The Retire Dc Retire Thread

[cavallino 2]

Seriously, isn't this the most mediocre grid we have ever had for a long long time? The cull of experienced drivers hasn't really helped. Look at Nakajima, DC, Glock, Sutil, Fisichella, Piquet, Heidfeld. And Kimi struggling to beat Massa, Alonso not looking like the driver he once was. Kubeetza is the only driver who can be said to be at the top of his game right now, and perhaps Heikki.

How amateurish was Monaco qualifying and practice. There seems to be a dearth of driving skill, or maybe it's a generation brought up on driving aids, and underpowered cars.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Seriously, isn't this the most mediocre grid we have ever had for a long long time? The cull of experienced drivers hasn't really helped. Look at Nakajima, DC, Glock, Sutil, Fisichella, Piquet, Heidfeld. And Kimi struggling to beat Massa, Alonso not looking like the driver he once was. Kubeetza is the only driver who can be said to be at the top of his game right now, and perhaps Heikki.

How amateurish was Monaco qualifying and practice. There seems to be a dearth of driving skill, or maybe it's a generation brought up on driving aids, and underpowered cars.

Whats your point about Kimi struggling to beat Massa, Is'nt that what you wanted???? Micheal's predecessor doing something right, taking the fight to a genius of a driver. And all the other stuff you mention, it makes pretty much for entertaining afternoon, at least there's a little controversy ..

Stop being so negative Cav

[yurp 0]

Seriously, isn't this the most mediocre grid we have ever had for a long long time? The cull of experienced drivers hasn't really helped. Look at Nakajima, DC, Glock, Sutil, Fisichella, Piquet, Heidfeld. And Kimi struggling to beat Massa, Alonso not looking like the driver he once was. Kubeetza is the only driver who can be said to be at the top of his game right now, and perhaps Heikki.

How amateurish was Monaco qualifying and practice. There seems to be a dearth of driving skill, or maybe it's a generation brought up on driving aids, and underpowered cars.

I can take this 1 of 3 ways...

1) Am I to assume that you want even the backmarkers to be challenging for pole? (I mean you did have Sutil in there and he's hardly midfield material right now.)

If you think that that has happened any time in the last 50 years - then you're mistaken I'm afraid.

If that's what you want, then put all the drivers in identical cars, stifle development but have close racing - but then that's just not F1.

2) If, on the other hand, you're complaining about too much Ferrari dominence right now - then I partially agree, but that comes in waves - first one team dominates for a couple of years, then another - the best seasons are those when one dominant team is falling back and a couple of others are fighting to become outright leaders. This doesn't look like one of those seasons I'll grant you - I predict the most interesting battle after Monaco will be for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th teams after Ferrari.

3) Finally, if your complaint is simply one about old drivers and that younger drivers might get more out of the cars, then I would say that the teams probably know how to choose the best drivers they can get and that also, the argument that they are not challenging massa because they're old or crap falls flat when you factor in the cars they drive.

I also think that by saying Kubica and Kovi are the only ones on their game you are doing Massa a disservice. Are you saying that Massa only got pole because everyone else was rubbish - or would you agree that Massa got pole because he drove the fastest lap. Give him his dues now.

For me to site a "dearth of driving skill" I would wait until everyone was doing as terrible a job as NPJr is right now - but since he's the only driver who stands out as having been consistently underperforming I would only call it a dearth in one half of the Renault team.

That's my take. Granted, F1 doesn't always have drivers competing tooth and nail for the no1 spot - you have to learn to love the fights down the field too though. This season is one of those when you have to get excited about the McLaren - BMW battle, how far up Williams, Renault and Redbull can get, how Kovi and Hamilton square up against each other, how the driver's championship from 3rd place down settles out etc etc etc.

[dribbler 6]

I tend to agree with the sentiment of the thread. Whilst it's interesting to see drivers jostling for superiority, there is clearly no dominant force; no one driver that is setting the benchmark. The sport needs that. It needs a guy that the others all aspire to beating. That guy needs to be ruthless and a little disliked for his apparent but misunderstood arrogance. You busy, Michael?

