la force supreme des mclaren

Mosley Survives Vote........will Stay On

223 posts in this topic

Possibly, Steve, but you know I am never serious about these ancillary things, however, if that was an anonymous vote I'll run naked on the pitch at Anfield with a banner saying 'Drib, you were right!'.

Oh, my God! You cannot do that, Anfield do not deserve such a thing.

Go do it in Old Trafford. :lol:

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BMW and Merc yes that's precisely what they objected to. The German body I am guessing because the Germans are boviously hypersensitive to any Nazi reference.

When did they specifically say that it was the Nazi reference, because I didn't see that mentioned at the time? Though I suspect they would be sensetive to such issues.

Not a brothel. Some basement. I don't think we know yet who owns it, maybe he does? Either way, not a brothel.

So a basement can't be a brothel? And if he owns it, it's highly unlikely he would be paying. However, that's not the point, you do agree that if you involves 5 other hired people then you can no longer call it a private matter?

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You'll need the flash!!! Need the flash..................geddit!!!! Ok, ok, I'll get my flasher's mac, I mean coat :lol:

:lol:

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Oh, my God! You cannot do that, Anfield do not deserve such a thing.

Go do it in Old Trafford. :lol:

Good point , well made, Sir. However, I would actually shrivel and die upon entering Old Trafford....................that could have several meanings, make your own mind up! :lol:

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Even up here on my perch i can see that and thats precisely what i object to. Before this vote many people were saying oh, i dont think what he did affects his ability to do his job, but i want him to go because i dont like him. That does make them twats, yes, becaue instead of voicing an opinion about whether he should go over this issue, they were biased to start with. Me? I am actually not that big a fan, nor do i dislike him. I just like to see justice carried out fairly and with objectivity. You previous opinions on how he has ruined the sport make it clear that you are unable to be objective about this, so stop pretending that you are.

Whos narrow minded now?

Yep, I am narrow minded, I dont like him or the technical reforms he has made in the last few years. Yep, I am narrow minded, but I am far from alone in thinking that he screwed up F1. It is not easy to be objective about matters which reflect personal opinion. My personal opinion is that he was good at his job and I wanted him out of it, this was just as an excuse. At the end of the day, I have already stated my opinion on this, and I really do not care about what he actually did, but the very relevant matter is that regardless of the connotations of what he did, it WILL affect his ability to do his job because there is a big split and he does not have the support of the most important parts of the motorsport community. By definition if these people do not want to work with him, then yes he should very much go over this issue because it will have a profound effect on motorsport and the FIA and everyone who participates. Normally I do try to be objective, but I just have an intense dislike of Max and for that I do not apologise.

You may not like the way he has been screwed over, you may even find it morally reprehensible but the fact remains that his ability to do his job will be affected by people not wanting to work with him.

Edited by Silver_Arrows

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Yep, I am narrow minded.

You may not like the way he has been screwed over, you may even find it morally reprehensible but the fact remains that his ability to do his job will be affected by people not wanting to work with him.

So we're agreed then that you and all the people who don't want to work with him are narrow minded.

I'm going to eat and come back. Sincerely, i have enjoyed the debate.

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You may not like the way he has been screwed over, you may even find it morally reprehensible but the fact remains that his ability to do his job will be affected by people not wanting to work with him.

Dribbler, Cavallino, Wapi - address this point, please!!!

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F*ck them and any other hypocrite who claims to be a fan of the sport. They are the stupid c*nts who are bringing the sport down. Not a bloke who likes getting his end wet in a way that narrow minded tw*ts get all hissy about.

But what about people who work in the actual sport, forget all the dramatic bulls##t and the publics perceptions, what about people who don't tolerate this on a cultural level? Nothing wrong with getting your end wet (although the idea of Mosley is quite sickening), but surely he can't expect people to change their culture just so he can get some? This is the main problem here, he can't function properly in his job, and anything else is just bollocks frankly.

I've never met anyone who isn't a hypocrite in some way.

Dribbler, Cavallino, Wapi - address this point, please!!!

Indeed, the main point of the argument should be this. If someone can argue that this won't effect F1 or Mosley's ability to do his job then they're doing well.

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In a professional enviroment you should put aside your cultural prejudices. Once they realise they will not die for working with Max everything will be fine.

Edited by AleHop

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In a professional enviroment you should put aside your cultural prejudices. Once they realise they will not die for working with Max everything will be fine.

But to have a good working relationship you have to be able to be comfortable talking to the person..don't you think it's ridiculously egotisitical for Max to expect a country to change their beliefs for his rather interesting sexual habbits?

