105 replies to this topic

[Rainmaster]

Apparently Ferrari can't appeal and the FIA have only until the end of this month to review the race result: http://www.f1fanatic...m=15#post-81156 - Obviously, I don't think it'll come to an appeal because the facts are all there in Red Bull's favour for anybody who looks.

The more I read into this story (and all I am doing is looking on my Twitter feed), the more I question why the major news outlets haven't done any of this research...

Edit: the F1Fanatic site has this covered really well, more from our Keith: http://www.f1fanatic...m=15#post-80878 (also includes an FOM track map which indicates different marshalling sectors).

Edited by Rainmaster, 29 November 2012 - 01:32 AM.

[AleHop]

I knew that there's a deadline for appeal on 30th October but a Spanish FIA member (Verdegay) said Ferrari could appeal themselves as that footage would be considered as "new evidence" if it proved something the stewards hadn't look into. But the green flag disproves an overtake under yellow flags so if they don't have something new we don't know about yet it looks over. That green flag was the only important thing about all this and there should be everywhere on the media tomorrow.

[Massa]

I don't mean to say the guy in the video is wrong, just that I never bothered to check and see if he was...

...so I did.  And I couldn't find it in the Code or in the Formula One Sporting Regulations.  Uhh...

[Massa]

Wasn't looking in the right place.  Appendix H 2.4.5.1( b )

Quote

Overtaking is not permitted between the first yellow flag and the green flag displayed after the incident.

http://argent.fia.co...23_ANNEXE H.pdf

That is all that is said about this.  I feel as though you would have to hit the point the green flag is being displayed based on that wording.  Is this still relevant?  A lot of posts happened between then and now.

[Massa]

Had I read while I researched, I wouldn't have made either of those two posts I just made.  I'm so dumb.

[AleHop]

Massa, on 29 November 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

Had I read while I researched, I wouldn't have made either of those two posts I just made.  I'm so dumb.

As George said the only relevant posts are the video and the first one of James with a gif. I posted a better quality gif a few posts back where you can see a most probably green flag waving on the left.

[Massa]

Right.  We're on the same page now.

It looks to me like the pass was good.

[AleHop]

Massa, on 29 November 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

It looks to me like the pass was good.

Yep. It took you a bit longer but we're all there.

[Massa]

Nothing new there.  I ran the 110m when I raced.  All seven of us in the heat would get across the finish line, but it'd take me a bit longer.

[BradSpeedMan]

Ok, I could'nt log on to TF1 today because of some server issue???

In any case, hope this has'nt been said in this thread, I just don't have to time to follow properly.... some links I want to pst...


"The 31-year-old Alonso, who was world champion in 2005 and 2006, is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA." This guy is such a sour loser... Not only is he influencing his fans with his tantrums and bitterness, but he's also willing to put his team at risk!

It seems he forgot about this...

http://www.autosport...rce=mostpopular

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/63956

[The Shadow]

Let's just Red flag this discussion. Matter at hand appears settled..

[BradSpeedMan]

The Shadow, on 29 November 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Let's just Red flag this discussion. Matter at hand appears settled..

oh really, its that easy??? ..... I feel the need to expose your favourite driver as the power-hungry greedy mongrel that he is, it is not over for me!

[Rainmaster]

I don't know whether I believe Alonso is actually doing that, Bradman. To be honest, I find it hard to believe that from my position of having an internet connection, I would be able to find out more about this than Ferrari would. I know Ferrari sent a letter to the FIA last night asking for 'clarification', but I can only imagine the most likely scenario is that they already had all the relevant information available to them (because I did), and it was simply a political, mud slinging sort of move (as Paul suggested). I don't think that's the kind of thing Alonso is in a position to push through. I could be wrong, though. Of course, it's also possible Ferrari did want clarification and simply didn't have all the facts, which is a little worrying from a competence POV but would at least make their position less political/unsporting on this one, and would make Alonso's involvement much more likely and reasonable.

Happily, the FIA have clarified this today saying there's no case to answer. The FIA said http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104644
Autosport explains the pass and the flag/lights rules: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104645
Ecclestone said: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104650

Best of all goes to Sniff Petrol, though: http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/

Edited by Rainmaster, 29 November 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[The Shadow]

BradSpeedMan, on 29 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

oh really, its that easy??? ..... I feel the need to expose your favourite driver as the power-hungry greedy mongrel that he is, it is not over for me!

Err... Brad.... I am no fan of Alonso. It's certainly true I admire his ability, but I'm in the Hamilton camp..

And calling a driver a "greedy mongrel" over just one issue, does not show any degree of objectivity. "Power-hungry" .... I'd challenge you to find any racing driver with some modicum of success without that affinity. If given the avenue, most people would be power hungry, would they not?

[BradSpeedMan]

The Shadow, on 30 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Err... Brad.... I am no fan of Alonso. It's certainly true I admire his ability, but I'm in the Hamilton camp..

And calling a driver a "greedy mongrel" over just one issue, does not show any degree of objectivity. "Power-hungry" .... I'd challenge you to find any racing driver with some modicum of success without that affinity. If given the avenue, most people would be power hungry, would they not?

