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Mechanical Grip And Performance Of F1 Car


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#1 zdzisio

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 08:32 AM

Here is little something that I have found on the net, and in fact that "something" is  somebody else writing about something that has been found somewhere on the net.  :)

I know this reasoning has some flaws, but my question is: what do you think?
What are best cars in terms of mechanical grip?
How much are the differences between the cars affecting their performance?
Is it really making that big difference?

Taken from: http://www.sportnetw...91/st115217.htm

Quote

BMW Sauber car the most stable & with best grip? By Jaime M. - April 21 2007

After doing some research and analyzing certain infos, I have found some interesting comments related to the BMW SauberF1 car, that can make us believe that it is the car with best mechanical grip and stability, and with the best qualities when following another car.

That’s surprising, especially if you remember that BMW would be the best in aero mainly, as the Hinwil factory has the best windtunnel in F1 and has the most powerful computer in the European industry, that is used in CFD calculations for optimizing the aerodynamic performance.

Here are the comments I found that talk about the issue:

Quote

Currently the best car when following up close is, as you guessed the BMW Sauber. BMW have the best stability when passing cars and riding the rear wing of others.

This is due to the fact that the BMW Sauber F1.07 is the most mechanically stable car, with the best suspension, hence the best mechanical grip. The BMW is just great when it comes to slower more mechanically dependant corners and thus can slow and accelerate through and out of these much faster then McLaren or Ferrari.

I really think that at a race like Monaco, BMW is going to be very tough to beat and next year when there is no TC it's going to be even more advanced.

Ferrari's problem is not their aero, as you can't really design a car that's going to be more aero efficient when following other cars that close. The problem is that the car in front is slicing though the air and putting all of it onto its rear wing, the car behind as a result gets NO AIR of its own. Therefore, you can have all the aero advancements you want, but it wont does squat when there is not air to act on the aero pieces.

Ferrari's problem has always been this season at least it's Mechanical grip, we are THE most advanced aero car, but lack good Mechanical grip and when the car in front takes the air away, all that's left holding the car to the road are crappy Bridgestone’s riding on Ferrari suspension which in our case is not enough.

To add more, the BMW-Sauber F1.07, although a more mechanical grip reliant car, has got one of the best wind tunnels to develop this mechanical grip system and test aero affects on its performance

Before you jump all over me about the fact that mechanical grip has nothing to do with performance let me explain
BMW is the ONLY team in F1 today that is able to have 2 cars in the wind tunnel at the same time. They are the only team that doesn't have to get out on track and drive behind another car and ask their driver for how the car will behave.

By having 2 cars in the wind tunnel at the same time, they are able to test just how much downforce is lost at what speed and predict how it will affect their car. They can then design a suspension system and do some minimal aero work to help with this loss of downforce experienced during the loss of front aero grip.
How much of this is true or not is something only the BMW-Sauber technicians know, but at least this analysis looks sensible (well some parts don't, but most of it does) and quite close to the truth. We will see if this facts help the BMW Sauber Team to reach the top soon.


#2 Shane2

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 12:02 PM

That was quiet interesting actually, hard to say if it is totally true, but with Monaco just round the corner, we shall soon see.


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#3 scarbs

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:18 PM

I think the argumentis flawed.  Mechanical grip is different to how well a car runs behind another car.  In fact mechanical grip only comes in to the equation at speeds under 100mph.  runnign well behind another car is a case of aero sensitivity.  
I think the point the quote is trying to make is the BMW works well in distrubed airflow, something its designer Rampf  alluded to at the launch.

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#4 LabradoRacer

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 01:37 PM

My technical knowledge is zilch. So I hope my question can be pardoned , if it sounds foolish.

If BMW has the maximum grip ,does it mean that they will be the strongest when traction control is banned?

#5 scarbs

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 02:25 PM

View PostLabradoRacer, on Apr 25 2007, 01:37 PM, said:

My technical knowledge is zilch. So I hope my question can be pardoned , if it sounds foolish.

If BMW has the maximum grip ,does it mean that they will be the strongest when traction control is banned?

Labradoracer,
You're not far wrong, although how good traction will be after the ban is also dependant on the engines power delivery.

Note: Mechanical grip not only covers traction out of corners, but braking into them and grip going around them.

#6 DOF_power

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 10:38 AM

>



^ Improving mecanical grip can be done by:

- a type of suspensions either passive (hydropneumatic, hydrolastic, hydragas) or active that can follow the road properly;
- slicks
- widetrack (the old 2.00 meters vs. the 1.80 of today)
- banning the flat bottom witch makes the cars sensitive

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You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton


#7 Quiet One

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 10:55 AM

View PostDOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 1 2007, 07:38 AM, said:

>
^ Improving mecanical grip can be done by:

- a type of suspensions either passive (hydropneumatic, hydrolastic, hydragas) or active that can follow the road properly;
- slicks
- widetrack (the old 2.00 meters vs. the 1.80 of today)
- banning the flat bottom witch makes the cars sensitive
:lol: Sorry, but I 've been reading your latest posts and all of them keep saying the same on different threads. And you even make the effort to type it every time as none of them is just a copypaste!

No offense meant here as I welcome your input very much, and I agree with many of your points. I just found it funny when I realized I was reading the same thing over and over again, explained in differentg ways!

