Deadly London

[Max Mosley 2]

That's bollocks, Russ. He merely disagreed with what Chris had written and then went on to agree with it.

[monza gorilla 1]

That's bollocks, Russ. He merely disagreed with what Chris had written and then went on to agree with it.

Ah. I should have spotted that.

[AutoRacer5 0]

That's bollocks, Russ. He merely disagreed with what Chris had written and then went on to agree with it.

I think he might want to take a look at this:

[Rainmaster 7]

Just as any other argument placed in this forum...!

Its a TF1 forum trademark.

I thought talking bollocks was the main trademark, that's what I've been going for..

[AutoRacer5 0]

Oh dear. You americans are so gun happy! At least you get a little exercise when stabbing someone, as you have to use more than a finger to kill that person! Probably why americans are so fat. Plus being knifed to death is a far more exciting way to die as it takes longer usually! We brits as always know best!

Oh yeah. If Brits know best, then why are you leaving the UK, if they know best?

[Jenson_Rules 0]

Oh yeah. If Brits know best, then why are you leaving the UK, if they know best?

Just because we Brits know that stabbing is a more enjoyable past time than shooting, and healthier too, doesn't mean I like living here.

[B.P. 0]

Murders happen all over the world. It doesn't matter how the murder is performed, they're all wrong!!!

[AutoRacer5 0]

Murders happen all over the world. It doesn't matter how the murder is performed, they're all wrong!!!

Intruder comes into my house. I know not his intentions. His death is justifiable.

[Quiet One 15]

Intruder comes into my house. I know not his intentions. His death is justifiable.

You want to have a weapon just to shoot whoever might intrude in your house based on the worst case possible you can imagine. You are paranoid and armed. Therefore, your death is also justifiable by other paranoid, armed persons.

But you won't understand. You just love having a gun because everybody out there is willing to rape your family and kill you. Other nations are willing to attack and destroy your wonderful country, or steal your jobs. Scientists lie about the enviroment because they don't want you to ride those expensive cars.

What a wonderful life!

[AutoRacer5 0]

You want to have a weapon just to shoot whoever might intrude in your house based on the worst case possible you can imagine. You are paranoid and armed. Therefore, your death is also justifiable by other paranoid, armed persons.

But you won't understand. You just love having a gun because everybody out there is willing to rape your family and kill you. Other nations are willing to attack and destroy your wonderful country, or steal your jobs. Scientists lie about the enviroment because they don't want you to ride those expensive cars.

What a wonderful life!

I am not armed yet. And no, its not justifiable. He's breaking into MY HOUSE.

And You don't understand. What will you do if someone breaks into your house at night? What will you defend your family with? A tennis racket?

[Quiet One 15]

I am not armed yet. And no, its not justifiable. He's breaking into MY HOUSE.

And You don't understand. What will you do if someone breaks into your house at night? What will you defend your family with? A tennis racket?

I will have to, because I have no weapons. Not even a tennis racket. Even though crime is rampant here, and probably higher than where you live, unless you live in Washington D.C. or some place like that.

What if somebody attacks you outside your house? You don't have the right to defend yourself?

[AutoRacer5 0]

I will have to, because I have no weapons. Not even a tennis racket. Even though crime is rampant here, and probably higher than where you live, unless you live in Washington D.C. or some place like that.

What if somebody attacks you outside your house? You don't have the right to defend yourself?

Oh I do have the right to defend myself. I just haven't had the opportunity.

And I live outside New Orleans, for reference.

[Quiet One 15]

Oh I do have the right to defend myself. I just haven't had the opportunity.

And I live outside New Orleans, for reference.

I have no idea how is it like outside New Orleans (out of topic: I would very much know how it is...always wanted to visit Lousiana).

So, you have the right to defende yourself outside your house. That makes sense. You will have to carry a gun, as the bad guys will be as bad outside your house as they would be inside. Now, how and when you will be justified to shoot somebody in the streets? If you want to defend your family, you can't wait until they pull out the gun and take the first shot, right?

Ok, another example: how far would you go to defend your family? We know you would kill whoever trespasses your property. Now, let's say your family is starving. I don't know why, maybe the company you worked for closed. You can't let them die of starvation. And you have a gun. How far would you go? Maybe you are not starving, but those guys across the street are really annoying. They are drugged all the time and your blossoming young daughter has to walk near them. Some of them tell her a dirty thing. What would you do?

Just for the record, I am not mocking you. I am trying to reason in my own convoluted way. I am trying for you to see my point of view, that's all.