One issue?

[AleHop]

The Shadow, on 30 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Err... Brad.... I am no fan of Alonso. It's certainly true I admire his ability, but I'm in the Hamilton camp..

And calling a driver a "greedy mongrel" over just one issue, does not show any degree of objectivity. "Power-hungry" .... I'd challenge you to find any racing driver with some modicum of success without that affinity. If given the avenue, most people would be power hungry, would they not?

You are a disgruntled Alonso fan.

[BradSpeedMan]

Rainmaster, on 29 November 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

I don't know whether I believe Alonso is actually doing that, Bradman. To be honest, I find it hard to believe that from my position of having an internet connection, I would be able to find out more about this than Ferrari would. I know Ferrari sent a letter to the FIA last night asking for 'clarification', but I can only imagine the most likely scenario is that they already had all the relevant information available to them (because I did), and it was simply a political, mud slinging sort of move (as Paul suggested). I don't think that's the kind of thing Alonso is in a position to push through. I could be wrong, though. Of course, it's also possible Ferrari did want clarification and simply didn't have all the facts, which is a little worrying from a competence POV but would at least make their position less political/unsporting on this one, and would make Alonso's involvement much more likely and reasonable.

Happily, the FIA have clarified this today saying there's no case to answer. The FIA said http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104644
Autosport explains the pass and the flag/lights rules: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104645
Ecclestone said: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/104650

Best of all goes to Sniff Petrol, though: http://sniffpetrol.c...enge-christmas/

Base on threatening your team principal with incremental evidence to further your position in the team, I can believe it from a prima Donna like him

[BradSpeedMan]

Haven't seen Andres around lately...

Edited by BradSpeedMan, 30 November 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[Rainmaster]

He was having some health problem, wasn't he? Hopefully the bald one is alright and returns soon. Maybe he's just heartbroken about Vettel winning the title

[dribbler]

BradSpeedMan, on 29 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

oh really, its that easy??? ..... I feel the need to expose your favourite driver as the power-hungry greedy mongrel that he is, it is not over for me!

No one is mentioning that Ferrari were simply seeking clarification. That is not the same as putting a case forward. Also, having fought all year, if there was a chance that through clear cut evidence Vettel had in fact broken the rule, would you not suggest that Vettel's award should be over turned.

Why (apart from the most level headed) cannot see Ferrari's position for precisely what it is?

Put yourself in Alonso and/or Ferrari's position. Are you seriously suggesting you would not seek rule clarification?

Anyhoo, Vettel's deserved title still stands and this is now a non story. The only remaining issue is the petulant and spurious accusations people throw at teams for simply wanting a fair decision.

[Rainmaster]

There is certainly a large political element to all of this. Ferrari couldn't put a case forward, as the deadline had passed. The only way this could be reviewed is by the FIA themselves, so Ferrari asked for a clarification via a letter. Even though they accept the FIA statement, now they claim they were "not trying to undermine the legality of the race result" - a pretty disingenuous position considering the obvious impact a penalty would have on the championship.

As the F1Fanatic site points out: "If Ferrari genuinely wanted to shed light on “an incident that could have cast a shadow over the championship in the eyes of all Formula 1 enthusiasts”, then they would have explained why the pass was legal. Which they haven’t done – in fact, their statement is clearly written to avoid acknowledging that fact." (http://www.f1fanatic...comment-1113403)

Remember, people on the internet were able to extinguish this conspiracy practically before it started, and certainly before most media outlets reported the story, and before Ferrari sent their letter (all of which was Wednesday night). Do Ferrari expect us to naively believe they didn't already know all of this before we did? When they have all of the information to hand while we have to seek it out? I don't buy it.

Edited by Rainmaster, 30 November 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[pabloh20]

Rainmaster, on 30 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

He was having some health problem, wasn't he? Hopefully the bald one is alright and returns soon. Maybe he's just heartbroken about Vettel winning the title

Was he??  Anybody any ideas?

[BradSpeedMan]

dribbler, on 30 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

No one is mentioning that Ferrari were simply seeking clarification. That is not the same as putting a case forward. Also, having fought all year, if there was a chance that through clear cut evidence Vettel had in fact broken the rule, would you not suggest that Vettel's award should be over turned.

Why (apart from the most level headed) cannot see Ferrari's position for precisely what it is?

Put yourself in Alonso and/or Ferrari's position. Are you seriously suggesting you would not seek rule clarification?

Anyhoo, Vettel's deserved title still stands and this is now a non story. The only remaining issue is the petulant and spurious accusations people throw at teams for simply wanting a fair decision.

See George's post above... personally I would put this down to influence Alonso probably exerted on the team, you're free to make up your own mind....

[AleHop]

Rainmaster, on 30 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

He was having some health problem, wasn't he? Hopefully the bald one is alright and returns soon. Maybe he's just heartbroken about Vettel winning the title

He's The Baldy Avenger and revenge is a dish best served cold.

dribbler, on 30 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

No one is mentioning that Ferrari were simply seeking clarification. That is not the same as putting a case forward. Also, having fought all year, if there was a chance that through clear cut evidence Vettel had in fact broken the rule, would you not suggest that Vettel's award should be over turned.

