23 replies to this topic

[Eric]

Now that my blog is dead (so sad), I'll post this here.

Today I'd like to discuss A1 GP.  It's a good general concept, nationalism and such and hooplah.  A good way for some talent from some traditionally non-grand prix countries (India, Pakistan, Lebanon, USA, Canada, Mexico, etc) to be introduced into the European racing world.  Yet it went wrong.

Here's my idea for A1 GP.  The racing is thrilling, in my opinion.  I love watching A1, it's just rare that I get to.  There's just something missing.

If A1 GP really wants to be the World Cup of motorsport, then it needs to have a combination of talented youth and current stars.  The World Cup is not a development series.  I understand A1 wants to be, but having some stars would really help with TV ratings, race attendance, and sponsorship of the teams.  I want to see Michael Schumacher on Team Germany, Felipe Massa on Team Brazil.  I think a lot of the world does, too.

I know, I know.  There are big issues.  Contractual preventions, whether it be not allowed to race any other series for any other team or conflicting sponsors are a hinderance.  Winter testing commitments are a bit of a hassle, too.

And maybe a World Cup of Motorsports isn't necessary.  There's a lot of nationalism in F1 as it is, even if drivers aren't racing in their country's colors.  But for me, I kind of would like to see a bit of a gathering of the best drivers in the world racing for their country.  Maybe A1GP should be more than single seaters.  Maybe it should have open wheel, sports cars, rally cars, motorcycles, stock cars, etc, to see what country has the most diverse talents in racing drivers and riders.  For Team USA, you could have Scott Speed, Graham Rahal, Marco Andretti, or John Summerton in open wheel, Alex Gurney, Colin Braun, Jon Fogarty, Ron Fellows, Boris Said, or Butch Leightziner in sports cars, Travis Pastrana in rally cars, Nicky Hayden or John Hopkins on motorcycles, and Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Jimmie Johnson, or Dale Earnhardt, Jr in stock cars.  It could be a true all-star event of motorsports.

I think the product A1 puts out now is good racing and all, but for some reason the business isn't there.  If there was a star-studded field of drivers representing their nation during the racing off-season in a variety of racecars, I think that the business could really improve.  But for now, World Cup of Motorsports is a useless phrase.  Nur Ali, Alex Yoong, Cheng Congfu, etc just aren't World Cup drivers.

[DOF_power]

That won't happen. GP/F1 is the World Cup of motor-sport and it won't be knocked of.
A1 "GP" is what it is and nothing more.

[Eric]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 17 2007, 09:58 AM, said:

That won't happen. GP/F1 is the World Cup of motor-sport and it won't be knocked of.
A1 "GP" is what it is and nothing more.

Of course it won't happen.  It's my opinion of what should happen, not what will happen.

A1GP advertises itself as the World Cup of motorsport, and I think it could live up to that name if it made changes similar to mine.

And F1 isn't the World Cup of motorsport.  F1 is not the pinncale.  Not at all.  At the moment, there is no pinnacle of motorsport, and there doesn't need to be.  Nothing can reach perfection, but F1's flaws are too hefty to keep it at the pinncale.  The pinnacle does not have TC, or grooved tires, or anything similar.

Of course, there can't even be a pinnacle ever, because it is a matter of opinion.  You might think F1 is the pinnacle, I might think capybaras racing on a hockey rink is the pinnacle, and some guy in a bar in South Carolina might say NASCAR is the pinnacle.

Personally, I think the pinnacle could well be CART from the late 80s and the early 90s.

-Eric

Edited by Eric, 17 July 2007 - 02:37 PM.

[DOF_power]

I don't see the problem with TC, but I agree about groves.

That again pre WWII GP races and F1 races of the 1950 and 1960s were held on groves.

So does this make Nuvolari, Caracciola, Rosemeyer, Fangio, Ascari, Clark bad drivers ?!


CART Indycar races were not the pinnacle.
When Mansell came after winning his WDC in an active-ride he had no problem winning the CART Indycar
series. And ofcourse Mansell rivals were Mario Andretti and E. Fittipaldi old F1 boys themselves.
On the other hand Michael Andretti on the active-ride McLaren MP4/8 (on witch Senna won 5 races that year) only managed to spin and crash.
So Andretti's car only had TC, LC, active suspension, semi-automatic paddle transmission and the list goes on, and didn't managed to do squat.