Even me, someone who thinks that the act isn't that terrible, would be uncomfortable working with Mosley in any professional environment, his actions will hang over every conversation he ever has. Embarassed silence.

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In a professional enviroment you should put aside your cultural prejudices. Once they realise they will not die for working with Max everything will be fine.

Indeed AleHop. Good post: short and sharp.

Most of the idiots who were too embarrassed to be seen with him will soon change their tune once the fuss has died down. It's the publicity they don't want, and hopefully now it will be much less of an issue. But even if they didn't change their tune, I would still want Max in his job. If some bigots refuse to work with the FIA then F1 will go elsewhere. I care more about the principle of not discriminating against someone on the basis of their sex life than I do about F1. If Max were being shunned for being black or Jewish the western world would be up in arms about it.

ADAC is not motorsport, it is mobility ("roadside assistance") club as is AAA. So it is hardly motorsport. British motorsport body issued statement saying "let's move on". Why is German road side assistance club of any relevance.

Nobody is going to found new sporting organization because F1 and WRC are brands, owned by FIA. Establishing new brand, or new racing series just because you do not like president is too expensive even for MAJOR member states or the car manufacturers who would at the end have to fund it. BMW already said "let's move on"... Anyone with IQ larger than shoe size is going to do the same, because hanging on this story is taking focus of the racing and marketing efforts of F1 team sponsors...

If I was any major team sponsor, I would demand that team and its domestic automobile federation stop beating dead horse and drawing attention away from my huge logo on their racing car.

BTW I do know why Germany is major member state regarding F1. Only Toyota is based in Germany and I would call them "influential player" in the F1 world... :)

Great post Wapi. Are there more where that one came from?

[Max] reminds me of Mugabe - Stubborn and dictatorial.

:lol: What bollocks! Mugabe's detractors have principles.

A xenophobe :lol: Pray explain Shane, I'm all agog

Don't worry. He simply has us confused, Cav.

I don't understand how can someone be such an self absorbed idiot like Mosley. Destroying F1 and now FIA.

For what ?!

The scandal has nothing to do with the future of the FIA. The scandal is just an excuse for the big clubs and you know it.

You can promise that this won't be the end? Even i won't check my crystal ball to see if that is true. The fan will need a good overhaul, for sure, because of the sh!t slingers who probably love watching 'Big Brother' and 'Britain's got talent' too.

F*ck them and any other hypocrite who claims to be a fan of the sport. They are the stupid c*nts who are bringing the sport down. Not a bloke who likes getting his end wet in a way that narrow minded tw*ts get all hissy about.

Indeed.

The 103 are a bunch of african countries who were promised a share from the McLaren fine.

Whaaaat? The africans have votes too? What a shame, because we all know the european clubs are clubs of principle who would never be so cynical.

You don't have your own moral code? That explains a lot....actually it doesn't. Aren't you the one always saying in the religious threads that you shouldn't get your moral values from a book, that you should use your own given conscience?? Come now, Muzza, you will have to do better than that.

:lol: Well, you didn't answer the question. I am none the wiser whether I am allowed in your book to be racist, since we are all allowed to have our own views on anything. But there is no inconsistency in my own views.

My view on morality is that we should all follow our own consciences. That doesn't mean anything goes, because anyone who thinks about this issue can see that Max's sex life (in itself, without factoring in the existence of unthinking bigots) should not be considered at all relevant to his job.

In fact this debate highlights exactly the point I was making in the religions threads. Namely, scripture-based morals are for idiots who can't think for themselves. Precisely the kind of people who are bigoted enough to think Max's sex life in itself is relevant to his job.

Edited by Murray Walker

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Well I step out of this debate here. Some believe that his sexual preferences should affect his job, others believe they shouldn't, the fact of the matter is they do and that does affect his job in the short-term; we will of course have to wait and see whether this all blows over, or escalates with time. There's been plenty of dancing around as usual in between all this too, but it's all good fun and games, a nice friendly debate mostly.

Regardless of any of that you can't argue that this isn't another black mark on Formula One, which is a sad thing considering the current state of things, I wonder what will be the next thing to deter potential sponsors and/or teams?

Right I'm off to snort some coke, shag some prostitutes and shoot someone. Cheers!

Edited by Rainmaster

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But to have a good working relationship you have to be able to be comfortable talking to the person..don't you think it's ridiculously egotisitical for Max to expect a country to change their beliefs for his rather interesting sexual habbits?

We are not talking about sincere friendship. They don't have to go out for dinner with Max, I do not like polygamy and maybe Max doesn't like it either. So he could go to Bahrain and say I won't go the meeting with that sheik, I'll avoid this or that. Do we care about their cultural prejudices? Should we care about it? Maybe we should.

