Mosley Survives Vote........will Stay On

[AleHop 0]

Principles? Are you really talking about principles?

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Two issues.

1.- Is Mosley right to stay? Yes.

2.- Are they right to force him leave? No.

If they (you) like principles so much they should respect their own rules. FIA is not U.N. where some countries can veto.

PS- Sorry, typos pabloh.

PS- More typos.

[Max Mosley 2]

Good posts AleHop and Wapi.

Anyway.....bollocks, I said no such thing. The higher standards of morals was then followed by my standards being at gutter level. Which bit of that did you not get??

Well I find it all confusing because you have repeatedly refused to condemn what I see as no more than petty bigotry and prudery.

I said I accept that other people have different views and live by different moral codes. And Max's preferences are irrelevant in my opinion, however, I accept that not everybody feels that way. And while you may be arrogant enough to convince yourself that only you and whoever agrees with you is right, I am much more intelligent than that

You're proposing the most ludicrous form of moral relativism. Everyone can have whatever moral code they like and you will defend their right to stick to it? So if I want to kill all black people, you would not "be arrogant enough" to condemn me? Maybe we should just accept that Mugabe has a different moral code than us, as Hitler did?

Now onto your principles. I am afraid it is you who is misguided, young Skywalker. You cannot keep taking about principles when you admit freely that the first time your principles affect you directly then you will question and maybe refute those principles. What you have there are not principles, they are just something that you say to make you feel better about yourself. True principles are the things that you will uphold even if it means that you will suffer, not just the ideals you will change as soon as it affects you personally. As they say, actions speak louder than words........

Nice words, but no one would act that way in reality. You would bankrupt your family for a principle? In that case, why don't you give your life savings to some starving Africans today?

[Fed up 0]

At the end of the day they will have to work with him, because he is the one signing some papers, he is the one deciding on some issues, so if you disqualify yourself you are damaging yourself not him. He is damaged beyond repair, anyhow

Anyone taking care of their own money, are willing to put everything behind and continue bussiness as usual. Because it is much more damaging to play stubborn child than to accept the fact that you lost in democratic process.

The democratic process you cite is flawed (conveniently) - DOF posted an article above in which it is claimed that 5% of FIA members were responsible for the actual result. Therefore 95% of members have no confidence in the President

They will not suddenly change their minds and say even though we have no confidence in you we are prepared to negotiate and discuss important issues worth $billions with him. The corporate world doesn't work like that and it is indeed naive to assume that all involved will just accept the result and move on.

No chance!

[pabloh20 1]

Good posts AleHop and Wapi.

Well I find it all confusing because you have repeatedly refused to condemn what I see as no more than petty bigotry and prudery.

You're proposing the most ludicrous form of moral relativism. Everyone can have whatever moral code they like and you will defend their right to stick to it? So if I want to kill all black people, you would not "be arrogant enough" to condemn me? Maybe we should just accept that Mugabe has a different moral code than us, as Hitler did?

I never said any such thing. I said I accept that people have different moral codes and I accept that people have different views to me. I never said anything at all about defending their right to stick to it. And isn't it obvious that Hitler or Mugabe has a different moral code to us ???

Accepting that somebody thinks differently to me is in no way an indication as to whether I will act on something or not, because let's be honest you are just talking extremes again. Each invidual case has to be considered separately. Just because I choose to accept and not act upon the fact that other people live by a different moral code to me and condemn Max, does not automatically mean that I will not act upon you if you want to kill all black people. However, I will still accept that you have a different moral code to me.

I think we are differeing in what we term 'accept'. I mean it, probably in the form of 'acknowledge', not in the form of I wholeheartedly agree and will act upon it. If that makes sense.

Nice words, but no one would act that way in reality. You would bankrupt your family for a principle? In that case, why don't you give your life savings to some starving Africans today?

Again I never said any such thing. I am merely pointing out that those things which you claim to be principles are not principles at all. I think you are getting mixed up on what principles are, in this respect and again you point to the extremes.

