115 replies to this topic

[Senna]

Ralf’s biggest problem in my eyes is a lack of talent.

[nichosnz]

What does that say about Montoya at time in particular, early 2001 and 2003.  If he was beaten by a talentless ....

[Taku]

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yea i moust of read rong then because in f1 racing i think it was there was a bit in there were sato said that he worked whith driffent people

i read this in f1 racing too.  it clearly stated that the team of engineers he was working on in the test team was totally different to the one he raced with at suzuka.

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The wonderful thing about Sato is that he is a topic that unites all F1 fans, young and old; in hatred and shock of one of our sports worst ever racers. I have been watching F1 for many years, and each year we are treated to at least one pathetic driver – this year we welcome Zsolt Baumgartner to that elite group – but I am hard pressed to find a worse driver than Takuma Sato Here are some other legends from the past but they are not half as bad as Sato as they did generally finish races – although in Deletraz’s case a few laps down!

alisatair spink, i can't tell if your joking or not, but if you aren't then that is just plain ridiculous.  if that's the case you've obviously got a personal issue with sato.  if you look at the other drivers in that list, i'm sure most of them never even scored a single point in f1.

[Senna]

How many has Sato got - 5

Sato is also in a good car.

[Senna]

I do think however that Sato will add significantly more points to his tally if one he stops crashing. He is no way near as good as JV though.

[Sato]

im being 100% serious when i say if sato got into a ferrari in say 2 or 3 years he could be a serious title threat!

[Taku]

i'm inclined to agree with jordan_rule.

and alastair i'm glad you've at least conceded sato isn't the worst driver of all time!  or have you?

[webber]

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im being 100% serious when i say if sato got into a ferrari in say 2 or 3 years he could be a serious title threat!

i will have 2 agree whith that sato is way better that u say he is Alistar.

[Senna]

On his 2002 performance I believe Takuma Sato puts forward a good case for being regarded as the worst ever F1 driver (Some people agree with me and have voted him on the pole.  I suspect more would agree with me but for the strong competition on the poll – there were some real old legends there).  However that could change…we’ll have to wait and see...Sato could have improved.

“im being 100% serious when i say if sato got into a ferrari in say 2 or 3 years he could be a serious title threat!”

Sato will never drive for Ferrari and, if he drives like he did in 02, will be extremely lucky to be in F1 in 2 or 3 years.  I can honestly say he will be one of the highlights of the new season for me and I look forward to Australia…

[webber]

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(Some people agree with me and have voted him on the pole.  I suspect more would agree with me but for the strong competition on the poll – there were some real old legends there)

the only time most of us will vote 4 sato (as beening the worst driver) is if sato is the only 1 in the pole

[Senna]

The new BAR looks quite nice – hope Sato doesn’t scratch the paint off…

[webber]

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The new BAR looks quite nice – hope Sato doesn’t scratch the paint off…

lol    thats funny, but mean 2

[Taku]

the only paint he'll be scratching is renault blue, as he muscles his way past them to help bar to 4th in the championship!

[Senna]

If by `muscling his way past them` you mean Sato will crash into the Renaults I agree with you totally, but you have to face up to the facts.  No matter how good BAR are, even if they can match the Renault’s, they are now a one-driver team and as such do not have a prayer of competing with Renault in the overall constructor’s championship.  BAR will finish 5th again but much closer to Renault (I think it was around 55 points behind last year) – probably about 30 points behind this year then!

[nichosnz]

There is no way BAR will beat Renault, you must be dreaming.

[webber]

and u must be dreaming if u think, bar is going 2 be a 1 man team

[Senna]

Hey…I’m not the guy who’s dreaming - that’s in the last post but you must be dreaming to say that BAR will not be a one-man team in 2004.  BAR have one decent driver who has learnt how to finish races – Jenson Button – Hence DR will build the team round Jenson and give him tacit control in an almost Ferrari like setup.  DR has also said JB is team leader anyway!  

There is no way BAR will beat Renault. Period.  Unless, Sato might be able to take both Renault’s out at the start of the race and then let Jenson score the points, good plan.

[Taku]

i will stick by my belief that bar can come 4th this year.  i believe they'll beat renault because i think renault are the ones that'll perform the least out of the current big 4.  
i agree it's a very optimistic viewpoint, but i'm a bar fan so there may be a little bit of dreamer in that statement.  we'll see how the season pans out.  melbourne's only 2 weeks away and testing is almost over so why don't we wait to melbourne to see just how much of a dreamer i am when it comes to bar's chances.

if bar are so obviously off the big 4 pace by the time they return to europe, then i'll quietly cease the ove-optimistic statements re bar's potential.

if they are on the pace though, i'll expect some respect to be shown towards the men from brackley  :wink:

[Taku]

oh i can hear the replies now!  "they'll get my respect when they win champioships!"