Alonso has an excuse. He hasn't the car. Piquet is having a 'Button 01', yet unlike Button, he may not survive.

Kimi probably hasn't been prepared for Massa improving and now being his match. Does that mean we should criticise Kimi? On reflection, i think not. We should be praising the efforts of Massa. I didn't think he had it in him. Ferrari did,it seems they were right. If he keeps driving the way he is Kimi won't be able to get away with his lack of apparent interest. (Whisper it) He will have to up his game.

Same for Lewis. Heikki is coming for him.

Sometimes, when a sportsman comes along and dominates, it pulls everyone else up a notch. Michael made them all improve, then he left. They are all mini Michael clones. The top five or six are all very very good, but a little non descript and inherently bland.

Is there a level of brilliance yet to be achieved? Will Kimi or Lewis ramp it up to have a margin of superiority over the rest? That's the question.

It's frustrating the hell out of me; Looking like more of a fool than normal; "Oh, this is a Kimi weekend (whilst Massa wins)" "Don't worry, Lewis will be on pole in Monaco (whilst he aint)". Where's the constant? Where's the rank and file, the compartment we can put them all in to help us analyse their position, relative to everyone else?

Must be the regulations that have upset the balance, as Cav' suggested. Seriously, Michael, you busy?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

I tend to agree with the sentiment of the thread. Whilst it's interesting to see drivers jostling for superiority, there is clearly no dominant force; no one driver that is setting the benchmark. The sport needs that. It needs a guy that the others all aspire to beating. That guy needs to be ruthless and a little disliked for his apparent but misunderstood arrogance. You busy, Michael?

Alonso has an excuse. He hasn't the car. Piquet is having a 'Button 01', yet unlike Button, he may not survive.

Kimi probably hasn't been prepared for Massa improving and now being his match. Does that mean we should criticise Kimi? On reflection, i think not. We should be praising the efforts of Massa. I didn't think he had it in him. Ferrari did,it seems they were right. If he keeps driving the way he is Kimi won't be able to get away with his lack of apparent interest. (Whisper it) He will have to up his game.

Same for Lewis. Heikki is coming for him.

Sometimes, when a sportsman comes along and dominates, it pulls everyone else up a notch. Michael made them all improve, then he left. They are all mini Michael clones. The top five or six are all very very good, but a little non descript and inherently bland.

Is there a level of brilliance yet to be achieved? Will Kimi or Lewis ramp it up to have a margin of superiority over the rest? That's the question.

It's frustrating the hell out of me; Looking like more of a fool than normal; "Oh, this is a Kimi weekend (whilst Massa wins)" "Don't worry, Lewis will be on pole in Monaco (whilst he aint)". Where's the constant? Where's the rank and file, the compartment we can put them all in to help us analyse their position, relative to everyone else?

Must be the regulations that have upset the balance, as Cav' suggested. Seriously, Michael, you busy?

Kimi and Alonso are all Micheal mini-clones Alonso beats both Micheal and Kimi, and he's a Micheal mini clone??? this is unbelievable...

4 brilliant drivers at the moment and what did Micheal had.. An era with Brilliant rookies (Kimi and Alonso), up and coming champions needing time to peak at F1, the absence of Senna and Hakkinen!!!

MS had a bloody easy domination era!!!!!

Are all you Micheal fans suffering from post-traumatic stress???????

[cavallino 2]

I completely forgot about Nico, he's been the other standout performer this year.

Are Alonso and Kimi too jaded already? Is the future Nico, Kubeetza and Hammy?

[dribbler 6]

Kimi and Alonso are all Micheal mini-clones Alonso beats both Micheal and Kimi, and he's a Micheal mini clone??? this is unbelievable...

4 brilliant drivers at the moment and what did Micheal had.. An era with Brilliant rookies (Kimi and Alonso), up and coming champions needing time to peak at F1, the absence of Senna and Hakkinen!!!