And ofcourse no need to mention that those CART Indycar cars were sort of copies of GP/F1 cars. Let's see mid-engine layout, monocoque, carbon fibre, independent suspensions ... etc ...
Were did they came from ?!

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW, 17 July 2007 - 07:07 PM.

[Eric]

The idea of running grands prix on road courses, street circuits, and ovals to me seemend pinnacle-ish.

[DOF_power]

And other than that what exactly ?!

Back on A1 "GP", the series is ratified and regulated by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA). And that means it is slotted bellow F1, just as every other sport ratified and regulated by the FIA. For they won't allow anything to touch their precious F1.

[Eric]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 17 2007, 02:57 PM, said:

CART Indycar races were not the pinnacle.
When Mansell came after winning his WDC in an active-ride he had no problem winning the CART Indycar
series. And ofcourse Mansell rivals were Mario Andretti and E. Fittipaldi old F1 boys themselves.
On the other hand Michael Andretti on the active-ride McLaren MP4/8 (on witch Senna won 5 races that year) only managed to spin and crash.
So Andretti's car only had TC, LC, active suspension, semi-automatic paddle transmission and the list goes on, and didn't managed to do squat.

Alright, well, under your logic, if a driver from another series goes and struggles, such as Andretti to F1, the series the struggle in is greater.  So NASCAR is therefore the pinnacle of motorsports.  Juan Pablo Montoya won at Monaco and won numerous other races and was a great overtaker, yet he struggles in NASCAR, so NASCAR is greater than F1.  Furthermore, under your logic NASCAR is also greater than Champ Car, where Allmendinger won 5 races in one season and now can't even make the races in NEXTEL Cup.

Furthermore, JPM came from a CART championship and faired well in F1, so it's all meaningless.  Every type of racing really requires a different type of talent.  No one can succeed in all forms.

As for the FIA, I thought they dropped the series.  Even if they didn't, they should drop the World Cup of Motorsport name if F1/Grand Prix is their real World Cup.

[DOF_power]

Eric, on Jul 17 2007, 11:54 PM, said:

Alright, well, under your logic, if a driver from another series goes and struggles, such as Andretti to F1, the series the struggle in is greater.  So NASCAR is therefore the pinnacle of motorsports.  Juan Pablo Montoya won at Monaco and won numerous other races and was a great overtaker, yet he struggles in NASCAR, so NASCAR is greater than F1.  Furthermore, under your logic NASCAR is also greater than Champ Car, where Allmendinger won 5 races in one season and now can't even make the races in NEXTEL Cup.

Furthermore, JPM came from a CART championship and faired well in F1, so it's all meaningless.  Every type of racing really requires a different type of talent.  No one can succeed in all forms.

As for the FIA, I thought they dropped the series.  Even if they didn't, they should drop the World Cup of Motorsport name if F1/Grand Prix is their real World Cup.

JPM is/was too arongant and lazy, that's why didn't do much in F1.
In NASCAR, his main problem is that he's driving a "Dodge" Ganassi instead of a "Chevy" Hendricks Motorsport car.

Allmendinger who ?!

I do belive that road course and ovals/banked-combined should return to GP/F1.
F1 is the pinnacle. Unfortunately until somebody get's killed people won't belive that.

[SuperKimi]

And we don't want that.

Wait a second you want a retired F1 driver to go in to A1GP. That will never happen.

I don't want F1 to return to ovals and street circuits because street circuits have no overtaking and is just a parade and ovals are far to dangerous for F1

Why do we need ovals when we have super safe with mile long run of area and lots of overtaking whilst high speed do we need ovals? We don't. Simple as that.

[Eric]

SuperKimi, on Jul 19 2007, 03:17 PM, said:

And we don't want that.

Wait a second you want a retired F1 driver to go in to A1GP. That will never happen.

I don't want F1 to return to ovals and street circuits because street circuits have no overtaking and is just a parade and ovals are far to dangerous for F1

Why do we need ovals when we have super safe with mile long run of area and lots of overtaking whilst high speed do we need ovals? We don't. Simple as that.

Siiigh.  Ignorance prevails once more.

I want all F1 drivers to race in A1GP and race in F1.  I never said it would happen, take the time to read the post, I'm offering my views on what I would do to change the sport, not what I think is going to happen.  What I tihnk should happen.  I don't give a s##t that none of this will happen, it was to start discussion, not to be "this can't happen."

