105 replies to this topic

[AleHop]

Grabthaw the Hammerslayer, on 28 November 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I don't know about you but with all of the above, I'm flagging somewhat

I'm red flagged.

[Rainmaster]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

What do James' links say?  Sorry, I am not being funny, they are blocked on the network I am on

Edit:  Seeing as Grabbie is on I will add that I am not on a jail network, before he even thinks about saying anything remotely reptitive

James' post shows that on lap 3 there is a green flag being waved at the exit of turn 3, on the left. In the Youtube video description it is correctly stated that this is for the previous lap (lap 3) and the Vergne pass happened the following lap. However, it is pointed out in the top comment that "yes it's from the previous lap, but the motivation for the yellow flag sector remains the same (Maldonado at T3)" - therefore implying that on the following lap there would also be the same sequence of lights and flags. Indeed, if you look on the Youtube video again at 11:50 you can just make out the waving of what appears to be...a green flag on the left (it's incredibly hard to see even with the time stamp).

Edited by Rainmaster, 28 November 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

James' post shows that on lap 3 there is a green flag being waved at the exit of turn 3, on the left. In the Youtube video description it is correctly stated that this is for the previous lap (lap 3) and the Vergne pass happened the following lap. However, it is pointed out in the top comment that "yes it's from the previous lap, but the motivation for the yellow flag sector remains the same (Maldonado at T3)" - therefore implying that on the following lap there would also be the same sequence of lights and flags. Indeed, if you look on the Youtube video again at 11:50 you can just make out the waving of what appears to be...a green flag on the left (it's incredibly hard to see even with the time stamp).

You have Sky F1 at home? Could you get that part on 1080p? The footage when Vettel overtakes Vergne only. Is that posible?

P.S.- Maybe a snapshot would be just fine.

Edited by AleHop, 28 November 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

James' post shows that on lap 3 there is a green flag being waved at the exit of turn 3, on the left. In the Youtube video description it is correctly stated that this is for the previous lap (lap 3) and the Vergne pass happened the following lap. However, it is pointed out in the top comment that "yes it's from the previous lap, but the motivation for the yellow flag sector remains the same (Maldonado at T3)" - therefore implying that on the following lap there would also be the same sequence of lights and flags. Indeed, if you look on the Youtube video again at 11:50 you can just make out the waving of what appears to be...a green flag on the left (it's incredibly hard to see even with the time stamp).

Ah right ok.  Will have to remember to have a look when I get home.

Did I see somebody state that on the overtake on Kamui, the yellow flag (after the green flag on turn 14) when Vettel actually gets past him was actually a red/yellow flag again, but it wasn't showing on TV properly?

And bollocking hell, there are too many flags in this discussion

[pabloh20]

AleHop, on 28 November 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

You have Sky F1 at home? Could you get that part on 1080p? The footage when Vettel overtakes Vergne only. Is that posible?

P.S.- Maybe a snapshot would be just fine.

No, absolutely not!!!  The highest resolution you can get is 1080i

It would be interesting to see if they do show this on any of the repeats.  I never watch the repeats, but presumably they are just a an exact copy of the original broadcast, in which case the answer would be no as they didn't show it the first time.

[AleHop]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

No, absolutely not!!!  The highest resolution you can get is 1080i

Is that all you get in jail?

Sorry, not as funny as Grabthar's.

[pabloh20]

AleHop, on 28 November 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Is that all you get in jail?

Sorry, not as funny as Grabthar's.

It was quite funny

[Rainmaster]

I'm too lazy to get a snapshot or find the footage, to be honest. If it's possible to do it, I'm sure somebody who cares about this more than I do will do that. Or hopefully some professional publication will put all of the information together to put it to bed, which hasn't really happened yet except for on the Sauber and HRT incidents.

For me, it's enough to know that on the previous lap there was a green flag in that area for the same incident, and that I am 90% sure I see a green flag on that video in the same place on the lap in question. Also, that Ferrari would not allow such an obvious mistake to go unpunished. All that is pretty much conclusive to me to be able to say that in the case of Red Bull v Internet conspiracy theorists, I find in favour of Red Bull

Oh, by the way, going back to the video, if you change it to 720p it helps to see some green thing being waved out of turn 3 (just before the Johnnie Walker sign). Could be a flag

Edited by Rainmaster, 28 November 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Oh, by the way, going back to the video, if you change it to 720p it helps to see some green thing being waved out of turn 3 (just before the Johnnie Walker sign). Could be a flag

I think I tried that and I only saw 360p and 465p? No 720p. If there's 720p I think that's nearly the best you can get (Pabloh reminded me there's only 1080i on TV which I think is really 720p.