MS had a bloody easy domination era!!!!!

Are all you Micheal fans suffering from post-traumatic stress???????

Michael was beaten by Alonso fair and square in '06. As such, Fernando was a worthy champion. But remember, Fernando wanted to be champion whilst Michael was still driving because he was the benchmark driver. It was Michael's example that made the likes of Kimi and Fernando rise to the occasion. Lewis's outward display of team interplay, handshakes, snogging and general love ins is all straight out of the Schumacher book of success.

Michael had an easy domination era? Michael spent years of hard graft perfecting every element of his success so that when it came, yes, it looked easy.

Michael would be just as likely to be swallowed up and made to look only simply very good if he was still driving.

[Rainmaster 7]

There's a lot of talent in F1 at the moment. Kubi, Rosberg, Kimi, Kova, Alonso, Hammy, Massa, Heidfeld, Button and Webber are all are all very good drivers that if you put in a Ferrari would win very quickly. (apologies if I've forgotten anyone obvious)

I don't think there's a shortage of skill in F1, certainly not compared with any other years.

EDIT: I forgot young Vettel, he looks pretty good.

[Silver_Arrows 0]

I personally feel that the main factors are that, firstly because of the regulation changes the gaps between the teams are closing. At the front the difference between being hero and zero is a matter of hundereths and that is a game that anyone can lose at, regardless of their status and prestiege. The other factor is that the strength in depth of the current field means the difference between a #1 and #2 driver may only be a few hundereths rather than a few tenths, again meaning the pressure is still there.

For my money, I feel that Lewis still has a slight edge over heikki on long run pace, but the 2 are close. As for Massa, he is slowly eradicating the errors from his game and stepping up to the plate, and he deserves commendation for doing that. Sometimes I feel that Kimi and his layed back attitude can be to his cost as I feel he occasionally loses his focus, whereas a Michael, Alonso, or Lewis wouldn\'t have similar lapses in concentration. At the end of the day yes, all drivers make errors thats part and parcel of the sport, but I am getting the impression that the fightback of Massa is starting to affect Kimi and his concentration, in fact I feel this season will be Felipes best chance yet.

[milly 0]

For my money, I feel that Lewis still has a slight edge over heikki on long run pace, but the 2 are close. As for Massa, he is slowly eradicating the errors from his game and stepping up to the plate, and he deserves commendation for doing that. Sometimes I feel that Kimi and his layed back attitude can be to his cost as I feel he occasionally loses his focus, whereas a Michael, Alonso, or Lewis wouldn\'t have similar lapses in concentration. At the end of the day yes, all drivers make errors thats part and parcel of the sport, but I am getting the impression that the fightback of Massa is starting to affect Kimi and his concentration, in fact I feel this season will be Felipes best chance yet.

Agreed. Felipe has definitely upped his game and is stating to give Kimi a run for his money. Whether or not this has rattled Kimi and affected his performance I'm not convinced though.

As to there being a dearth of talent on the grid I'm not sure I agree. Fair enough, there's a few mediocre drivers to bring in the cash and keep the sponsors happy but that's always happened really (Pedro Diniz, anyone??) and I think there are a lot of promising youger drivers like Nico, Kubica, Lewis, Heikki, Sutil, Vettel... OK so maybe it's time for the likes of Coulthard and Barrichello to be put out to pasture, and Fisi and Trulli probably not far behind, but the younger guys can definitely hold their heads high as far as I'm concerned.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

People are very quick to forget the standards past drivers have set. Kimi's had two bad races but they've got nothing on that two race run where Schumacher crashed out on the first corner entirely by his own doing, or 1996 where he was the first driver in the barriers in a wet Monaco (despite that Ferrari having a form of traction control.)

Or what about Senna crashing out of Monaco 88 whilst in a comfortable lead? Prost being lapped by Senna and trounced by Hill at Donnington 93? No?