But the real ignorance is in the last part.  I never said I wanted F1 to return to ovals and street cirucits.  Ovals are not too dangerous.  Yes, they are dangerous in IndyCar, but IndyCar does not have the same safety featurs as an F1 car would.  Furthermore, I was talking about CART and not F1.  I liked CART because of its variety.

Furthermore, with the right car you can overtake on street circuits.  Monaco is just a s##tty circuit and F1 cars are s##tty for overtaking.  Bad combo.

The mile long run-off area is bad.  It take so much driver skill away.  You can make so many errors and still correct yourself and score points.  That's not the so-called pinnacle.

Lots of overtaking?  Crack is whack, man.  Get off that stuff.  There's like no overtaking in F1, besides sometimes in mid-pack.  Maaan.

Take the time to actually read and comprehend wtf I was saying, man.  You seemed to get it all wrong.

[DOF_power]

If you'll take away the area than:


a ) accidents will become Kubica style,
b ) and with no room for a car to retire, the race will go from yellow flag to safety car until the track is cleared
c ) potentially in "a" type scenario, the pieces left behind on the track will damage someone else's car (just like it happened in Canada)


In my language we don't even call this run off areas, but roughly translated evacuation zone.

Edited by DOF_Renault_BMW, 20 July 2007 - 02:19 PM.

[Eric]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 20 2007, 10:19 AM, said:

If you'll take away the area than:


a ) accidents will become Kubica style,
b ) and with no room for a car to retire, the race will go from yellow flag to safety car until the track is cleared
c ) potentially in "a" type scenario, the pieces left behind on the track will damage someone else's car (just like it happened in Canada)


In my language we don't even call this run off areas, but roughly translated evacuation zone.

Let me clarify: I want gravel traps instead of paved runoff room.  Maybe it's less safe or whatever, but then there's no room for error and it forces the drivers to be the best 22 (soon to be 24) drivers in the world.  Furthermore, the pavement is so that you can correct a mistake and not hit the wall.  But what if a driver hits something else and goes unconcious?  He or she won't be able to correct a mistake and will just fly into the wall (yes, I do realize, most tracks have some gravel after the pavement, but still, all gravel could prevent even hitting the wall)

And whoever says having 1 or 2 safety cars is a bad thing is an idiot.  In modern day F1, it's the only thing that tightens up the field and gives anyone a chance to overtake beyond the first lap/corner.

[DOF_power]

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way.


Many of of accidents/incidents involve either:

- overtaking maneuvres
- avoiding collisions (in case of massive pile up)
- cornering exits witch have more to do with the car's setup failure (as these happen mostly in pre-quals) than driver mistakes.


And those "enclosed" circuits of the past didn't forced the drivers to be the best as much as it injured and killed them.

And thank goodness for the situation of today. Just think about it, had Schumacher's accident have happened in Montreal, at that speed, he might have been killed. And I don't want that, or another Rubens Imola 94 type of "landing"/accident.


The situation is actually pretty good these days in this area. As long as they don't add Mickey Mouse corners, than I'll take these evacuation zones any time.

As for overtaking, there is overtaking beyond the first lap/corner. Just that it is in the mid filed pack.



BTW the INDYCAR WORLD SERIES will NOT = WORLD DOMINATION.

[Eric]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 20 2007, 11:31 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I don't see it that way.


Many of of accidents/incidents involve either:

- overtaking maneuvres
- avoiding collisions (in case of massive pile up)
- cornering exits witch have more to do with the car's setup failure (as these happen mostly in pre-quals) than driver mistakes.


And those "enclosed" circuits of the past didn't forced the drivers to be the best as much as it injured and killed them.

And thank goodness for the situation of today. Just think about it, had Schumacher's accident have happened in Montreal, at that speed, he might have been killed. And I don't want that, or another Rubens Imola 94 type of "landing"/accident.


The situation is actually pretty good these days in this area. As long as they don't add Mickey Mouse corners, than I'll take these evacuation zones any time.

As for overtaking, there is overtaking beyond the first lap/corner. Just that it is in the mid filed pack.



BTW the INDYCAR WORLD SERIES will NOT = WORLD DOMINATION.

