20 replies to this topic

[f1reviews]

I have seen other Senna's fans in here.
So I think you will find this article  nice to read.

Edited by f1reviews, 03 September 2007 - 05:02 PM.

[goferrarigo]

link doesn't work....

[f1reviews]

It does now.
Sorry for that. I have edited the post.

[goferrarigo]

f1reviews, on Sep 3 2007, 12:02 PM, said:

It does now.
Sorry for that. I have edited the post.

Ok Thanks...

[Wez]

f1reviews, on Sep 3 2007, 02:47 PM, said:

I have seen other Senna's fans in here.
So I think you will find this article  nice to read.

Brilliant mate!

[V12]

well if his the last F1 Hero and i'm not denying that he isn't because i never really saw him race tbh.But what would that make Michael Schumacher? or Mika Hakkinen? or JV? OR Kimi? or Fernando? or Lewis? or Hill? or Mark Webber?

Edited by V12, 04 September 2007 - 09:57 AM.

[f1reviews]

V12, on Sep 4 2007, 12:45 PM, said:

well if his the last F1 Hero and i'm not denying that he isn't because i never really saw him race tbh.But what would that make Michael Schumacher? or Mika Hakkinen? or JV? OR Kimi? or Fernando? or Lewis? or Hill? or Mark Webber?

I didn't say that Michael, or Mika are bad drivers. Ayrton was just on another level. Don't forget that schumacher didn't have to face any of the great drivers of the past to get on top. He was just the best of his generation.
Ayrton became the best, while facing "holy monsters", like Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Mansel, to name a few. Note that all these have won world championships. And there are others also. Senna bit them in track. If you have seen Monaco 1984 you will understand what I am talking about. It's a race I suggest every F1 and Senna fan should watch. (along with Brazil 1991, 1993, and Donnington 1993).

[Argento Reloaded]

f1reviews, on Sep 4 2007, 07:41 AM, said:

I didn't say that Michael, or Mika are bad drivers. Ayrton was just on another level. Don't forget that schumacher didn't have to face any of the great drivers of the past to get on top. He was just the best of his generation.
Ayrton became the best, while facing "holy monsters", like Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Mansel, to name a few. Note that all these have won world championships. And there are others also. Senna bit them in track. If you have seen Monaco 1984 you will understand what I am talking about. It's a race I suggest every F1 and Senna fan should watch. (along with Brazil 1991, 1993, and Donnington 1993).

Alain Prost was better. If you like to see Monaco 1984 then see Stefan Belof he drove better than Senna and by the time the race was interrupted he was the fastest man on track. period. Brazil 1993: one of the biggest storms in F1 history hit Interlagos and when started to rain Prost find at bend 1 a car stopped and he didn´t manage to avoid it; while Senna far behind was out of track with his four wheels on the grass and managed back to track. And If you like senna you remember one how smart he was on spain 1989...
Senna was one of those few talented drivers that were better of most of their competitors like MS, Alain Prost, Jochen Rindt, Fangio, Ascari, Jackie Stewart and Jim Clark. All other driver on F1 history were a step behind. But, for me Senna had many flaws as a driver always wanting to go faster than his car; very good for the tiffosi but not for the team/car. And above all he was one of most unsportman driver in F1 history!

Edited by Argento, 04 September 2007 - 03:15 PM.

[f1reviews]

Argento, on Sep 4 2007, 06:01 PM, said:

Alain Prost was better. If you like to see Monaco 1984 then see Stefan Belof he drove better than Senna and by the time the race was interrupted he was the fastest man on track. period. Brazil 1993: one of the biggest storms in F1 history hit Interlagos and when started to rain Prost find at bend 1 a car stopped and he didn´t manage to avoid it; while Senna far behind was out of track with his four wheels on the grass and managed back to track. And If you like senna you remember one how smart he was on spain 1989...
Senna was one of those few talented drivers that were better of most of their competitors like MS, Alain Prost, Jochen Rindt, Fangio, Ascari, Jackie Stewart and Jim Clark. All other driver on F1 history were a step behind. But, for me Senna had many flaws as a driver always wanting to go faster than his car; very good for the tiffosi but not for the team/car. And above all he was one of most unsportman driver in F1 history!