Why (apart from the most level headed) cannot see Ferrari's position for precisely what it is?

Put yourself in Alonso and/or Ferrari's position. Are you seriously suggesting you would not seek rule clarification?

Anyhoo, Vettel's deserved title still stands and this is now a non story. The only remaining issue is the petulant and spurious accusations people throw at teams for simply wanting a fair decision.

Lovely stuff!

Rainmaster, on 30 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Remember, people on the internet were able to extinguish this conspiracy practically before it started, and certainly before most media outlets reported the story, and before Ferrari sent their letter (all of which was Wednesday night). Do Ferrari expect us to naively believe they didn't already know all of this before we did? When they have all of the information to hand while we have to seek it out? I don't buy it.

This wasn't born as a conspiracy theory, Sky was the first place that raised the yellow flags controversy and I realise now that there are a lot of things that needed clarification even for journalists, former drivers and of course for fans.

Ferrari is doing what they'd have done after Australia GP or any other GP of the season. For many F1 fans it's been a normal controversy if others are trying to stablish a conspiracy theory there's nothing Ferrari can do about it. They'll believe anything to keep it alive and will deny facts even if Ferrari or Alonso himself said it's been cleared, case closed.

[dribbler]

BradSpeedMan, on 30 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

See George's post above... personally I would put this down to influence Alonso probably exerted on the team, you're free to make up your own mind....

So what if he did? My point still stands. And you refuse to say you or anyone else are better than him by stating you would not have seeked clarification.

[BradSpeedMan]

AleHop, on 30 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

This wasn't born as a conspiracy theory, Sky was the first place that raised the yellow flags controversy and I realise now that there are a lot of things that needed clarification even for journalists, former drivers and of course for fans.

Ferrari is doing what they'd have done after Australia GP or any other GP of the season. For many F1 fans it's been a normal controversy if others are trying to stablish a conspiracy theory there's nothing Ferrari can do about it. They'll believe anything to keep it alive and will deny facts even if Ferrari or Alonso himself said it's been cleared, case closed.

So they are quite happy to dismiss the yellow flag calim (see #17) when the race are over an all, but when there is a conspiracy theory which fans get excited about they quickly turn the other cheek

[BradSpeedMan]

dribbler, on 30 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

So what if he did? My point still stands. And you refuse to say you or anyone else are better than him by stating you would not have seeked clarification.

Why seek clarification after they dismiss the claim 2 days earlier!!!! I smell a rat, and I think it's Alonso....(he's now turn from mongrel to a rat I swear is true)

[dribbler]

BradSpeedMan, on 30 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Why seek clarification after they dismiss the claim 2 days earlier!!!! I smell a rat, and I think it's Alonso....(he's now turn from mongrel to a rat I swear is true)

I didn't know about this. Do you have a source?

[Rainmaster]

It's important to think about the order of events here, the order is not: Ferrari consider a protest, YouTube footage emerges, internet discussion generated, media reports on internet discussion and Ferrari's "protest", Ferrari sends letter, FIA responds, media updates story.

The actual order is: YouTube footage emerges, internet discussion generated, Ferrari consider their protest, media reports on internet discussion (but is behind the curve as usual) and Ferrari's possible protest, Ferrari sends letter, FIA responds, etc.

So what actually happened here is that Ferrari capitalised on a period of confusion among a lot of fans on the internet (not helped by most media outlets like the BBC not reporting the story accurately), decided to give it authority by writing a letter, and then refused to properly acknowledge the reply (knowing that plenty of their fans will continue to think the pass was illegal). Even other team bosses were reported to have seen the footage and agreed there was a green flag.

If you don't think that's what Ferrari did here (i.e. you think they actually needed clarification) then I think you also have to believe at least the following claims:

• That Ferrari didn't have people watching Vettel's onboard footage during the actual race looking for exactly this sort of infringement (and note how quickly they responded to the Kobayashi claim, as soon as it was put to them)
  
• That Ferrari couldn't have easily analysed the overtake themselves, once they became aware of it, as they lack the means to do so, which would require believing that they lack:
  
• the footage (widely available on the internet and no doubt Ferrari have/could access even better quality footage); a circuit map (also available on the internet if they don't have one handy); a copy of the rulebook explaining the flag/lights system (available on the FIA website).

Again, think about how quickly people were able to dismiss this claim on the internet by simply using the (limited) footage available, applying a small amount of logic and looking at the rulebook. Now consider why Ferrari couldn't do that with all of their understanding and resources, and most importantly, consider whether they had anything to gain from perpetuating the confusion and their relationship with Red Bull.

Lastly, the above being the case (and seems by far the most likely option) I don't see Alonso as being involved. If Ferrari didn't need a clarification as I suspect, then the move was just a political game and although Alonso is not adverse to the odd mind game and attempt to undermine Vettel's title/ability, he wouldn't have anything to gain here.

[Rainmaster]

pabloh20, on 30 November 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Was he??  Anybody any ideas?

I think he had a toothache problem.