Most of the idiots who were too embarrassed to be seen with him will soon change their tune once the fuss has died down. It's the publicity they don't want, and hopefully now it will be much less of an issue. But even if they didn't change their tune, I would still want Max in his job. If some bigots refuse to work with the FIA then F1 will go elsewhere. I care more about the principle of not discriminating against someone on the basis of their sex life than I do about F1. If Max were being shunned for being black or Jewish the western world would be up in arms about it.

We are the western world, we can't object to anything but others can object to everything.

Edited by AleHop

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Here's a couple of tips.

The FIA doesn't own F1, it owns the rights to the sanction the formula. CVC Capital Partners owns F1.

The FIA destroyed the old Grand Prix racing (championships) and in 1981 created the FIA Formula 1 World Championship.

Then it is when some say that Grand Prix racing died and FIA Formula 1 "racing" begun.

As the World Championships for Drivers and Constructors from 1950/1958 to 1980 WERE NOT the propriety of the FIA.

FIA only had the rights to create the formulae and to recognize-award the winners.

In other words ACF witch created Grand Prix racing in 1906 gave AIACR/FIA (AIACR was the initial name changed to FIA in 1947) only legislative rights to Grand Prix formulae. It didn't have judicial, executive or financial rights.

In other words neither the championships per se nor the financial/commercial rights belonged to the FIA.

Balestre/FIA/FISA created championships and rights/claims that were never there to begin with, as Formula 1 Grand Prix racing did not belong to the FIA in the first place.

The biggest piece of B* in motorsport history was this:

GENERAL REGULATIONS

1 -- In application of the decisions taken during the FIA Rio Congress of 15th April 1980, the FISA is organising the new FIA Formula 1 World Championship from 1st January 1981. As a result, the old World Championship for Drivers is suppressed.

2 -- The new Formula 1 World Championship, which is the property of the FIA, will have 2 World Championship titles, one for Drivers and one for Constructors.

The FIA via FISA (Balestre) stole and enslaved Formula 1 Grand Prix racing.

Later the EU stepped in and gave them an ultimatum to separate the commercial rights from the sanctioning rights with the Formula One Group being owned by CVC Capital Partners and FIA sanctioning of F1.

There is no need for creating a rival series, only some layer-ish tricks for CVC + teams to come with a different sanctioning body to displace/replace FIA.

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We are not talking about sincere friendship. They don't have to go out for dinner with Max, I do not like polygamy and maybe Max doesn't like it too. So he could go to Bahrain and say I won't go the meeting with that sheik, I'll avoid this or that. Do we care about their cultural prejudices? Should we care about it? Maybe we should.

We are the western world, we can't object to anything but others can object to everything.

But isn't it a tad silly that the President of the FIA can't fully carry out his duties for fear of embarrassment? Henceth the issue!

It's a farce, another one to add to the growing list in F1. He will carry out a watered down version of his role, which is pointless and stupid, and shows he is merely saving face and doesn't give a flying fcuk about the sport. So not only is he someone who can't carry out his duties, he is also by implication someone who is unconcerned with the best interests of F1. Oh and he's the President, wonderful.

I am a fan of the sport and it's all a little bit pathetic in my opinion. Very unprofessional for him to stick around knowing the furore (whether justified or not) there would be. A man with true balls would have accepted his situation, retained some dignity and credibility and retired on the spot.

Oh damn I said I'd leave this very time-consuming debate...I didn't even get as far as the door after all!

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We are not talking about sincere friendship. They don't have to go out for dinner with Max, I do not like polygamy and maybe Max doesn't like it either. So he could go to Bahrain and say I won't go the meeting with that sheik, I'll avoid this or that. Do we care about their cultural prejudices? Should we care about it? Maybe we should.

We are the western world, we can't object to anything but others can object to everything.

Another excellent post.

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Indeed AleHop. Good post: short and sharp.

:lol: Well, you didn't answer the question. I am none the wiser whether I am allowed in your book to be racist, since we are all allowed to have our own views on anything. But there is no inconsistency in my own views.

My view on morality is that we should all follow our own consciences. That doesn't mean anything goes, because anyone who thinks about this issue can see that Max's sex life (in itself, without factoring in the existence of unthinking bigots) should not be considered at all relevant to his job.

In fact this debate highlights exactly the point I was making in the religions threads. Namely, scripture-based morals are for idiots who can't think for themselves. Precisely the kind of people who are bigoted enough to think Max's sex life in itself is relevant to his job.

