115 replies to this topic

[nojvnof1]

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I don't see that happening, so I am quite sure that they will not do enough to earn my respect.  In fact I think BAR are the team I respect/favour/support/etc the least.

why is that nichos?  i can understand if it's treatment of jv, or their performance in the pollock era, but apart from dr's handling of jv (if what nojvnof1 is true) i can't see many reasons of disliking their present form.  geoff willis is doing great things now..

and remember, it was Craig Pollock who signed Geoff Willis, not David Richards. As for Sato's quali lap of Suzuka, I watched at the local and to say he was all over the place is a massive understatement. The way he was going he looked like the driver he was of 2002, one who always looked like loosing it. He was going through the essess after the start/finish straight and the way he was hacksawing at the wheel was crazy, he nearly lost it about 3 or 4 times and lost so much time.

As for his performances in British F3, seriously, get over it. F3 is not F1. Any of you remember Jan Magnussen. They were calling him the "new Senna" as he won more races than Senna did, but when he came into F1, he was the biggest dissapointment of hyped up F1 drivers EVER. What you do in junior formulas counts for nothing. Look at Webber, if I'm correct he hasn't won any titles that he participated in but is doing well in F1. It doesn't matter what you've won. If you don't perform when given the chance in F1, you're nothing but a never-was. Sato had one good race in 2002, at Suzuka where he had a better engine than any of the other 3 Honda drivers, and thats a fact!! For the other races, he was nothing but an accident waiting to happen. For this year, i'll comment after the first races as he MAY have improved, but we'll see.

shaun

[Senna]

Taku, you simply cannot compare Juan Pablo Montoya, one of the best drivers in F1 and a master racer, to Gene and use that comparison against Button and Sato, claiming in doing so, that Sato did comparatively better than Gene, as he was closer to his teammate.  Your argument is sheer nonsense – you can’t say driver D did well and thus better than driver B because he was comparatively closer to driver C than driver B was against A, especially when you blatantly don’t account for the relative driver performance within those same teams.  You can only really compare drivers within teams, if you try with drivers from different teams it becomes difficult to work out how much the tyres, engine, car and driver fundamentally adds to the overall package and thus who is a better driver not driver-car combination.  My analysis shows how, even with huge benefits such as running last in the first session and having rain affect many of Sato’s opponents who would normally demote him down the grid (Kimi, MS, Rubens, Ralf and Trulli were all affected by the rain) and with a intimate knowledge of the track, young Jenson Button beat him convincingly on what is undoubtedly Sato’s best track – this you must admit and in doing so, you admit that the gap Jenson beat Sato at Japan is likely to be increased at all the other tracks as Sato will not be able to match his Suzuka pace, which as I have argued in this and previous posts, was not too great!

[Taku]

yeah i know shaun i watched his suzuka quali lap too, but you've gotta remember it was his first go at 1-lap qualifying and race conditions too for the year.  not all driver's were able to get straight on it.

i didn't know he had a better honda than everyone else at suzuka in 2002.  that's certainly interesting if true, but i find that hard to believe.  why jeopardise points just to make 1 driver out of 4 look good?  but if you say it's true and they were playing favourites then that's a worry, because that is certainly not in the best interests of honda...

[Taku]

alastair, i think you missed my point.  i was in no way making a direct comparison between the driver's of the 2 teams and their relative skills, nor the differentials in performance amongst the 2 teams. (although i do think button has talent to match montoya).  it was more of a situational analysis comparing the circumstances that existed at the time for the 2 pairs of drivers, and being able to compare the "sub's" performance in a fair(er) way..  

if 2 drivers are using the same equipment, then all other things being equal, they should be doing similar lap times.  this i believe is your point, which is logical over a full season.  of course it's impossible for all other things to actually be equal, but i think it's unfair to take your critical approach where you compare the 2 driver's within the team when 1 has been racing all year and the other has just been testing to improve the car full stop.  sato had not, up until suzuka, really driven the car in anger in competition.  it was liek the season-opener for him.  if sato & button had been racing together from day 1 of 2003 season then fine, compare them against each other and let's see who comes out on top and by how far.  my analysis was just trying to take into account the fact that a test driver is subbing in against a race driver who's been there all year.  you obviously think that's BS.  but i think it explains why he wasn't as close to (or ahead of?!) button as he could be, and why he did in fact have a good drive, whereas you think he didn't.  i also think this gives reason to think that he did well given the circumstances, as did frank and patrick of gene's efforts.  it simply wasn't as poor a replacement effort for jv as you said.

as for sato's reputation, i think the only way this will be resolved is to compare their direct relative performances in melbourne, as they both have tested equally and have yet to race this year.  we can repeat the comparison race-by-race.  now i don't expect sato to whip button's a## by any means (people don't talk about sato as future wdc), but i think that he will be a lot closer than he was at suzuka 2003, if not better at some circuits.  button has a lot more experience mind, but sato is not a s##t driver and does deserve his place in f1.  which you will come to admit eventually, i'm sure!!

[webber]

im on taku's side hear but there is 1 thing that maks Sato pron to chracing and that is the way he sets up the car. he sets up the car fore one thing and thats to go fast, fast and faster these is no compromsine in the way he sets up hes car. so if he lurnd not to have a car on a knife's edge then he will stop chrasing alltogether.