[BradSpeedMan 6]

People are very quick to forget the standards past drivers have set. Kimi's had two bad races but they've got nothing on that two race run where Schumacher crashed out on the first corner entirely by his own doing, or 1996 where he was the first driver in the barriers in a wet Monaco (despite that Ferrari having a form of traction control.)

Or what about Senna crashing out of Monaco 88 whilst in a comfortable lead? Prost being lapped by Senna and trounced by Hill at Donnington 93? No?

It's just Cav being anal about his fav driver retiring and now sees nothing good from the sport.

[Jean Todt 4]

There's a lot of talent in F1 at the moment. Kubi, Rosberg, Kimi, Kova, Alonso, Hammy, Massa, Heidfeld, Button and Webber are all are all very good drivers that if you put in a Ferrari would win very quickly. (apologies if I've forgotten anyone obvious)

I don't think there's a shortage of skill in F1, certainly not compared with any other years.

EDIT: I forgot young Vettel, he looks pretty good.

Its okay if you forgot Ide, but how could you forget Sutil?

[Rainmaster 7]

I would now add Sutil to my list of good drivers

[Quiet One 15]

Actually, things have gone downhill since Liuzzi's departure. Oh, well...

[HandyNZL 1]

Actually it was since Scott Speed turned his back on the sport for more challenging pastures in American Oval Track Racing that was the defining moment of when skill and superiority left the grid.

Oh for flying ****s sake. The teams are close together - there hasn't been a season so close in terms of qualifying times in...oh....a billion light years. With teams getting so close it's harder to discern the truly great from the great. This is also a season where there are NO pay drivers. How many seasons have there been since 2000 without them on the grid.

Every driver is there on merit. The top two teams have arguably four of the top six drivers in the sport. That in itself nullifies one driver simply driving away from the field.

Is it easy to pick out the best driver in Indy Car? Is it Scott Dixon? Tony Kanaan? Helio Castorneves? Marco? On paper, and watching the races, it's very hard to tell because they are all in the same cars with the same engines and the same tyres. It comes back to little things - a 1000th here, a wing adjustment there.

Because the F1 teams have pulled rather close in the mid-field, and BMW is oh-so-close to joining Macca and Ferrari at the head of the field, we, as the spectators are finding it difficult to name an indisputable best-in-field.

Personally I'd take a season like this and last, over any of the Schumacher dominated ones. I'd rather not know whom was going to win. I enjoy cheering on Kubi, Hammy, Kovi, and Kimi for the win or the pass. And leave TC off the cars, too, whilst I'm ranting a little. Monaco showed who could drive without TC, and it appears that all the pro's got it a bit wrong with Kimi - of the top flight guys, he was the one really struggling until it dried out.

[Quiet One 15]

Actually it was since Scott Speed turned his back on the sport for more challenging pastures in American Oval Track Racing that was the defining moment of when skill and superiority left the grid.

Oh for flying ****s sake. The teams are close together - there hasn't been a season so close in terms of qualifying times in...oh....a billion light years. With teams getting so close it's harder to discern the truly great from the great. This is also a season where there are NO pay drivers. How many seasons have there been since 2000 without them on the grid.

Every driver is there on merit. The top two teams have arguably four of the top six drivers in the sport. That in itself nullifies one driver simply driving away from the field.

Is it easy to pick out the best driver in Indy Car? Is it Scott Dixon? Tony Kanaan? Helio Castorneves? Marco? On paper, and watching the races, it's very hard to tell because they are all in the same cars with the same engines and the same tyres. It comes back to little things - a 1000th here, a wing adjustment there.

Because the F1 teams have pulled rather close in the mid-field, and BMW is oh-so-close to joining Macca and Ferrari at the head of the field, we, as the spectators are finding it difficult to name an indisputable best-in-field.