Stefan Belof was great indeed. He would become a great driver but he tragically lost his life before achieving that. But you can't ignore the fact that Ayrton passed someone called "Niki Lauda", in Monaco.
And do you remember Senna running with Toleman, while Prost-Lauda were running with the mighty McLaren of 1984, a car that was by far the best that year. And after Lauda, Senna was closing up on Prost at a pace of up to 7sec per lap.
As for Brazil 1993, do you remember Senna overtaking Damon Hill, from the wet side of the track, on slick tyres? Again with a car that was far behind the Williams of that season.
What do you have to say about Donington 1993? When Prost was confused with all that rain and didn't know what tyres to put on? When Senna passed 4 drivers within a few turns of the first lap? (Prost, Hill, Schumacher and Wedliger).
Or should I mention Monaco 1988 when Senna was 2.5 sec quicker than Prost during qualification, with an identical car? (Prost's car was actually more powerful by 4-5HP).
Do you also remember Suzuka 1989 when Prost drove both his and Ayrton's cars out of the track, as this was the only way to win the championship? Was this Fair play? Don't think so.
And another Fair play update: Belgium 1992. Remember?
Prost was good also, great driver, but not even close enough to Ayrton.
I don't mean to argue here, I am just presenting some facts.
Please post your comments on them.
Thanks.

Edited by f1reviews, 04 September 2007 - 05:19 PM.

[tifosi too!]

f1reviews, on Sep 4 2007, 01:41 PM, said:

I didn't say that Michael, or Mika are bad drivers. Ayrton was just on another level. Don't forget that schumacher didn't have to face any of the great drivers of the past to get on top. He was just the best of his generation.
Ayrton became the best, while facing "holy monsters", like Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Mansel, to name a few. Note that all these have won world championships. And there are others also. Senna bit them in track. If you have seen Monaco 1984 you will understand what I am talking about. It's a race I suggest every F1 and Senna fan should watch. (along with Brazil 1991, 1993, and Donnington 1993).

MS did race against most of the drivers you mention! However I totally agree on Ayrton. In my mind he was perhaps an unbelievably commited and professional driver as well, something drivers back then lacked compared to today's drivers.I 'm not sure Ayrton would stand out as much these days as back then. Of course maybe he would have been a step ahead once more. Sadly we 'll never know.

[Argento Reloaded]

f1reviews, on Sep 4 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

Stefan Belof was great indeed. He would become a great driver but he tragically lost his life before achieving that. But you can't ignore the fact that Ayrton passed someone called "Niki Lauda", in Monaco.
And do you remember Senna running with Toleman, while Prost-Lauda were running with the mighty McLaren of 1984, a car that was by far the best that year. And after Lauda, Senna was closing up on Prost at a pace of up to 7sec per lap.
As for Brazil 1993, do you remember Senna overtaking Damon Hill, from the wet side of the track, on slick tyres? Again with a car that was far behind the Williams of that season.
What do you have to say about Donington 1993? When Prost was confused with all that rain and didn't know what tyres to put on? When Senna passed 4 drivers within a few turns of the first lap? (Prost, Hill, Schumacher and Wedliger).
Or should I mention Monaco 1988 when Senna was 2.5 sec quicker than Prost during qualification, with an identical car? (Prost's car was actually more powerful by 4-5HP).
Do you also remember Suzuka 1989 when Prost drove both his and Ayrton's cars out of the track, as this was the only way to win the championship? Was this Fair play? Don't think so.
And another Fair play update: Belgium 1992. Remember?
Prost was good also, great driver, but not even close enough to Ayrton.
I don't mean to argue here, I am just presenting some facts.
Please post your comments on them.
Thanks.

I,ve already posted on a topic called Senna vs. Prost with great material and great opinions of almost any members -past and present-. we can argue all life and we can agree -mostly because Senna fans are similar to him pure instinct. Senna, Gilles, Jochen Rindt, Stefan Bellof and Jim Clark were the most talented drivers of the F1 history but they are all dead. Why because they never show respect for the old Fangio´s tale: "you must win driving as slow as posible" They thought more with they right foot than with they brain. on the other side Fangio, prost, Stewart, Michael Schumacher were less spectaculars but certainly most effective because they used to relay less on their instinct. I´m a little bored of "...everyday senna drives better..." syndrome. For me he is behind MSC, Alain Prost and Fangio on 4th place of my all time list. (On the 5th place comes Jim Clark).
On Senna´s and Prost side I can say they drove on the most competitive F1 of all time (I´m talking about drivers not cars) because 3 of the 4 most winners of all time (Senna, Prost and Mansell) and many other great drivers like Piquet, etc raced against each other.
As I said we can argue all life without an agreement. For you Senna, for me Prost and that´s the salt and pepper of our forums!!!