[nichosnz]

I don't see that happening, so I am quite sure that they will not do enough to earn my respect.  In fact I think BAR are the team I respect/favour/support/etc the least.

[webber]

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Hey…I’m not the guy who’s dreaming - that’s in the last post but you must be dreaming to say that BAR will not be a one-man team in 2004.  BAR have one decent driver who has learnt how to finish races – Jenson Button – Hence DR will build the team round Jenson and give him tacit control in an almost Ferrari like setup.  DR has also said JB is team leader anyway!  

There is no way BAR will beat Renault. Period.  Unless, Sato might be able to take both Renault’s out at the start of the race and then let Jenson score the points, good plan.

the way the renault are going no one will beat them. and i did not say that BAR will beat renault BAR will finsh 5th, 6th,7th or 8th no way will thay be better than 5th. i do not like BAR but i do think that Sato is a good driver a lot better than u give him credit for. jes JB is the #1 driver but thats only because hes been in F1 a lot longer than Sato. so cut Sato some slack at the end of 2002 he came good and all last year he was good. if the BAR is as good as thay say it is then he should be up there with the top guns.

[Senna]

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the way the renault are going no one will beat them. and i did not say that BAR will beat renault BAR will finsh 5th, 6th,7th or 8th no way will thay be better than 5th. i do not like BAR but i do think that Sato is a good driver a lot better than u give him credit for. jes JB is the #1 driver but thats only because hes been in F1 a lot longer than Sato. so cut Sato some slack at the end of 2002 he came good and all last year he was good. if the BAR is as good as thay say it is then he should be up there with the top guns.

Sato is not a good driver in anyone’s books – people only seem to argue about how bad he is with the range going from bad to awful (I firmly believe the latter, except when he’s at Japan then he is ok but nothing special).  I very much doubt that Sato will finish let alone race the `top guns` (which I doubt BAR is capable of anyway) and as for Sato getting some slack in 2002 – he deserved it, did you see 2002 by the way Taku?

[Sato]

he is a good driver in my books....so i guess ur wrong....once again.

[webber]

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the way the renault are going no one will beat them. and i did not say that BAR will beat renault BAR will finsh 5th, 6th,7th or 8th no way will thay be better than 5th. i do not like BAR but i do think that Sato is a good driver a lot better than u give him credit for. jes JB is the #1 driver but thats only because hes been in F1 a lot longer than Sato. so cut Sato some slack at the end of 2002 he came good and all last year he was good. if the BAR is as good as thay say it is then he should be up there with the top guns.

Sato is not a good driver in anyone’s books – people only seem to argue about how bad he is with the range going from bad to awful (I firmly believe the latter, except when he’s at Japan then he is ok but nothing special).  I very much doubt that Sato will finish let alone race the `top guns` (which I doubt BAR is capable of anyway) and as for Sato getting some slack in 2002 – he deserved it, did you see 2002 by the way Taku?

yes i sore 2002 and yes he was not good until the end were he raced alright then at Japan were he raced a great race. but that was 2002 and now its now 2004 and sato was good in testing and did good in Japan. like i said i dont like BAR but i do like JB(when hes behind webber) and Sato and u keep comparing Sato to Young when Young chould not eaven cut it in INDY.

[Senna]

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he is a good driver in my books....so i guess ur wrong....once again.

Sato is not a good driver and I look forward to berating you, Taku and Webber when Sato is continually outpaced by Button, when he has the odd crash and when he generally drives like he doesn’t deserve to be in F1.  Sato is normally 0.3 sec down on Button in testing and I predict that will be the usual gap in 2004.

Sato did not drive that well in Japan 2003, here’s why:

Sato qualified (with a time of 1m33.924s) 0.5 seconds down on button (with a time of 1m33.474s) and that was with a lap less of fuel!  Further more, Sato went out last in the 1st session, when all the rubber was down to have the best possible chance of doing well, because he wasn’t classified in the world championship.  In the final qualifying session he was all over the place and looked very ragged – he was also slow (see above margin).  In the race he managed to have a collision with MS, where the blame was mixed, and eventually finished the race two places and some 19 seconds behind his teammate (with a race time of 1h26m03.435s) who finished fourth (with a time of 1h25m44.849s).  This is on the track he knows best and virtually grew up racing on (see my history of Takuma Sato if anyone disagrees) and he was still trounced by Jenson.  Further more, there can be no excuses – he knew the car and team very well and the track extremely well and he was still a disappointment.  He is a poor replacement for Jacques Villeneuve.