[AutoRacer5 0]

I have no idea how is it like outside New Orleans (out of topic: I would very much know how it is...always wanted to visit Lousiana).

So, you have the right to defende yourself outside your house. That makes sense. You will have to carry a gun, as the bad guys will be as bad outside your house as they would be inside. Now, how and when you will be justified to shoot somebody in the streets? If you want to defend your family, you can't wait until they pull out the gun and take the first shot, right?

Ok, another example: how far would you go to defend your family? We know you would kill whoever trespasses your property. Now, let's say your family is starving. I don't know why, maybe the company you worked for closed. You can't let them die of starvation. And you have a gun. How far would you go? Maybe you are not starving, but those guys across the street are really annoying. They are drugged all the time and your blossoming young daughter has to walk near them. Some of them tell her a dirty thing. What would you do?

Just for the record, I am not mocking you. I am trying to reason in my own convoluted way. I am trying for you to see my point of view, that's all.

I get another job. That's what I do. And the drugged ones stay on their property, it's out of my control.

I will be justified if I am assaulted.

[AleHop 0]

I don't know what the problem is in other countries but in Spain we have a serious problem because of a far too soft legal punishment for most of the crimes and criminals. Many dangerous criminals are well known for the police but they are still free. Some of them have gone to jail but very soon later raped, robbed or killed people during a weekend leave. Policemen get quite disappointed when they work hard to bring a criminal before the judge ang then he gets away with it. It is not ver motivating for our policemen for sure. A few policemen here are just criminals on the side of the law, they are few but it doesn't help. Most of the violent crimes in spain are commited by immigrants but it is just part of the problem, they know about our weak law and most of the immigrants suffer that violence as much as the rest of us.

Then we have violence growing every day in schools...

Ok, I'll leave it there.

[Max Mosley 2]

Most of the violent crimes in spain are commited by immigrants

I won't say a thing.

[cavallino 2]

I won't say a thing.

Most of the violent crimes in spain are commited by (paid) Alonso fans

[Quiet One 15]

I get another job. That's what I do. And the drugged ones stay on their property, it's out of my control.

I will be justified if I am assaulted.

You can't get another job. I am talking about a limit situation. Just like you and the guns. Not every person that walks into your house wants to kill, maim and rape, right?

What I am talking about is where are the limits, and who sets them. I can perfectly see a limit situation where I would like to have a gun and shoot them down. Geez, I hate enough to kill a bus driver who stops in the middle of the street blocking all traffic in rush hour! The problem is: guns kill, you might have guessed it. And killed is irrevocable. You might have guessed that, too. Once you get a gun, you have power of life and death over other people. Yes, yes, you could kill with a pork chop, with enough time, cold blood and patience. But with a gun is just squeeze, bam, done. Now, we live in a society. Who decides who has to kill or not? You? Let's say someone breaks into your house and you kill him. You decided that you and your family was at enough risk to shoot a man. Were they? How many criminals that "deserve to die" are killed by people with guns in their house? How many crimes are commited by those same people? Bigger picture is usually more complicated than individual situations.

Damn english, I know what I want to say, but it comes out all confusing.

[Rainmaster 7]

You can't get another job. I am talking about a limit situation. Just like you and the guns. Not every person that walks into your house wants to kill, maim and rape, right?

What I am talking about is where are the limits, and who sets them. I can perfectly see a limit situation where I would like to have a gun and shoot them down. Geez, I hate enough to kill a bus driver who stops in the middle of the street blocking all traffic in rush hour! The problem is: guns kill, you might have guessed it. And killed is irrevocable. You might have guessed that, too. Once you get a gun, you have power of life and death over other people. Yes, yes, you could kill with a pork chop, with enough time, cold blood and patience. But with a gun is just squeeze, bam, done. Now, we live in a society. Who decides who has to kill or not? You? Let's say someone breaks into your house and you kill him. You decided that you and your family was at enough risk to shoot a man. Were they? How many criminals that "deserve to die" are killed by people with guns in their house? How many crimes are commited by those same people? Bigger picture is usually more complicated than individual situations.

Damn english, I know what I want to say, but it comes out all confusing.

In that case I'd really hate to argue with you in your own language!

[AleHop 0]

I won't say a thing.

Is it not politically correct?

Most of the violent crimes in spain are commited by (paid) Alonso fans

No, we're not that many.

But the most violent crimes are commited by us.