Pssh, yeah it does, in my fantasy world where the IndyCar World Series would be perfect.  If you just stuck CCWS and IRL together at the current state, it would just be closer to NASCAR.  But I can still dream.

I know the overtaking is in mid field.  And to be honest, I don't give a s##t.  It's fun to watch and all, but I want overtaking where it actually matters for points and wins.  The only time I've seen an actual battle for the lead beyond the first lap/corner since I began watching in Bahrain 2006 was Indy 2007.

[SuperKimi]

I agree more with DOF-Renault-BMW here.

I'd rather have huge saftey areas than barriers millimetres away.

I think what you're saying is that it doesn't matter about saftey, you'd rather see cars falling off into the gravel and not recovering rather than cars saving it from a moment and getting back on the track and fighting they're way back through the pack.

[Eric]

SuperKimi, on Jul 20 2007, 01:31 PM, said:

I'd rather have huge saftey areas than barriers millimetres away.

I think what you're saying is that it doesn't matter about saftey, you'd rather see cars falling off into the gravel and not recovering rather than cars saving it from a moment and getting back on the track and fighting they're way back through the pack.

Again, read my post.  I said gravel traps, not barriers right against the track.

I think safety does matter.  Gravel traps are safe.  And fighting back through the pack doesn't happen because when you go off on the pavement, you only lose 1 or 2 spots.  Big deal.

[DOF_power]

Eric, on Jul 20 2007, 06:38 PM, said:

Pssh, yeah it does, in my fantasy world where the IndyCar World Series would be perfect.  If you just stuck CCWS and IRL together at the current state, it would just be closer to NASCAR.  But I can still dream.

But that's just it. It was never intended as multi-national/international/global racing series. In it's hey day, it was an american local alternative to GP/F1 racing.

Quote

I know the overtaking is in mid field.  And to be honest, I don't give a s##t.  It's fun to watch and all, but I want overtaking where it actually matters for points and wins.  The only time I've seen an actual battle for the lead beyond the first lap/corner since I began watching in Bahrain 2006 was Indy 2007.

But for that we need a better/clean aero solution (like ground effects aand/or it's succesor active suspension system) and more mecanical grip. Push to pass could also help (at least limited to street circuits).
It has nothing to do with gravel traps.

[Eric]

Never argue with idiots.  They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you by experience.  

So I will refrain.

Obviously F1 is God and there is no way to possibly try to make another series more enjoyable or try to make changes to F1 that are the slightest bit different then what anyone else thinks.  My bad.  Well, it's off to special ed classes for me, the short bus is about to leave.  Oops, I just made poopies.  I'll go get my mommy to fix that.

[DOF_power]

Eric, on Jul 20 2007, 10:56 PM, said:

Never argue with idiots.  They'll bring you down to their level and then beat you by experience.  

Well thank you very much.

Quote

So I will refrain.

Obviously F1 is God and there is no way to possibly try to make another series more enjoyable or try to make changes to F1 that are the slightest bit different then what anyone else thinks.  My bad.  Well, it's off to special ed classes for me, the short bus is about to leave.  Oops, I just made poopies.  I'll go get my mommy to fix that.

No problem with making F1 and other series more enjoyable.
Just that the aproach/proposition are highly questionable.
GP/F1 is the succesor to the Gordon Bennett Cup and therefor THE international racing series. Everything else is welcome, behind it.
World domination is reserved to GP/F1 racing.

[Eric]

DOF_Renault_BMW, on Jul 20 2007, 05:02 PM, said:

Well thank you very much.

No problem with making F1 and other series more enjoyable.
Just that the aproach/proposition are highly questionable.
GP/F1 is the succesor to the Gordon Bennett Cup and therefor THE international racing series. Everything else is welcome, behind it.
World domination is reserved to GP/F1 racing.

You're very welcome, buddy!

World domination for F1 is tradition.  **** tradition.  Whatever is doing the best gets to be the best.  Everything breaks from tradition.

[DOF_power]

I don't see anything braking.

[Eric]

No, not at the moment.  But I'm saying that if something were to become a threat in the future and could overtake F1, I would love to see that happen.  Nothing deserves to be first forever, no matter what it did in its past.

[DOF_power]

So who would be this threat ?!

Americans aren't really good at international/global sports. America's an island, and its sports aren't of interest to the world.

[Eric]

I don't know.  The series might not exist yet.  Maybe it already does.  I don't predict the future.