In answer to your question, though, no I wouldn't bankrupt my family for a principle, but then I don't consider myself to be a principled person. However, I also think that if I have a principle and I am not prepared to back that principle to the end, then it was never really a principle, just an ideal. And no I wouldn't give all my money to a starving African, for so many reasons, but mainly because I don't want to. However, that is not contradicting a principle of mine, because I have never said that anybody else should give all their money to charity, or the needy, either, however, I don't mind giving some money to charity.

And yes a prinicipled person would act that way in reality. Look at what happened to Ali when he refusedto be inducted.

[pabloh20 1]

Principles? Are you really talking about principles?

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Two issues.

1.- Is Mosley right to stay? Yes.

2.- Are they right to force him leave? No.

If they (you) like principles so much they should respect their own rules. FIA is not U.N. where some countries can veto.

PS- Sorry, typos pabloh.

PS- More typos.

Oh I see, making a typo is going to be referred to as a 'pablo' now ??????

[Max Mosley 2]

I think we are differing in what we term 'accept'. I mean it, probably in the form of 'acknowledge', not in the form of I wholeheartedly agree and will act upon it. If that makes sense.

Yes, I know what you were saying, but I still think you should condemn anything that goes against your own moral code. Obviously somethings need to be condemned more strongly than others, but you don't have to "be arrogant" to defend your moral code more strongly than you have done in this case.

I won't say much about the rest, except that you and I are just as selfish and immoral imho as Max. He uses prostitutes; we allow Africans to die because we are greedy. And if there are no situations in which you would compromise your moral code for selfish reasons, then it must be an unusual moral code. You speak out against racism, but you don't want to help Africans (at least not too much).

And Fed Up's post is nonsense. As we can see from this forum, most of the motorists represented by the large clubs of America or Britain don't care about his sex life. Absolute nonsense.

[wapi 4]

The democratic process you cite is flawed (conveniently) - DOF posted an article above in which it is claimed that 5% of FIA members were responsible for the actual result. Therefore 95% of members have no confidence in the President

Who asked every ADAC or AAA member for his/her opinion. Nobody. So it is very bold to claim that only 5% supported Mosley. Most probably 90% of those 95% would ask "how the F is Max Mosley?"

Anyhow it is irrelevant. Voting was by the rules everyone accepted when signed up for organization. It is childish to accept to play game by one set of rules and then after you lose claim that rules were not fair.

They will not suddenly change their minds and say even though we have no confidence in you we are prepared to negotiate and discuss important issues worth $billions with him. The corporate world doesn't work like that and it is indeed naive to assume that all involved will just accept the result and move on.

Well, if he is the controlling the money one way or another, they will negotiate with him. They might not like him, but corporate world is beyond emotions it is all about money.

One of the largest car manufacturers already said "let's move on". Bernie said "bussines as usual"...

No chance!

Watch it carrefully.

[AleHop 0]

And yes a prinicipled person would act that way in reality.

I think we agree on the important questions. But neither Max nor the rest of the F1 characters are principled persons. Who the hell wants to bring principles to F1? When? Why?

I think they should bring more pit babes first.

[monza gorilla 1]

What a lot of prolixity. And obfuscation. We must eschew obfuscation, and espouse elucidation. You all fail. Miserably.

[pumpdoc 2]

What a lot of prolixity. And obfuscation. We must eschew obfuscation, and espouse elucidation. You all fail. Miserably.

I prefer to call it bloviation.

[pabloh20 1]

Yes, I know what you were saying, but I still think you should condemn anything that goes against your own moral code. Obviously somethings need to be condemned more strongly than others, but you don't have to "be arrogant" to defend your moral code more strongly than you have done in this case.

I won't say much about the rest, except that you and I are just as selfish and immoral imho as Max. He uses prostitutes; we allow Africans to die because we are greedy. And if there are no situations in which you would compromise your moral code for selfish reasons, then it must be an unusual moral code. You speak out against racism, but you don't want to help Africans (at least not too much).

And Fed Up's post is nonsense. As we can see from this forum, most of the motorists represented by the large clubs of America or Britain don't care about his sex life. Absolute nonsense.