[V12]

f1reviews, on Sep 4 2007, 08:41 PM, said:

I didn't say that Michael, or Mika are bad drivers. Ayrton was just on another level. Don't forget that schumacher didn't have to face any of the great drivers of the past to get on top. He was just the best of his generation.
Ayrton became the best, while facing "holy monsters", like Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Mansel, to name a few. Note that all these have won world championships. And there are others also. Senna bit them in track. If you have seen Monaco 1984 you will understand what I am talking about. It's a race I suggest every F1 and Senna fan should watch. (along with Brazil 1991, 1993, and Donnington 1993).

no I'm not saying that at all that Michael or Mika or Mark Webber were bad drivers. You were idolising Ayrton Senna and his achievements and why shouldn't you ay. my point was that there have been other great drivers since Ayrton thats all. I'm not disagreering for a moment.BTW my hero is David Purley.

[f1reviews]

V12, on Sep 5 2007, 02:34 PM, said:

no I'm not saying that at all that Michael or Mika or Mark Webber were bad drivers. You were idolising Ayrton Senna and his achievements and why shouldn't you ay. my point was that there have been other great drivers since Ayrton thats all. I'm not disagreering for a moment.BTW my hero is David Purley.

Of course there have been other great drivers also. Before, during, and after the period Senna was racing.
I am preparing other articles also, about other drivers. Probably one on Gilles Villeneuve will be next.
And others will follow, about drivers of the past and present.
This article is just Senna's racing biography, with the addition of a tribute to him that I felt like writing.
Thank you for your opinion.
It's much appreciated.

[V12]

yeah it was a great read, i didn't mean to create a stink with you or anything ay.BTW you said you will profile other drivers would Mark Webber or Jean Alesi or David Purley be among them if you don't mind me askin?

Edited by V12, 06 September 2007 - 10:30 AM.

[f1reviews]

V12, on Sep 6 2007, 01:26 PM, said:

yeah it was a great read, i didn't mean to create a stink with you or anything ay.BTW you said you will profile other drivers would Mark Webber or Jean Alesi or David Purley be among them if you don't mind me askin?

My intention is to provide information about as many drivers as possible.
Hopefully there will be a time when you will be able to find all drivers' biographies on the site.
I have some writers working on it, but as you can understand, F1 has more than enough to write about (In addition to historical events and reviews, there are the current news running)...
We are working hard to provide a complete view of as many aspects of the sport as possible.
Anyway this is not where I speak about my site.
Thank you for reading the article and posting your comments.
I am glad you liked it, I hope I will be able to offer you more interesting content through time.

[V12]

nah good on ya mate it was a great read about Ayrton  and thank you for posting it.

[DOF_power]

>



^ Prost should have won in 1988, Senna should have won 1993.

Both were good in different ways.

Prost, the smoother guys, the car and tires preserver, was better suited for the pre 1991 passive cars. In fact only because of the stupid best out of 11 rule did he lost in 1988 to Senna. And with today's point system he would have also won the WDC in 1983, 1984 and 1988.

While Senna (and Mansell) with his "hard" trottle/spirited to-the-limit-and-over-it style worked at its best on the active ride cars.
That's why 1993 in the active-ride McLAren MP4-8 was his peak as a driver. He later downplayed Donington because his car had TC, active-suspensions, LC, semi-automatic paddle transmission, and all sorts of electronics from TAG. But that was true for the Williams Renaults too witch also had ABS and the considerably more powerfull and sofisticated Renault units. But is was still Senna that the difference and not the electronics.
By contrast that year Prost look too much asleep (IMO), in that "little Airbus", as he called the Williams FW15C Renault.

[f1reviews]

Alain -the professor- Prost, was indeed spectacular in calculating things, tyres, fuel supplies and stuff. But Senna was a lot faster and I think he had proven this even before the electronics, and active cars era. He had the charisma to discover the limits of every car he was driving. They were both great in different aspects of the sport, but the difference was that Senna was racing to be THE FASTEST, while Prost was racing to cross the line first. Of course Prost's strategy gave him more titles and victories, but as an athlete myself I know that the main target for an athlete is to be the best, and not necessarily the most succesfull. Senna proved this and he proved it even while driving inferior cars.
Just my opinion. Thanks.

[Rainmaster]

Nice thread f1reviews, I share some of your opinions on Senna/Prost.

I would say it depends on how you define 'greatness' - for me, it is the driver who produces the most on track entertaiment (from a fan viewpoint this is what f1 is about) whilst being successful. That's why for me Senna is undoubtably the greatest ever, whether he is the best ever is a different matter entirely in my opinion. Drivers like Gilles, Rindt, Senna I think will be remembered better than drivers like Lauda, Prost and Stewart because their attitude to racing and the way they drove.