Personally I'd take a season like this and last, over any of the Schumacher dominated ones. I'd rather not know whom was going to win. I enjoy cheering on Kubi, Hammy, Kovi, and Kimi for the win or the pass. And leave TC off the cars, too, whilst I'm ranting a little. Monaco showed who could drive without TC, and it appears that all the pro's got it a bit wrong with Kimi - of the top flight guys, he was the one really struggling until it dried out.

Amen.

Except I still think it was Liuzzi, not Speed.

[Elizabeth Sterling 0]

Actually it was since Scott Speed turned his back on the sport for more challenging pastures in American Oval Track Racing that was the defining moment of when skill and superiority left the grid.

Oh for flying ****s sake. The teams are close together - there hasn't been a season so close in terms of qualifying times in...oh....a billion light years. With teams getting so close it's harder to discern the truly great from the great. This is also a season where there are NO pay drivers. How many seasons have there been since 2000 without them on the grid.

Every driver is there on merit. The top two teams have arguably four of the top six drivers in the sport. That in itself nullifies one driver simply driving away from the field.

Is it easy to pick out the best driver in Indy Car? Is it Scott Dixon? Tony Kanaan? Helio Castorneves? Marco? On paper, and watching the races, it's very hard to tell because they are all in the same cars with the same engines and the same tyres. It comes back to little things - a 1000th here, a wing adjustment there.

Because the F1 teams have pulled rather close in the mid-field, and BMW is oh-so-close to joining Macca and Ferrari at the head of the field, we, as the spectators are finding it difficult to name an indisputable best-in-field.

Personally I'd take a season like this and last, over any of the Schumacher dominated ones. I'd rather not know whom was going to win. I enjoy cheering on Kubi, Hammy, Kovi, and Kimi for the win or the pass. And leave TC off the cars, too, whilst I'm ranting a little. Monaco showed who could drive without TC, and it appears that all the pro's got it a bit wrong with Kimi - of the top flight guys, he was the one really struggling until it dried out.

I agree with this almost entirely except that the geek in me forces me to point out rather pedantically that light-years are a measurement of distance. Sorry, that's the physicist within talking, she's not the most fun person. Still, top post, most people who complain about driving standards in F1 simply don't remember what things were like before the goddamn tedious TC addled Schumi era. In fact most of them even forget how prone the almighty Schumi was to mistakes under pressure our outside of P1.

[Ikyrotz 0]

Monaco showed who could drive without TC, and it appears that all the pro's got it a bit wrong with Kimi - of the top flight guys, he was the one really struggling until it dried out.

Hard to say based on one race. Before the Sutil incident, he did brake his front wing once, but at least on the SpeedTV coverage I didn't see what caused him to run wide (whether it was TC related or not). I didn't see him having trouble controlling the car since (though I guess one could argue that Kimi was slow because he wouldn't dare drive any faster, due to lack of skills driving without TC... I don't buy that though), until the Sutil incident, and even there, I was actually rather impressed by the way he was able to handle the car after he lost the control of the rear end. A lesser driver would've spun or crashed on the walls, but it was because Kimi was able to keep the car on the road that caused him running into Sutil in the end. One could argue that him losing the control of the rear in the first place was due to him not being able to drive the car without TC (at least as well as others) but personally I doubt that. The simplest explanation would appear to be him driving over a (wet) bump while starting to brake, causing rear tires to lock. I still consider him to be one of the drivers who benefit from the lack of TC, evidenced by the way he did control the car when it was about to spin away.

Sorry, that's the physicist within talking, she's not the most fun person.

Nice to see another physicist here. And... I disagree, we are the most fun people to have around. (or perhaps not, but mathematicians are even more boring )

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Hard to say based on one race. Before the Sutil incident, he did brake his front wing once, but at least on the SpeedTV coverage I didn't see what caused him to run wide (whether it was TC related or not). I didn't see him having trouble controlling the car since (though I guess one could argue that Kimi was slow because he wouldn't dare drive any faster, due to lack of skills driving without TC... I don't buy that though), until the Sutil incident, and even there, I was actually rather impressed by the way he was able to handle the car after he lost the control of the rear end. A lesser driver would've spun or crashed on the walls, but it was because Kimi was able to keep the car on the road that caused him running into Sutil in the end. One could argue that him losing the control of the rear in the first place was due to him not being able to drive the car without TC (at least as well as others) but personally I doubt that. The simplest explanation would appear to be him driving over a (wet) bump while starting to brake, causing rear tires to lock. I still consider him to be one of the drivers who benefit from the lack of TC, evidenced by the way he did control the car when it was about to spin away.

lovely post!