[Taku]

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yes i sore 2002 and yes he was not good until the end were he raced alright then at Japan were he raced a great race. but that was 2002 and now its now 2004 and sato was good in testing and did good in Japan. like i said i dont like BAR but i do like JB(when hes behind webber) and Sato and u keep comparing Sato to Young when Young chould not eaven cut it in INDY.

very succinctly put.  alastair, you've really got to stop living in the past.  a lot has happened in sato's career since his crashes of 2002.  he has matured as a driver, and like i've said before he's only been racng for 7 years, so he is still relatively early in his development.  as an example jenson's been carting since 1989.

[Taku]

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I don't see that happening, so I am quite sure that they will not do enough to earn my respect.  In fact I think BAR are the team I respect/favour/support/etc the least.

why is that nichos?  i can understand if it's treatment of jv, or their performance in the pollock era, but apart from dr's handling of jv (if what nojvnof1 is true) i can't see many reasons of disliking their present form.  geoff willis is doing great things now..

[Taku]

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Sato is not a good driver and I look forward to berating you, Taku and Webber when Sato is continually outpaced by Button, when he has the odd crash and when he generally drives like he doesn’t deserve to be in F1.  Sato is normally 0.3 sec down on Button in testing and I predict that will be the usual gap in 2004.

Sato did not drive that well in Japan 2003, here’s why:

Sato qualified (with a time of 1m33.924s) 0.5 seconds down on button (with a time of 1m33.474s) and that was with a lap less of fuel!  Further more, Sato went out last in the 1st session, when all the rubber was down to have the best possible chance of doing well, because he wasn’t classified in the world championship.  In the final qualifying session he was all over the place and looked very ragged – he was also slow (see above margin).  In the race he managed to have a collision with MS, where the blame was mixed, and eventually finished the race two places and some 19 seconds behind his teammate (with a race time of 1h26m03.435s) who finished fourth (with a time of 1h25m44.849s).  This is on the track he knows best and virtually grew up racing on (see my history of Takuma Sato if anyone disagrees) and he was still trounced by Jenson.  Further more, there can be no excuses – he knew the car and team very well and the track extremely well and he was still a disappointment.  He is a poor replacement for Jacques Villeneuve.

you have obviously spent more than the usual amount of time in your response looking up times and what not, so i have responded accordingly.  i'm also going to give a decent rant here because i believe that you are actually serious about your position on sato.

there are at least a handful of people here who think that sato is a decent driver, and i think you can add to that a considerable number in the bar team and in the british f3 series, where he won 12 races in 2001.  but given this pedigree, i'm assuming you only meant "not in anyone's books" purely as a figure of speech, because it is obviously untrue.  so we'll move on to your more factually-based points.

as for berating us sato fans, i think that is fine if his pperformance this season doesn't deliver, because he has been given a really good chance this year with a solid-looking car and a season of racing (yes "racing" alastair, not "crashing", cos that was what he was doing and is, ie a hard-nosed racer) and solid testing behind him he is now ready to be judged this year.  

sato is not normally 3 tenths down on button, they have been trading fastest laps.  now i'm not saying that sato is faster then button, but you wouldn't say rubens is faster than m$.  however he is capable of matching and sometimes beating button's pace and has demonstrated this in testing.  like i said before, sato is early in his career relative to jensen so you can only use him as a benchmark, not an equal driver (yet).  no-one is disputing that jenson is number 1 at bar.

gene/sato - a fairer 1-race comparison

now if you are going to analyse sato's performance relative to button at suzuka, in effect comparing a driver who up untill the race of comparison had not missed a single race in the then-current season, with a driver who had only been doing testing up untill the race of comparison, then i think a fairer analysis would be to compare the relative performance gaps between marc gene's fill-in drive at monza last year with monty's performance.  this was the 3rd-last race of the year with williams need ing the points, and suzuka was the last race of the year, with bar needing the points.  i realise that gene was called in at the very last moment with ralf being ill and did not qualify in the 1st session.  depending on who and what you believe, so was sato (or alternatively he always knew he was racing at suzuka).  but to just compare button & sato at suzuka and saying sato failed cos he was slower would be equivalent to saying gene failed against monty because he was slower than monty.  i believe tehre was a general consensus that gene delivered the goods.

monza quali 2
monty quali2:  (1'21"014) --> P2
gene quali2: (1'21"834) --> P5    (+ .820 sec and 3 place diff)

suzuka quali 2
button qulai2  (1'33"474) --> P9
sato quali2  (1'33"924) --> P13 (+.450 sec and 4 place diff)

the difference i beleive is negligible, given that the michelin-shod williams by that point was the favourite to win both champioinships.  by that description i i'm going to say it must have been an easier car to drive than the bar (tyre controversy not-withstanding).  the relative gaps place sato closer to button than gene to monty anyway.  

you also neglected to mention the quali1 results.  and i don't think i need to remind you that that is where the true relative qualifying performances are to be cpmpared for last year's season.  i believe there is a consensus in the f1 community on that idea:

suzuka quali 1
button quali1 (1'32"374) --> P16
sato quali1 (1'31"832) --> P11  (-0.542 and 4 places ahead)

sato was in fact faster here.  yes yes, he went out last, but if you are going to compare quali then this should be the session for comparison, end of story.