I didn't say don't want to help Africans, I said I didn't want to give them all my money. Or are you suggesting that the only way to help them would be to give them all my money?? Before I gave anyone all my money, I would give them all yours

Oh yeah and as far as I can see, Max pays prostitutes and he lets Africans die too

[pabloh20 1]

I think we agree on the important questions. But neither Max nor the rest of the F1 characters are principled persons. Who the hell wants to bring principles to F1? When? Why?

I think they should bring more pit babes first.

In principle, you are right

What a lot of prolixity. And obfuscation. We must eschew obfuscation, and espouse elucidation. You all fail. Miserably.

Not if our sole purpose in this thread was to eschew obfuscation.....................and stuff

I prefer to call it bloviation.

Bollocks is better

[cavallino 2]

"People like you"? And what are these "people like me" then Cav? Seems to be getting a bit personal! Sticks and stones...., etc

Not a personal attack (I admit it might sound like one). If everyone ignored the report in a stupid tabloid, things would be better all around, it's that simple.

Er, didn't you say that you read this NOTW report??? So from your description above.....

Come on, this is just pointless pedantry. I read it just like every single person interested in F1 would have, to be qualified to comment on it.

I should just add that I have not read it as it insults my intelligence

Well you're the one all twisted up about it. I don't care what Max did, it makes no difference to me, and to anyone apart from his family and him.

Well, thanks I'll take that as a compliment. I have an IQ of 156 so no "seemingly intelligent" about it

Again, I am sorry for not making myself clear. What I mean is intelligent people like you have given the stupid report credibility by giving it importance.

Anyway, let's move on... People like me are getting bored with all this.

This is funny. Me and Murray unapologetically are just enjoying the debate. You, pabloh and others keep wading into the debate, and then make desperate attempts to have the last word and try to pretend you're above it all. You're bored, you know where the door is, don't seek attention by telling us you're bored. Less of the 'this is my last post on this topic' please. I don't care honestly, and I suspect neither do others.

The democratic process you cite is flawed (conveniently)

Bollocks. The FIA is not a democracy, it is an organisation with its own rules. And those are the same rules that existed before the whole thing broke out. It is exactly the same process that got Max elected in the first place. You never had a problem with it before. You're like Hillary Clinton, you lose and then want the goalposts moved. Remember Bill Clinton's impeachment? It depended on about a 100 people in the senate, not a popular yes-no vote among 200 million people.

I prefer to call it bloviation.

Yes, but then, most of us speak english here

[AleHop 0]

What a lot of prolixity. And obfuscation. We must eschew obfuscation, and espouse elucidation. You all fail. Miserably.

We do our best.

I prefer to call it bloviation.

That word is not in my dictionary.

In principle, you are right

In principle, you are progressing.

[cavallino 2]

1) How will FIA be able to bring any action in future about "bringing sport into disrepute"?

There is a sporting code in F1. There is no 'you can't have sex with hookers' code. This is the equivalent of saying 'Max likes a bit of S&M in his own time therefore Mclaren didn't deserve to be punished for cheating'. Complete bollocks.

[cavallino 2]

I have no moral high horse and I have never taken a moral high horse stance, quite the opposite in fact, go read it . My only issue is with all the people who say it's a private matter.

You don't understand the meaning of what's private. A private matter is something that's noone else's business. If you manage to get information about someone's private life through snooping, it is still none of your business. You know about his private life because you made it your business to find out about it. Nobody was forced to read that stupid paper or watch the video. People went out of their way to be offended.

Try something. Go to your boss' house, look through the window while he is at it with his wife (or whoever), next day go to him and tell him that he should resign because you've seen him in a compromising position and you can't respect him anymore. That is precisely the argument that's being made against Mosley.

[pabloh20 1]

This is funny. Me and Murray unapologetically are just enjoying the debate. You, pabloh and others keep wading into the debate, and then make desperate attempts to have the last word and try to pretend you're above it all. You're bored, you know where the door is, don't seek attention by telling us you're bored. Less of the 'this is my last post on this topic' please. I don't care honestly, and I suspect neither do others.

No, I treat is a bit of light hearted fun, as I said earlier.

In principle, you are progressing.