Problem is YouTube video compression is just Sh#t for colors and it compressed the vid after the actual compression during broadcasting and as the Marshall's post is kind of green and the trees in the background are green too the flag might be yellow and look like green with the cam moving. Just in case...

I agree, if Ferrari stay quiet it would be a reason to think it's actually green. Well, I'll check that 720p on YouTube later at the computer.

[JHS18]

An open question to anyone.

If Ferrari did appeal (even though they won't) - don't you think it'd be a tragic way for this amazing year to end? The championship deserves to be settled on the race track, and not the court room. It isn't hard to imagine what could happen - Ferrari could appeal the result, the FIA may take some action, then Red Bull would appeal that decision and then Ferrari would appeal that appeal and before you know it we're in 2013 with no idea of who is definitely the 2012 champion. It would do the sport no good to see it ended like that.

And dare I be so brave to suggest that I doubt Fernando would want to win it that way anyway?

I'd say the exact same thing if it was the other way round.

I think there's a reason why the FIA didn't take action in the race, and why Ferrari haven't said anything. There's nothing to it other than bitter fans trying to play as race stewards.

Whilst we're at it, why don't we re-award the 1990 championship to Prost seeing as Senna deliberately drove into him?

I swear, if I hear the words "Vettel", "illegal overtake" and "yellow flag" in the same sentence again I may just be driven to punch something very hard...

Edited by JHS18, 28 November 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[AleHop]

JHS18, on 28 November 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

I swear, if I hear the words "Vettel", "illegal overtake" and "yellow flag" in the same sentence again I may just be driven to punch something very hard...

I can't write freely if you threat me. Ok, I'll say what I think. The title's Vettel's and it won't change, it should not change but... IF the pass was illegal it would be a big mistake and Ferrari should proceed as if it had happened in Australia, Malaysia or Bahrain. There are 20 races in the championship and Brazil is just one more. FIA should keep the outcome but if there had been a mistake they should investigate, tell what happened and apologize for it.

[Rainmaster]

Well, at this point this is nothing more than a thought experiment but... imagining that Red Bull did have a case to answer. As far as I know, the FIA would have discretion about which penalty to apply.

If they applied a drive through, or a stop and go penalty, that would translate to a time penalty of 20 seconds or 30 seconds respectively (since it's applied after the race), and could not be appealed.

But the FIA could also choose a time penalty of their choice, or just a reprimand (and again, neither would be open to appeal). You could imagine in such a situation the FIA would choose one of these options, so as to avoid controversy and the title would not change hands. It would not even be too unreasonable to give a 10 second penalty, considering the crime alleged here is overtaking (albeit safely) 40 metres before it was legal to do so.

FIA could also exclude the driver from the result, suspend them from the next event or drop them a number of positions on the grid at the next event (and these would be open to appeal).

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

But the FIA could also choose a time penalty of their choice, or just a reprimand...

No, not a reprimand please. I hate reprimands. Anyway, I think it would be his third reprimand of the season, would mean a drive through so no escape there. I read that yesterday.

I think I found what I was looking for and the flag doesn't look yellow. Most probably is green. Definitely they have to wash the flags every now and then.

[pabloh20]

JHS18, on 28 November 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

An open question to anyone.

If Ferrari did appeal (even though they won't) - don't you think it'd be a tragic way for this amazing year to end? The championship deserves to be settled on the race track, and not the court room. It isn't hard to imagine what could happen - Ferrari could appeal the result, the FIA may take some action, then Red Bull would appeal that decision and then Ferrari would appeal that appeal and before you know it we're in 2013 with no idea of who is definitely the 2012 champion. It would do the sport no good to see it ended like that.

And dare I be so brave to suggest that I doubt Fernando would want to win it that way anyway?

I'd say the exact same thing if it was the other way round.

I think there's a reason why the FIA didn't take action in the race, and why Ferrari haven't said anything. There's nothing to it other than bitter fans trying to play as race stewards.

Whilst we're at it, why don't we re-award the 1990 championship to Prost seeing as Senna deliberately drove into him?

I swear, if I hear the words "Vettel", "illegal overtake" and "yellow flag" in the same sentence again I may just be driven to punch something very hard...

Well, it looks like Ferrari are considering an appeal.

[Rainmaster]

Yep, that's a helpful slow-mo. Axis of Oversteer, right? http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/

Now, the BBC Sport website has this story "Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest" (http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638), but without any comments from the FIA, Ferrari or Red Bull. Journalism at its finest

Looks like a classic example of "old media" trying to keep up with "new media", and the result is somewhat embarassing given plenty of people on the interwebs have already pointed out the green flag on lap 4. Oh Beeb, you have disappointed me..