                               race pace

monza
monty chequered flag:  (1h14'25"132) --> P2
gene chequered flag: (1h14'47"729) --> P5    ( +22.597 sec slower & 3 place diff)

suzuka
button chequered flag  (1h25'44"846) --> P4
sato chequered flag(1h26'03".433) --> P6 (+18.587 sec and 2 place diff)

this comparison imo gives a more accurate reflection of the expectations on a test driver who is filling in for 1 race.  after spending the rest of the season concentrating on set-up work and performance gains, he then has to switch to trying to purely beat the opposition.   as in quali, sato had a relative gap that was shorter than gene to monty in the final race result.  this was also with da matta pushing him hard in the toyota to the end and m$ nudging him along unneccesarily.

so i disagree with you again, i believe he did in fact drive well at suzuka, when compared to a driver in a comparable situation (gene), who also happens to be rated by none other than frank williams and patrick head.  but of course, you think frank is a poor team boss don't you.  

"practically grew up at suzuka"??

if you mean this as in he spent his first ever year of racing any motor cars at allat a place called suzuka, in a kart i might add, then yes, he spent one year in the program you mentioned, in 1997.  after his first-ever year of racing in the kart program in 1997, he won as a prize for topping his class a full drive in the japanese f3 championship.  

instead he packed his bags for britain, to race in british formula racing series' and shunned the usual j-driver creer path to slug it out with the best in europe (this is an ambitious driver who knows what it really takes to get to the top of motor racing).  within 4 years (that's 5 years since jumping behind a wheel in competition) he swept the british f3 field.  

to the best of my knowledge, he never returned to suzuka to relive his childhood days, driving around the track blindfolded in his sleep cos he practically grew up there, but only raced there once in 1998 and in 2002 with jordan.  

the track has also had alterations during this time, so it's not like brockie racing at bathurst, "cos he practically grew up there..".   *sorry if you don't know who brockie is.

to add to the gene/sato comparison, f1 teams have tested at monza regularly, and gene was even there the preceding week when ralf crashed.  this preparation of testing at the circuit just the previous week surely gave him a better preparation than having last raced at the circuit 12 months ago.

i can also be sure that there is a big diff b/w the mentality of a test driver on test day, and a race driver on race day, and swithcing modes for just 1 race cannot be as smooth as being switched-on all season, esp against the pscychologically battle-hardened button who just toughed out a full season with the intrimidating jv.  so again, it's unfair to compare the race result of sato with button, who has also been a race driver first and foremost for 4 years now with no break.

as for knowing his car and team well prior to suzuka, this issue was addressed in f1 racing magazine 2 issues ago.  i suggest you read it because there is none of the unabated negativity that you display in your assessments of sato.  it is a verty positive article and i think it would do you good to hear the thoughts of these pros, if the totalf1 sato fan club opinions are falling on your deaf ears.   so if you think i don't know what i'm on about, then these guys can't be denied.

conclusion

so given the above points alastair, sato could hardly be considered on a short-list of the worst-ever drivers in f1, let alone at the top.  we've only done pretty simple analyses of his race & quali performance in 2003 at suzuka.  my conclusion: he drove well at suzuka.  

you know how much telemetry f1 teams have, and you do hear occassional praise about him in the f1 press and community.  no, people like bernie aren't coming out with lavish praise a la webber, kimi and alonso, but the fact that no one is blatantly coming out and saying he deosn't deserve a place in f1 (except you of course) like they did about yoong, is surely a positive endorsement of sorts.  no news is good news in this case  :wink:

so mate, i'm mystified that you rate him so poorly, and i'll ask you again.  what did he do to you alastair, did he date your sister or something?  

[Sato]

Bravo!!!!!!

Great work man....Ca't wait to see how Sato goes in the first race.

[webber]

and also with your MONTY/GENE and BUTTON/SATO comparison. Gene was 22sec behind Monty on a track that has only 7 turns wile Sato was 18sec behind on a track with a lot more turns