For me Fangio, Clark, Senna and Schumacher are the drivers that showed themselves to be (undeniably) the best of their generation in one way or another, so one of them must be the best ever.

[Sajfo]

Ok,I agree,he didn't face Senna,Prost;Nelsen and others(Talki about M.Schu),but Senna didn't face alonso,Hakkinen(not in good car),Hamilton;massa;kimi.. SO u can't compare.. Ok,I agree,Senna had smt special,when u looked at him,u can saw the fire in him,the generous and kond man,true man who loves racing,it's his life(remember,he didn't have to drive Imola 94,should have gonne fishin with Steve Watkins,but this would'nt be Senna,to quit). But,we can't denny Schumacher is a great driver,he got what it takes to win and be ready to do anything to win(94 and 97) and that is what makes him good.. I didn't personaly like him,and I don't like Ferrari or Mclaren,but,lets face it,he mybe didn't race Fangio,Prost;lauda or Senna,but he has the record in pole position(233 race he beat Sennas 63 or 65 pole witch Senna set in 163 races,i think),the record in winning races and i think in 2nd place(or D.Hill,not sure yet),13 wins in one Championship(he beat 2004 his own record of 11 winsand he won 7GP.. If that doesn't tell u he is the one of legends,then I don't know.. But still,I agree,Senna was and stays the best,he is my hero..

[medilloni]

Argento, on Sep 5 2007, 12:19 AM, said:

I,ve already posted on a topic called Senna vs. Prost with great material and great opinions of almost any members -past and present-. we can argue all life and we can agree -mostly because Senna fans are similar to him pure instinct. Senna, Gilles, Jochen Rindt, Stefan Bellof and Jim Clark were the most talented drivers of the F1 history but they are all dead. Why because they never show respect for the old Fangio´s tale: "you must win driving as slow as posible" They thought more with they right foot than with they brain. on the other side Fangio, prost, Stewart, Michael Schumacher were less spectaculars but certainly most effective because they used to relay less on their instinct. I´m a little bored of "...everyday senna drives better..." syndrome. For me he is behind MSC, Alain Prost and Fangio on 4th place of my all time list. (On the 5th place comes Jim Clark).
On Senna´s and Prost side I can say they drove on the most competitive F1 of all time (I´m talking about drivers not cars) because 3 of the 4 most winners of all time (Senna, Prost and Mansell) and many other great drivers like Piquet, etc raced against each other.
As I said we can argue all life without an agreement. For you Senna, for me Prost and that´s the salt and pepper of our forums!!!

Enjoyable posts from you both Argento and F1Reviews, but as my childhood heroes, I have to defend the bit in bold (above).  They didn't all die as a result of their ability - or right foot - the cause of Jim Clark's death (went off on the straight) was later put down to a puncture or suspension failure, Jochen Rindt through a front brake shaft failure - turning him sharply off the track.  The loss of Ayrton Senna is 99% certain to be car failure too.

Jack Brabham said something similar to Fangio too, "Always win by the smallest possible marging - it makes your opponent feel good!"

Discussions on who is best will always be subjective - my list of 'The Greatest' include the above and others too, but honestly, if F1 had claimed the lives of Prost, Mansell, Schumacher I think discussions here and elsewhere would be different - I hate to say this, but once a driver is gone it's easy (and understandable) to put them on the 'icon' pedestal.

As you rightly say Argento, the Salt and Pepper of our forums   But really, for me they're all great (all of those mentioned so far) - my personal definition is more to do with how they went to the top of their sport in their time.  

Y'know it's strange really, there are many, many examples of great drives by good drivers - David Purley, Peter Gethin, Elio De Angelis, Ronnie Peterson, Pironi and more.  So is the true 'Great' one that strung great drives together for long enough?  Who knows.........

*Edited after a couple of Sam Miguel: Rainmaster, I'd go with that.............

"the most on track entertaiment (from a fan viewpoint this is what f1 is about) whilst being successful. That's why for me Senna is undoubtably the greatest ever, whether he is the best ever is a different matter entirely in my opinion. Drivers like Gilles, Rindt, Senna I think will be remembered better than drivers like Lauda, Prost and Stewart because their attitude to racing and the way they drove."

Senna is one of the most disputed 'Greats', perhaps due to some of his naughtier moments, but thte guy wore his heart on his sleeve - maybe his biggest downfall, and yes he was coniving too.  But surely drivers with this spirit are missed by some of us?  

And I don't mean those that use the press to drive this home

Edited by medilloni, 23 September 2007 - 10:42 PM.