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Yep, that's a helpful slow-mo. Axis of Oversteer, right? http://blog.axisofoversteer.com/

Now, the BBC Sport website has this story "Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest" (http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20531638), but without any comments from the FIA, Ferrari or Red Bull. Journalism at its finest

Looks like a classic example of "old media" trying to keep up with "new media", and the result is somewhat embarassing given plenty of people on the interwebs have already pointed out the green flag on lap 4. Oh Beeb, you have disappointed me..

Have you looked at the onboard footage they have linked on the story?

[Rainmaster]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Have you looked at the onboard footage they have linked on the story?

Yep, same footage as the Youtube clip but with gear info, etc, in the way.

Edit: And like the Youtube clip, shows a flag being waved out of turn 3. Although in the BBC footage the colours are better than Youtube.

Edited by Rainmaster, 28 November 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[AleHop]

I'm a bit lost after reading the BBC report. They say they can see a green flag waving on lap 3 but it isn't clear on the footage if it's still waving on lap 4. So, what lap is showing that gif I just posted before this post? Lap 3 or 4?

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

Yep, same footage as the Youtube clip but with gear info, etc, in the way.

Yep exactly

[Rainmaster]

The .gif you posted is from lap 4. You can see the whole clip here (slow mo included) with Vettel passing the green flag, then passing the STR http://www.youtube.c...&v=Ku979qCzAWA#!

The BBC footage in their report also appears to be from lap 4 but apparently they haven't watched it particularly closely as you can also make out the colour of the flag.

[Rainmaster]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Yep exactly

Now I see what you mean.

[AleHop]

Ok, so the green flag is waving on lap 4. Oh, that's why you were disappointed with them, right? We're ahead the BBC. OMG!

I guess they'll find out eventually.

[Rainmaster]

Yep, they'll catch up eventually. Maybe Red Bull will post some super high definition footage and pictures for us, now that there's serious media attention!

To be honest, though, I think Benson is just trying to create a story here. I mean, the article even points out that the whole case rests on whether there is a green flag being waved at the marshal's post (the existence of which the original Youtube video didn't even know of, which is why there's been a story in the first place). With the importance of the flag being known this time, you would have thought Benson/BBC Sport would have slowed down that part of the footage, not the part where the overtake is made...

Just shows that us internet experts are much better than traditional media at solving these conspiracy theories, which is just as well since most of them originate here too.

Anyway, hopefully soon one of the three main players (Red Bull, Ferrari, the FIA) deals properly with this story, as it's quite damaging for the sport if god knows how many people believe that pass was illegal and the championship invalid.

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Anyway, hopefully soon one of the three main players (Red Bull, Ferrari, the FIA) deals properly with this story, as it's quite damaging for the sport if god knows how many people believe that pass was illegal and the championship invalid.

Yep. I've just read a few guys claiming the flag is blue. Then they'll say they've photoshoped it so it looks green. Whatever...

It seems Ferrari is looking into it but the FIA stay quiet and of course Red Bull won't do/say anything if there's nothing to say after all.

I think it depends on Ferrari having something to support an appeal or it will simply die off in a matter of days.

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 28 November 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

Yep, they'll catch up eventually. Maybe Red Bull will post some super high definition footage and pictures for us, now that there's serious media attention!

To be honest, though, I think Benson is just trying to create a story here. I mean, the article even points out that the whole case rests on whether there is a green flag being waved at the marshal's post (the existence of which the original Youtube video didn't even know of, which is why there's been a story in the first place). With the importance of the flag being known this time, you would have thought Benson/BBC Sport would have slowed down that part of the footage, not the part where the overtake is made...

Just shows that us internet experts are much better than traditional media at solving these conspiracy theories, which is just as well since most of them originate here too.

Anyway, hopefully soon one of the three main players (Red Bull, Ferrari, the FIA) deals properly with this story, as it's quite damaging for the sport if god knows how many people believe that pass was illegal and the championship invalid.

You have to wonder if that last sentence is also one of the purposes of this exercise from ferrari.  Throw enough mud and all that............

Edited by pabloh20, 28 November 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[Massa]

ipaneda, on 28 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

You seem to have forgotten something: Schumacher was in between Vettel and Vergne, so a penalty of 20s results in P8 for Vettel, and the tittle would go to Alonso by one point.

