Ferrari in '96 (I think even Lewis himself did), it needs to be mentioned that the Ferrari success was not just down to that driver move - it was the recruitment of the Byrne/Brawn/Todt/Schu dream team. Lewis needs a dream team of his own if he thinks he's going to turn Merc's fortunes around

Welcome back, and fully agreed.  If Hamilton is an asset that can help attract more personnel with whom to build a team, this will work in the long run.  There's no doubt that Mercedes would be more attractive, in theory, with a top driver on-board.  However, where Schumacher attracted others to work with him, Hamilton may not.  He'll need to prove that he's not hard to work with (and he may not be, but perception is reality.  McLaren obviously liked him enough to try to keep him.  Still, there always seemed to be something weird there with those relationships) if he wants to be surrounded by the best.

I don't think a great team built around Schumacher by chance.  2013 will be an important year for Hamilton to prove that he deserves a great team around him, and is worth any trouble that may or may not exist.  Mercedes have the first piece, and now they have to try to use that.  The rich get richer, assuming they're actually rich, so what Hamilton's worth will be to other personnel in the F1 garage is really up to him in this coming year.

All we'll get to really know for sure is his pace, and I think he'll be impressive, especially because most of us have such low expectations of what Mercedes can do.  Internally?  We'll never know, but the less smoke in the media, the better for that group.

[JHS18]

As I've said before, I think Hamilton lacks the maturity that is needed to lead a team forwards. Michael was able to lead Ferrari out on their slump because he did. I just can't see how Hamilton has that. He has improved a lot since 2007 - but you see the occasional incident like when he tweeted that confidental set-up data at Spa...and it personally makes me wonder how long he's prepared to wait before frustration starts to creep in again. Mentally, when things are not going well for him, he doesn't appear to be one of the stronger drivers on the grid.

[Quiet One]

I agree to some extent with James here. Lewis has shown exceptional driving skills, but as a far as leadership goes he has shown not a single skill. Being a number one driver in a team is not the same as being an actual "leader". He was not followed at McLaren. He was pampered, at  best.

I do admire the fact that he took this challenge and I think it was more than necesary for him. But that does not mean I "know" that he has the required skills for the job. At the same time, how would we (and he) know unless he tries?

[BradSpeedMan]

 Quiet One, on 28 December 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Lewis has shown exceptional driving skills, but as a far as leadership goes he has shown not a single skill.

and who exactly has shown these leadership skills, I hope you are not referring to your dear friend Alonso. Going out drinking and playing poker with the ferrari mechanics and engineers does'nt mean you have these leadership skills Andres!!!! Come to think of it, thats maybe the reason why they're struggling so much, they are living in disillusionment!!!!

[Quiet One]

 BradSpeedMan, on 30 December 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

and who exactly has shown these leadership skills, I hope you are not referring to your dear friend Alonso. Going out drinking and playing poker with the ferrari mechanics and engineers does'nt mean you have these leadership skills Andres!!!! Come to think of it, thats maybe the reason why they're struggling so much, they are living in disillusionment!!!!

Slow down you...Hamiltonizer...errr...Kimiphiliac...ermm...Vettelmonger? I am out of touch with all this, I guess

Yes, Nando is one. Schumi is another. To a lesser extent, I think vettel could have it, although I am not sure he has them. Kubica, too, come to think of it. Webber has many of the requisites ticked, but not all of them, sadly.

Anyways, you are making a rather common mistake, my friend, and it is mixing up the fact that a guy has some trait to the possibility of the guy with such trait to make any kind of meaningful (as perceiver by you) effect.

I am an above average motivational speaker/coach, according to the general consensus in my company. Many told me so through the years, which I never believed as I don't work, neither studied that stuff, but a few weeks ago I could look at my file and it is something remarked by my superiors in succesive evaluations. Yet, my company stays as one of the most demotivational places on Earth. If I was the best motivational guy on Earth it will still be so.

Messi is the best player on Earth, btw, (in your face, Alex! ) and arguably one of the top 10 in the whole story of football. Yet the Argentinian team is a study in underperformance no matter which ither 10 players they have put in it. And sometimes the 'other 10' where better guy by guy than any other team, including Spain.

So, a driver leading skils can keep a team im high spirits, or at least pat of it, and rally their efforts behind him (Senna did that, Prost couldn't and felt bitter and robbed all his life for that), he can develop a great relationship with mechanics and team honchos alike and motivate them to a degree. he can give feedback to car development parties that help impove the car better in some areas.

What a driver with leaderships skills can't do:

- He can't fix a defective win tunnel.
- He can't make other teams become incompetent.
- He can't really become the team owner (an illusion that they are usually prone to believe) and, come the end of the day, they are just a very cherished, but still just a primus inter pares among the team's employees.
- Above all, he can't make you, Brad, understand the basics of logic Yeah, because...what in seven bloody hells has Alonso to do in all this? We were talking about Lewis, last time I checked. And none of what you and I wrote proved or disproved anything about Lewis skills.