[nojvnof1]

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yeah i know shaun i watched his suzuka quali lap too, but you've gotta remember it was his first go at 1-lap qualifying and race conditions too for the year.  not all driver's were able to get straight on it.

i didn't know he had a better honda than everyone else at suzuka in 2002.  that's certainly interesting if true, but i find that hard to believe.  why jeopardise points just to make 1 driver out of 4 look good?  but if you say it's true and they were playing favourites then that's a worry, because that is certainly not in the best interests of honda...

Not in the best interests of Honda?? What would be better than a Japanese driver scoring well in the Japanese GP with a Japanese engine?? Race on sunday, sell on monday!!

shaun

[webber]

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yeah i know shaun i watched his suzuka quali lap too, but you've gotta remember it was his first go at 1-lap qualifying and race conditions too for the year.  not all driver's were able to get straight on it.

i didn't know he had a better honda than everyone else at suzuka in 2002.  that's certainly interesting if true, but i find that hard to believe.  why jeopardise points just to make 1 driver out of 4 look good?  but if you say it's true and they were playing favourites then that's a worry, because that is certainly not in the best interests of honda...

Not in the best interests of Honda?? What would be better than a Japanese driver scoring well in the Japanese GP with a Japanese engine?? Race on sunday, sell on monday!!

shaun

thats the plan

[Senna]

I think we should add Japanese tyre to Shaun’s list as at that stage BAR were still using Bridgestone tyres.

[webber]

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I think we should add Japanese tyre to Shaun’s list as at that stage BAR were still using Bridgestone tyres.

eeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrr Alistair that is so dumb bridgestone has enouf suckses with ferrari and the bit B's dont sponser Sato so that is very very very very very very very very very very very evry very very very very rong

[Senna]

No it’s not wrong.  I know that Honda and Bridgestone are not linked in any sense, but in terms of the Honda guys marketing BAR what would be better than a Japanese driver, on Japanese tyres, with a Japanese engine scoring well at the Japanese GP? (Which is a circuit owned by Honda).  I am not suggesting Sato and Bridgestone are linked at all, what I am saying is that from a marketing perspective the Japanese GP 0f 2003 would have been quite favourable to Honda.  I think you misunderstood my post.

[Taku]

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Not in the best interests of Honda?? What would be better than a Japanese driver scoring well in the Japanese GP with a Japanese engine?? Race on sunday, sell on monday!!

shaun

no no i realise this patriotic japanese dream.  

i was thinking along the lines of the constructors race, it would be counter-productive.  surely to have one driver do well at the detriment of 3 other honda cars is not a good thing in the big scheme of things (esp when BAR were known to be getting exclsusive honda engines the following year).  but yes, i was perhaps being a little too long-term in my view.  japanese (mangement) tend not to think overly short-term that's all.

f1 was falling in populartity in japan prior to sato's performance. so it was a very big short-term gain for the sport in general if his perfomance was in fact helped along by what you were saying.

[AutoRacer5]

In my opinion, the front nose is quite slender.

[Senna]

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In my opinion, the front nose is quite slender.

Coming from the man who thought that Michael Schumacher had the best looking car in 1994...

[webber]

the FW16 was by fat the best car in 1994 well IMO

[nojvnof1]

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the FW16 was by fat the best car in 1994 well IMO

as the season wore on it was, but when the season started it was a dog of a car in terms of setup. It was quick but didn't respond well to setup changes according to Damon Hill who recalled Imola '94 in an article on the weekend.

[webber]

thatys because that inside V thing that thay had on the rear wing made the cars air flow over the back very twichy and hard to get right. but when thay took that off (the race after Imola) the car got better (well a bit)

[AutoRacer5]

Let me clarify what I said: The BAR 006's nose is slender, or thin for those of you with a limited vocabulary. Schumacher still had the best looking car in 1994, but in 1991 the Jordan that he "drove" was looking good as well.

[webber]

yea well i think that the FW16 was the best looking car in 1994. i dont that that the car that M$ drove was like the FW26. new and ugly but rather fast

[AutoRacer5]

No offense, but I like the combo of Blue and Green on the B194.

[Senna]

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the FW16 was by fat the best car in 1994 well IMO

The Williams was not at all quick for the early part of the season and it was only Senna’s genius that put the car on pole…there were also suggestions that Schumacher was illegally running traction control on his car…

[AutoRacer5]

Like...

[webber]

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the FW16 was by fat the best car in 1994 well IMO

The Williams was not at all quick for the early part of the season and it was only Senna’s genius that put the car on pole…there were also suggestions that Schumacher was illegally running traction control on his car…

i ment that the FW16 was the by far the best looking car in 1994.

hay is it just me or do all the F3 care now look like the cars that were on the grid in the start of the 90

[Senna]

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i ment that the FW16 was the by far the best looking car in 1994.

I agree with you there – the old Williams’ livery was very nice.

[AutoRacer5]

The best looking Williams car for me is a tie between the FW11B and the FW19.

[webber]

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The best looking Williams car for me is a tie between the FW11B and the FW19.

show us pic's.

[AutoRacer5]

I hope this works...

FW11B:



FW19:

[/img]

[nojvnof1]

Gotta go with the 19, the car Jacques took to the title!!  

[AutoRacer5]

unfortunately, he did take it to the title.

[Senna]

The 1996 Williams looked nice too...

[AutoRacer5]

[img]http://www.allf1.inf...hotos1/fw18.jpg[img]