I was assuming that a drive through would have a delta of less than 20 seconds.  The total time spent on pit lane was, what, 23 seconds?  That's with a stop.  A drive-through would take out the 3 second stop, so you have 20 seconds spent on pit road.  But Vergne would be spending some number of seconds on the track driving past pit road, so the penalty would be more like 15 seconds delta or something like that.  So, ahead of Vergne...

...but there was no penalty, and Vettel is a great champion.

I'm not sure what F1's flagging rules are.  I was just stupidly trusting that this guy knew what he was talking about.  Craig's the Kiwi, but I'm the sheep...

[AleHop]

Massa, on 29 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

I'm not sure what F1's flagging rules are.  I was just stupidly trusting that this guy knew what he was talking about.  Craig's the Kiwi, but I'm the sheep...

Eric, this guy knows what he's talking about. The BBC have the story about the yellow flags with pretty much the same video on it. I could not see it from Spain but Pabloh and George said it. As I said F1 experts agree with that guy about green/yellow flags and no better prove than that.

[Rainmaster]

pabloh20, on 28 November 2012 - 11:20 PM, said:

You have to wonder if that last sentence is also one of the purposes of this exercise from ferrari.  Throw enough mud and all that............

Indeed.

Massa, on 29 November 2012 - 12:00 AM, said:

I was assuming that a drive through would have a delta of less than 20 seconds.  The total time spent on pit lane was, what, 23 seconds?  That's with a stop.  A drive-through would take out the 3 second stop, so you have 20 seconds spent on pit road.  But Vergne would be spending some number of seconds on the track driving past pit road, so the penalty would be more like 15 seconds delta or something like that.  So, ahead of Vergne...

...but there was no penalty, and Vettel is a great champion.

I'm not sure what F1's flagging rules are.  I was just stupidly trusting that this guy knew what he was talking about.  Craig's the Kiwi, but I'm the sheep...

True, the cost of a drive through had it been applied in the race would be less than 20 seconds, and anyway Vergne would have let Vettel through anyway. Obviously, that's all academic now as no penalty was given. If a drive through is given after the race it becomes a 20 second time penalty.

Sky now has the story and so does James Allen: http://www.jamesalle...video-evidence/

I'd still be surprised if this story has any real traction to it. It seems now that everybody accepts there's a green flag being waved on lap 4, out of turn 3, but now it is questioned why the (yellow) dashboard lights and the (yellow) light on the right of straight do not match the green flag on the left (at least this is the question James Allen raises in his article, he says "So there appears to be some confusion over signalling; the lights and flag do not synchronise").

First of all, the dashboard lights we can quickly dismiss I think, as they are just a guide to the drivers and obviously any flag being waved will supersede the dashboard lights which may fail/take time to change/not correspond to flags being waved in real time.

As for the yellow light on the right of the straight on lap 4, this is essentially trying to make it a question of authority: which has authority, lights or flags? But I think this question is irrelevant as you can see from the circuit map that the yellow light on the right is in a different position on the straight to the (green) marshal post on the left. The yellow light on the right of the track has its own corresponding marshal point just in front of it. The marshal post on the left (where we see the green flag) is independent of this earlier light/marshal post combo. You can see this very clearly in the circuit map: http://1.bp.blogspot...lo-brazil-1.png

Then the following, as James posted, shows the relevance to Vettel: http://i49.tinypic.com/9rkupl.jpg

Edited by Rainmaster, 29 November 2012 - 12:34 AM.

[Rainmaster]

Yeah, the YouTube guy knew what he was talking about. He just missed the fact there was a green flag being waved, which was quite easy to miss, and that dashboard lights don't have any supremacy, and that the yellow light on the right of the track has its own corresponding marshal post.

Unfortunately, the YouTube guy also seems like an idiot, as I've checked back on that video a few times and it seems he's deleting the top comments which all highlight relevant facts (such as the green flag) and other useful information. He also edited the video description because he was proved wrong on a couple of points. Shame.

Edited by Rainmaster, 29 November 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 29 November 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

Yeah, the YouTube guy knew what he was talking about. He just missed the fact there was a green flag being waved, which was quite easy to miss, and that dashboard lights don't have any supremacy, and that the yellow light on the right of the track has its own corresponding marshal post.

Unfortunately, the YouTube guy also seems like an idiot, as I've checked back on that video a few times and it seems he's deleting the top comments which all highlight relevant facts (such as the green flag) and other useful information. He also edited the video description because he was proved wrong on a couple of points. Shame.

Yep, he cooked it a bit so you get the impression it's a blatant overtake under yellow flags and a blatant FIA incompetence.