So, to get back on topic, what are those leadership skills you think Lewis posess, and how did he show them so far? Nope, overtaking many cars and being flung on a stage by a wire are not leadership skills, in my personal opinion

[BradSpeedMan]

I'm saying that how can we possibly assume he does'nt have these skills by only watching him on tv in the garage and driving... You've mentioned a few drivers, how do we rate them having these abilities when they are already in successful teams. Schumie had to bring a whole bunch of "circle of fear" individuals abroad Ferrari b4 to be successful.... Who created this "fear" amongts the Ferrari elite that pushed them forward, it could have been Todt

Alonso was brought on the perception of being a great leader right, that was Dom's reason (together with Santander money) for pushing Kimi aside. The guy apparently can talk. What has this brought Ferrari?... 0 championships in 3 years. Hamilton might come across as arrogant but could be really likeable when you really get to know him....

Fact is we will never really know unless someone goes in there and study the environment around Hamilton, how he influences and how he operates within the team

[BradSpeedMan]

 Quiet One, on 30 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I am an above average motivational speaker/coach, according to the general consensus in my company. Many told me so through the years, which I never believed as I don't work, neither studied that stuff, but a few weeks ago I could look at my file and it is something remarked by my superiors in succesive evaluations. Yet, my company stays as one of the most demotivational places on Earth. If I was the best motivational guy on Earth it will still be so.

I do believe that they are right and it's true my friend, I think it's time to believe that yourself too Also, you don't really know what impact that can make, you point to the negative, in fact you could be a trigger, a reason for ppl to believe that things CAN change, even in the most demotivational place on earth. It starts with a small step right....

[Quiet One]

 BradSpeedMan, on 30 December 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'm saying that how can we possibly assume he does'nt have these skills by only watching him on tv in the garage and driving... You've mentioned a few drivers, how do we rate them having these abilities when they are already in successful teams. Schumie had to bring a whole bunch of "circle of fear" individuals abroad Ferrari b4 to be successful.... Who created this "fear" amongts the Ferrari elite that pushed them forward, it could have been Todt

Alonso was brought on the perception of being a great leader right, that was Dom's reason (together with Santander money) for pushing Kimi aside. The guy apparently can talk. What has this brought Ferrari?... 0 championships in 3 years. Hamilton might come across as arrogant but could be really likeable when you really get to know him....

Fact is we will never really know unless someone goes in there and study the environment around Hamilton, how he influences and how he operates within the team

But that was precisely my point in my first post! I said that he hasn't shown any skills so far, but that does not mean he does not have them! I was not attacking Lewis, as most people is not actually attacking Vettel when they say that he hasn't proved this or that yet.

As far as I know, Lewis could be the best driver/leader in the whole F1 history, but so far he didn't show it either because at McLaren there was no chance or because he hasn't matured enough. And maybe Merc is exactly the place he needs to develop.

Drivers evolve through time. Alonso nowadays is very different from his 2007 version. He was helped in his evolution by his "dark years" after the MLaren debacle. Maybe Lewis needs some of that. We'll see. That was all I was saying, in fact.

[Quiet One]

 BradSpeedMan, on 30 December 2012 - 08:49 PM, said:

I do believe that they are right and it's true my friend, I think it's time to believe that yourself too Also, you don't really know what impact that can make, you point to the negative, in fact you could be a trigger, a reason for ppl to believe that things CAN change, even in the most demotivational place on earth. It starts with a small step right....

You are too kind but it is hard to believe you are something yourself when you never even paid attention to that characteristic or strove to have it. I'd rather be considered a sex bomb. But somehow that does not happen

[Rainmaster]

If leadership means to win and lose as a team, and to rally people around you, then you need to have a few things, imo. The first things are to do with the skill of the driver. You have to be the stronger driver in the team (which is why Webber could never be a leader, for example), and for the team to have absolute confidence in your skills (which Alonso has at Ferrari more than any other driver, rightly or wrongly). Hammy and Vettel will both be strong in this skills and confidence of the team area, great drivers that they are. Other drivers, even top drivers, will fall to some extent at this hurdle, good examples being Button and Kimi. Yes, they're good and both had good seasons and the team will like them, but they will not have the respect of the team that Alonso has, and that Vettel and Hammy could/may have. If you disagree just look at the comments during the season from Mclaren or Lotus team members, re Button's run of disaster races where he struggled with setup, or Kimi's missed win(s) and qualifying issues.

Not bashing, just pointing out you cannot be a leader in that sense if your own performances leave something to be desired, even if the something isn't that much, like in both JB and KR's cases. It also doesn't mean that they aren't respected in the team or well liked. We are talking in subtle shades of grey here.

The second part of leadership is generally easier. What I will call the "prickometer" - how much of a prick you are. To be thankful to your mechanics, engineers, to not criticise the team, etc. This was where Schumi was super strong. Alonso is good here, too (although certainly is capable of spitting the dummy). This is the part where Button excels, for being a nice guy. Kimi? Not so much a prick as completely uninterested in even entering into the contest. He isn't interested in being a leader, he only wants to drive (and for that, we love him), but it means he'll always struggle to rally the team and be a long term No 1 if the driver in the other car drives quickly (which is why I expect him to have more trouble next year against Grosjean). Prost had his problems. This is also where Hammy seems to struggle. Not that Ham's a prick, you don't have to be a prick to do prickish things (like Brad says, I'm sure he's a nice guy and has some good relationships in the team). But tweeting telemetry data is not something that helps the overall relationship to the team. Even something like not being able to relate to your driver won't help the relationship. Of them all, Hammy lives the most celebrity lifestyle so that might make things difficult. Vettel in particular seems incredibly down to earth, Alonso too for the most part.