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

A lesser driver would've spun or crashed on the walls, but it was because Kimi was able to keep the car on the road that caused him running into Sutil in the end.

Hmm your post sounds like its celebrating mediocrity.

I like and admire Kimi but this was not one of his best races and I didn't see anything special in his driving. For "able to keep the car on the road" = slow.

[Fed up 0]

Hard to say based on one race. Before the Sutil incident, he did brake his front wing once, but at least on the SpeedTV coverage I didn't see what caused him to run wide (whether it was TC related or not). I didn't see him having trouble controlling the car since (though I guess one could argue that Kimi was slow because he wouldn't dare drive any faster, due to lack of skills driving without TC... I don't buy that though), until the Sutil incident, and even there, I was actually rather impressed by the way he was able to handle the car after he lost the control of the rear end. A lesser driver would've spun or crashed on the walls, but it was because Kimi was able to keep the car on the road that caused him running into Sutil in the end. One could argue that him losing the control of the rear in the first place was due to him not being able to drive the car without TC (at least as well as others) but personally I doubt that. The simplest explanation would appear to be him driving over a (wet) bump while starting to brake, causing rear tires to lock. I still consider him to be one of the drivers who benefit from the lack of TC, evidenced by the way he did control the car when it was about to spin away.

Nice to see another physicist here. And... I disagree, we are the most fun people to have around. (or perhaps not, but mathematicians are even more boring )

Kimi's problem is getting heat into the rear tyres. Mark Webber said that it was taking Kimi 2/3 laps to heat up his rear tyres and speculated that this was the cause of him losing the rear in that incident. Compared to Massa he has a smooth driving style and while Massa's aggressive turn in heats the rears quicker, Kimi struggles.

Note, Bahrain, Turkey and Monaco were races where ambient temperatures were lower than expected, Kimi struggled in all 3 for this very reason. Heating the tyres is especially important in Quali and that is where he is struggling the most and therefore is forced into the longer strategy to compensate.

[Rainmaster 7]

Kimi's problem is getting heat into the rear tyres. Mark Webber said that it was taking Kimi 2/3 laps to heat up his rear tyres and speculated that this was the cause of him losing the rear in that incident. Compared to Massa he has a smooth driving style and while Massa's aggressive turn in heats the rears quicker, Kimi struggles.

Note, Bahrain, Turkey and Monaco were races where ambient temperatures were lower than expected, Kimi struggled in all 3 for this very reason. Heating the tyres is especially important in Quali and that is where he is struggling the most and therefore is forced into the longer strategy to compensate.

I don't know whether this is right or not, it's certainly a possible explanation, but what you described is something that Heidfeld is definately struggling with.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

Kimi's problem is getting heat into the rear tyres. Mark Webber said that it was taking Kimi 2/3 laps to heat up his rear tyres and speculated that this was the cause of him losing the rear in that incident. Compared to Massa he has a smooth driving style and while Massa's aggressive turn in heats the rears quicker, Kimi struggles.

Note, Bahrain, Turkey and Monaco were races where ambient temperatures were lower than expected, Kimi struggled in all 3 for this very reason. Heating the tyres is especially important in Quali and that is where he is struggling the most and therefore is forced into the longer strategy to compensate.

I must sound like an answering machine put on repeat... but here goes again...

lovely post!

[pabloh20 1]

I must sound like an answering machine put on repeat... but here goes again...

lovely post!

So many threads, so many wind ups I can think of............................but I just don't have the heart