Here's a question for you ro whoever could answer it: Which was the average budget for a team during each of the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s decade? Just a thought that keeps running in my head when we talk about bringing back the slicks and getting rid of TC and driver aids.
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#8 DOF_power

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 11:12 AM

View PostQuiet One, on Sep 1 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

:lol: Sorry, but I 've been reading your latest posts and all of them keep saying the same on different threads. And you even make the effort to type it every time as none of them is just a copypaste!

No offense meant here as I welcome your input very much, and I agree with many of your points. I just found it funny when I realized I was reading the same thing over and over again, explained in differentg ways!

Here's a question for you ro whoever could answer it: Which was the average budget for a team during each of the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s decade? Just a thought that keeps running in my head when we talk about bringing back the slicks and getting rid of TC and driver aids.


I know it's copy paste. But they're all conected and reduced to the same fundamental flaws.

The budgets were lower 60s/70s vs. 80s/90s/today, but were bigger in the 1930s (relative to inflation) with techno marvel silver arrows.


So since birth of the GP cars, we've had:
- mega teams with big budgets of MB and AU
- the raggs/poverty years 50s/60s/70s of low/lower costs
- return of the mega teams with big budgets from the 1980s on

I don't have figures, but I know the costs have spiraled for decades and the measures/many to reduce costs by banning technology have had the exact opposite effect.

And regardless if we talk of the decades, from a technological point there was always a division those who have it/technological edge and  those who don't (mid-engine, monocoque, ground effects, turbos, carbon fibre, active suspensions).
And unless the have nots implemented these they'd be left in the dust.

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You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton


#9 Quiet One

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 11:52 AM

Mind you, I said it is NOT copypaste. At least to me it seemed that every one of the post was written for that specific thread.

ABout the budgets...that's what I thought. Ok, I will make a new thread about it because it is not specifically centered around mechanical grip.
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#10 goferrarigo

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 04:18 PM

View PostQuiet One, on Sep 1 2007, 06:52 AM, said:

Mind you, I said it is NOT copypaste. At least to me it seemed that every one of the post was written for that specific thread.

ABout the budgets...that's what I thought. Ok, I will make a new thread about it because it is not specifically centered around mechanical grip.
me too...

hell by know i know most of things u want....
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#11 DOF_power

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 08:15 PM

Simple, I want:

Faster (and safer) cars and a (far) better spectacle.

Don't we all ?!

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You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton


#12 goferrarigo

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 10:44 PM

View PostDOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 1 2007, 03:15 PM, said:

Simple, I want:

Faster (and safer) cars and a (far) better spectacle.

Don't we all ?!
Nahh you have a bit of longer list...

like no tc, no aids, slicks, no ground effects and on and on.....

but that would be a nice one line summary....

but do you really want it to be safer? i just want the speed
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#13 DOF_power

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 05:46 PM

View Postgoferrarigo, on Sep 2 2007, 01:44 AM, said:

Nahh you have a bit of longer list...

like no tc, no aids, slicks, no ground effects and on and on.....

but that would be a nice one line summary....

but do you really want it to be safer? i just want the speed


Safety yes as I don't want people to be injured and killed. Formula slaughterhouse days are hpefully over.

Besides, define driver aids witch you do not want and ways to trully police them ...
And don't give this ban non-sense, cause that's not enough, just crapysfull thinking favoring the (big) teams with the best hidden aids.

Ground-effects ... so you don't want extra performance, safety and overtaking ?!
Because this can help big time.

Quote

You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton


#14 goferrarigo

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 12:19 AM

View PostDOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 2 2007, 12:46 PM, said:

Safety yes as I don't want people to be injured and killed. Formula slaughterhouse days are hpefully over.

Besides, define driver aids witch you do not want and ways to trully police them ...
And don't give this ban non-sense, cause that's not enough, just crapysfull thinking favoring the (big) teams with the best hidden aids.

Ground-effects ... so you don't want extra performance, safety and overtaking ?!
Because this can help big time.
Don't misunderstand me.... i am not saying your wrong... i agree with the things you say(or atleast the parts which i understand)... Anything to improve overtaking and the overall race....

Even i don't want poeple to be killed... but only the german gp this year was exiticing and awesome, just because a lot of unexpected things happened... hell a spyker lead the race for a while, i would like every race to be like that and not just 1 or 2 in a season....
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#15 DOF_power

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 01:22 PM

>



^ Well Montreal was also a good race. And you saw a Super Auguri overtaking a McLaren, due to tire graining.

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You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton


#16 goferrarigo

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 04:27 PM

View PostDOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 3 2007, 08:22 AM, said:

>
^ Well Montreal was also a good race. And you saw a Super Auguri overtaking a McLaren, due to tire graining.
I couldn't watch Montreal was on a flight but i was really p**sed of after monaco last year was a very good race but this year the race had only one overtaking by BMW that too due t pit strategy....
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#17 DOF_power

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 07:46 PM

Then, I feels sorry. You don't know what you missed.

Quote

You start with fuel, you do one stop and it's pretty much a train all the way
Lewis Hamilton


#18 goferrarigo

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Posted 03 September 2007 - 08:01 PM

View PostDOF_Renault_BMW, on Sep 3 2007, 02:46 PM, said:

Then, I feels sorry. You don't know what you missed.
I don't. Ignorence is Bliss i guess....
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