[james 0]

Those stats from New Zealand were quite interesting. But as has been said the stats are already hard enough to compare without complicating variables introduced by a third party. I would have liked to compare further by breaking down into individual crimes, but I haven't been able to find any straight solid numbers for the U.K. I guess we'll have to leave it at, you thinking America has uncontrollable amounts of violence, while Britain is nicely civilized, and me thinking that the differences are nowhere near as far as you think.

[Max Mosley 2]

Those stats from New Zealand were quite interesting. But as has been said the stats are already hard enough to compare without complicating variables introduced by a third party. I would have liked to compare further by breaking down into individual crimes, but I haven't been able to find any straight solid numbers for the U.K. I guess we'll have to leave it at, you thinking America has uncontrollable amounts of violence, while Britain is nicely civilized, and me thinking that the differences are nowhere near as far as you think.

I never said you have uncontrollable amounts of violence, nor did I say that Britain is nicely civilised. In fact I said that (paraphrasing loosely from memory) "America has higher levels of violent crime than Britain, which it turn has higher levels than most other developed countries".

The stats from New Zealand are by far more reliable than the ones you provided. They are compiled by professionals, specifically to compare the violent crime rates in similar countries. There are no "complicating variables" involved - in fact several have been removed.

What really is silly though is the skewed perception Americans are given by their own culture and media. I really think Americans should take a long hard look at their media.

[james 0]

You can't get another job. I am talking about a limit situation. Just like you and the guns. Not every person that walks into your house wants to kill, maim and rape, right?

What I am talking about is where are the limits, and who sets them. I can perfectly see a limit situation where I would like to have a gun and shoot them down. Geez, I hate enough to kill a bus driver who stops in the middle of the street blocking all traffic in rush hour! The problem is: guns kill, you might have guessed it. And killed is irrevocable. You might have guessed that, too. Once you get a gun, you have power of life and death over other people. Yes, yes, you could kill with a pork chop, with enough time, cold blood and patience. But with a gun is just squeeze, bam, done. Now, we live in a society. Who decides who has to kill or not? You? Let's say someone breaks into your house and you kill him. You decided that you and your family was at enough risk to shoot a man. Were they? How many criminals that "deserve to die" are killed by people with guns in their house? How many crimes are commited by those same people? Bigger picture is usually more complicated than individual situations.

Damn english, I know what I want to say, but it comes out all confusing.

There are so many things wrong with the situations you have suggested. Apparently owning a gun makes person crazy with power. The checkered grip gives just the right amount of comfort while provided enough control for you to look down the sights at the face of your unsuspecting victim. You pull the trigger and admire your handi-work. Oh what a feeling, that of complete and utter dominance. Its intoxicating. Thats not at all the way it goes. I've been shooting since I was young enough to hold a rifle, and been hunting for since a couple of years after that. For some reason, you don't think that people as individuals have the capability to restrain themselves from doing things that they know are wrong.

Your side of the argument about people being able to defend their houses, lives, and families is one that I can't even begin to wrap my mind around. That house and everything in it are the fruits of that persons labor. Something they have earned the right to own. It is as much their own as the heart beating in their chest, and no one has the right to take it away from them. But there are those that will try. Its just the way things go. There are good people and there are bad people. When the good people are more afraid of the bad ones than the bad ones are of the good ones then there will be a problem. A gun is just a tool to protect those rights that I tend to believe are very important.

[james 0]

I never said you have uncontrollable amounts of violence, nor did I say that Britain is nicely civilised. In fact I said that (paraphrasing loosely from memory) "America has higher levels of violent crime than Britain, which it turn has higher levels than most other developed countries".

The stats from New Zealand are by far more reliable than the ones you provided. They are compiled by professionals, specifically to compare the violent crime rates in similar countries. There are no "complicating variables" involved - in fact several have been removed.

What really is silly though is the skewed perception Americans are given by their own culture and media. I really think Americans should take a long hard look at their media.

I was exaggerating a bit on our different sides of the issue.

I don't see how the New Zealand stats are more reliable than the ones I found. Mine were directly from the governments of the two nations in question. How can you get a more primary source than that. I would much rather see the raw data than have it analyzed by someone else.

I don't watch any sort of news. All the news that I do get is through various internet sources, some from outside the U.S. while others are from inside. And I agree with you, our media is quite bad.

[elgo 1]

I just can't understand the need to own a gun...how frequent is it in the US that someone enters in your house to steal/harm your family/kill you??Cause it's something I would never conceive here,and it's the main concern of most of the posters from US.