All of which sort of explains why Mclaren don't seem to support one driver over the other. Button is slightly better liked and Hamilton is slightly more respected as a driver. The two cancel each other out and the team doesn't rally around either of them, because rallying behind Button would be wrong when you have Hamilton there, and rallying behind Hamilton is apparently difficult because Button has such a good relationship with the team. Alonso is Ferrari's saviour not only because they like him as much as they like Massa, but because he's so much more respected as a driver too (it's also easier to be viewed as a saviour in a team that desperately needs one and seems more emotional than other teams).

Final thing to say is that it's easier to demonstrate leadership in adversity. Vettel hasn't really faced it that much yet, but the evidence is all there that he's a good leader (e.g. before the race start in Abu Dhabi he said to Horner "I'll see you on the podium"). Small things like that add up.

So yep, Alonso is more of a leader than Hammy seems a fairly safe conclusion from what we saw so far. As pointed out, that doesn't actually count for jack Sh#t.

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 30 December 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

But that was precisely my point in my first post! I said that he hasn't shown any skills so far, but that does not mean he does not have them! I was not attacking Lewis, as most people is not actually attacking Vettel when they say that he hasn't proved this or that yet.

As far as I know, Lewis could be the best driver/leader in the whole F1 history, but so far he didn't show it either because at McLaren there was no chance or because he hasn't matured enough. And maybe Merc is exactly the place he needs to develop.

Drivers evolve through time. Alonso nowadays is very different from his 2007 version. He was helped in his evolution by his "dark years" after the MLaren debacle. Maybe Lewis needs some of that. We'll see. That was all I was saying, in fact.

How dare you say Lewis cannot be a leader, what gives you the right to make such a judgement???

I agree, Lewis has not shown any leadership so far, I think, but that doesn't mean he can't do it.  However, I think the perceived success/achievements of a driver who we think has good leadership qualities, relies on a combination of factors.  For example, Alonso seems to have good leadership qualities, but this is not translating into a winning team at the moment.  Schumi, who I think possibly has even better leadership qualities, was able to translate this into a winning team, probably because of other people around him.

As has been touched on, though, I think the most important thing a 'leadership type' driver can bring to the team is consistently wringing the most out of a car.  That will motivate the team more than anything else.  Obviously, if you can then motivate the team further beyond what you can do with the car, then it's a bonus.  And this is the bit I am not sure Lewis can do at the moment, until we see him try, that is.

Edited by pabloh20, 03 January 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[pabloh20]

Quiet One, on 30 December 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

You are too kind but it is hard to believe you are something yourself when you never even paid attention to that characteristic or strove to have it. I'd rather be considered a sex bomb. But somehow that does not happen

If it helps, I think you are a sex bomb.

[AleHop]

Quiet One, on 30 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

Messi is the best player on Earth, btw, (in your face, Alex! ) and arguably one of the top 10 in the whole story of football.

I agree with you about Messi being the best football player. Why you believe I think otherwise? Together with other two Argentinians, Di Stefano and Maradona, he's among the best football players ever.

About a driver leading a team, I think the mos important quality is being a great driver under (almost) all circumstances. I agree with George on that.

I don't believe on drivers working as engineers at night but some drivers are probably more respected by engineers than others. That's another very important quality for an F1 driver if he wants to lead his team.

PR talking, friendly attitude, etc. may help if you have the other two qualities but don't forget even Schumacher had his bursts at Ferrari sometimes when the car/team wasn't performing as expected.

I think Hamilton has all those qualities, he just have to put them all together with the right group of people around. A driver cannot outperform a car, can he make engineers, mechanics, etc. outperform their own skills?

Leading a team correctly (as a driver) doesn't mean you'll have the best car, having the best car doesn't mean you're leading yor team correctly.

[Kati]

Best player atm, yea, top 10 overall, not that far yet.

[Jean-Pierre]

 dribbler, on 12 December 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

No, not every qualifying session and race. But the majority (to counter your original statement) and from the start, yes.

I'm willing to put my Kraftwerk album, Radio Activity, at risk against your JMJ album.

[Mikesr1]

Apparently he is the fastest on the grid but he has got some competition this year

https://www.youtube....?v=upNOREDSHRU#

Also just heard he is going to commentate or something for the BBC

[Jean-Pierre]

"No, not every qualifying session and race. But the majority (to counter your original statement) and from the start, yes." Dribbler

 Jean-Pierre, on 07 January 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm willing to put my Kraftwerk album, Radio Activity, at risk against your JMJ album.

Dribbler - So how are we going to count this? I suggest one point for each quali and race in which one finishes ahead of the other. So, e.g. if NR has the better qualifying time but finishes behind LH in the race, they each have a point.

Is this agreeable to you?