Aww thanks...................errmmm, hang on

There is a sporting code in F1. There is no 'you can't have sex with hookers' code. This is the equivalent of saying 'Max likes a bit of S&M in his own time therefore Mclaren didn't deserve to be punished for cheating'. Complete bollocks.

You're learning

[AleHop 0]

You don't understand the meaning of what's private. A private matter is something that's noone else's business. If you manage to get information about someone's private life through snooping, it is still none of your business. You know about his private life because you made it your business to find out about it. Nobody was forced to read that stupid paper or watch the video. People went out of their way to be offended.

Try something. Go to your boss' house, look through the window while he is at it with his wife (or whoever), next day go to him and tell him that he should resign because you've seen him in a compromising position and you can't respect him anymore. That is precisely the argument that's being made against Mosley.

Hats off!

[F1 FANatic 1]

The real question becomes who will become president after Mosley leaves.

I was think about it a long time and i only really came up with one answer, and that was Todt. People may not like the Idea thinking that he would favor Ferrari but I doubt it.

Todt has always been a good leader and knows how to enforce decisions that are unpopular without all the drama that Max constantly stirs up. Todt also has the racing background to to help him govern all the FIA sports with a technical understanding and knowing how to create both a safe but also enjoying race. Don't forget that before F1 he was a champion Rally, Le Mans, and Sports Cars manager.

[pabloh20 1]

You don't understand the meaning of what's private. A private matter is something that's noone else's business. If you manage to get information about someone's private life through snooping, it is still none of your business. You know about his private life because you made it your business to find out about it. Nobody was forced to read that stupid paper or watch the video. People went out of their way to be offended.

Try something. Go to your boss' house, look through the window while he is at it with his wife (or whoever), next day go to him and tell him that he should resign because you've seen him in a compromising position and you can't respect him anymore. That is precisely the argument that's being made against Mosley.

Complete bollocks. You don't understand the meaning of private. However, if you think paying 5 hookers to indulge in sex games in a basement is private, go ahead and be my guest. You'll get far in life

Oh and by the way, Mosley , who you said acted admirably during the Mclaren spygate, said something along the lines of '....................it doesn't matter how the information came to light....................'

You live by the sword, you die by the sword

[AleHop 0]

Oh and by the way, Mosley , who you said acted admirably during the Mclaren spygate, said something along the lines of '....................it doesn't matter how the information came to light....................'

You live by the sword, you die by the sword

Maybe you're right there...

But still bollocks!

His sexual life is private, like it or not, and I prefer Max to get away with it because those behind the farce are much worse.

[pabloh20 1]

Maybe you're right there...

But still bollocks!

His sexual life is private, like it or not, and I prefer Max to get away with it because those behind the farce are much worse.

Good one, Shaggy!

His sex life should be private and could have been private, but we all know as soon as you venture outside the house, let alone involving other people, you run the risk of losing that privacy, whether that be accidental or deliberate.

I've caught Muzza loads of times, but he's always alone, so it's no fun

[AleHop 0]

Good one, Shaggy!

His sex life should be private and could have been private, but we all know as soon as you venture outside the house, let alone involving other people, you run the risk of losing that privacy, whether that be accidental or deliberate.

I've caught Muzza loads of times, but he's always alone, so it's no fun

Who made Max's sexual life public? Why? It wasn't accidental, I might be saying something different if it had been accidental but it was plotted in advance. What you say makes no sense, you could never have a private sexual life because it always involve other people.

[Max Mosley 2]

I've caught Muzza loads of times, but he's always alone, so it's no fun

That was below the belt.

[pabloh20 1]

Who made Max's sexual life public? Why? It wasn't accidental, I might be saying something different if it had been accidental but it was plotted in advance. What you say makes no sense, you could never have a private sexual life because it always involve other people.

Not if your married it doesn't.....................I mean....ermmm...........yeah you're right

That's just the point, though, isn't it? Even a wife or girlfriend, if she becomes an ex, can spill the beans, so you have to make sure you completely trust the other person. Now if you then start paying other people to indulge, then you have to be realistic about your chances of privacy