I was just answering pedantry with pedantry :D

You knew I was referring to countries having differing moral values, yet you chose to go to the extreme. However, in doing so, you contradicted yourself. First you said we can't have our own moral code, yet above you say you should follow our conscience. Following our own conscience, like you say we should do, means that we would all have our own moral code, which could be similar to other people around us, or it could vastly differ.

In answer to your question, of course you can choose to be racist and you can discriminate against whoever you want, probably the Spanish, in your case :whistling: The thing is, how on earth could anybody force you not to be racist, if, as a normal, intelligent........ok semi-intelligent person, you have chosen that route? You can lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink.

And bollocks to the rest of your post! :lol:

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Oh well - that's democracy - now let's see if he can't be given the elbow for a valid reason - like being crap at his job.

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In a professional enviroment you should put aside your cultural prejudices. Once they realise they will not die for working with Max everything will be fine.

Yes, but you also have to be seen to represent the views of your people.

ADAC is not motorsport, it is mobility

I have looked into that, and you are wrong. Whilst that is indeed PART of their service, they are also the largest automobile club in Europe, with approximately 15 million members, therefore it definately has a motorsporting imperitive, and it also organises the European GP.

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I was just answering pedantry with pedantry :D

It's not pedantry. I'm just trying to tease out the tensions in your views. :P

You knew I was referring to countries having differing moral values, yet you chose to go to the extreme. However, in doing so, you contradicted yourself. First you said we can't have our own moral code, yet above you say you should follow our conscience. Following our own conscience, like you say we should do, means that we would all have our own moral code, which could be similar to other people around us, or it could vastly differ.

The extremes are the best places to test principles. If our principles don't hold up there then we need new ones. I don't think it matters whether it's a country's moral values, or an individual's, that are ill-conceived. And there is no contradiction in my posts - my views are just complicated and subtle. :P

Everyone should follow their own conscience. But that does not mean that all moral codes are equally valid. Everyone has different opinions on poetry or music, but any intelligent well-informed person can agree that Shakespeare and Mozart were more talented than me. Moreover, academics have argued for hundreds of years over these issues and gradually more and more is understood about their genius, and we can say more and more definitively what made them geniuses.

Similarly, it is possible for there to be a perfect moral code that we are all striving towards through our own individual consciences. Through discussion and debate, I believe everyone will agree on some basic principles, including the idea that someone's sexual preferences generally have no bearing on their job.

In answer to your question, of course you can choose to be racist and you can discriminate against whoever you want, probably the Spanish, in your case :whistling: The thing is, how on earth could anybody force you not to be racist, if, as a normal, intelligent........ok semi-intelligent person, you have chosen that route? You can lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink.

People are banned for being racist on here. The moral majority stand up for their principles in that case. If Bernie were snubbed for being Jewish, no one in Britain would offer the mealy-mouthed appeasements to ignorance that we've heard over and over again regarding Max.

So just to be clear, in your opinion no one can actually say whether it is morally right to be racist or not? And you wouldn't try to promote your own views on racism in the wider world?

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I believe everyone will agree on some basic principles, including the idea that someone\'s sexual preferences generally have no bearing on their job.

In theory, no it should not but when you accept a job as high profile as that, and you are holding up an umbrella that covers such a wide variety of people and cultures as Max was you have to carry yourself in a manner befitting of that importance, and you have to accept that there will, to some extent be intrusion on your private life.

In theory, I will agree that the way that Max was set up was totally deplorable, unfortunately that will count for very little because his faux-pas was magnified by the importance of his position. One of the most important features of anyone in a high profile position is to inspire respect in you. If you lose that, it is all downhill from there.

In an ideal world, I would agree that someones private life would have no bearing on their ability to do their job, however we do not live in an ideal world. Yes, that is to our detriment, but I have had a lot of crap in my life, but one thing I have learnt time and again is to conduct your life, sometimes you are required to make sacrifices, and unfortunately in a job like Max Moseleys that includes dodgy sexual preferences.

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It's not pedantry. I'm just trying to tease out the tensions in your views. :P

You have more chance of catching syphillis in a monastery than getting tension out of me, young padawan! :lol:

The extremes are the best places to test principles. If our principles don't hold up there then we need new ones. I don't think it matters whether it's a country's moral values, or an individual's, that are ill-conceived. And there is no contradiction in my posts - my views are just complicated and subtle. :P

Everyone should follow their own conscience. But that does not mean that all moral codes are equally valid. Everyone has different opinions on poetry or music, but any intelligent well-informed person can agree that Shakespeare and Mozart were more talented than me. Moreover, academics have argued for hundreds of years over these issues and gradually more and more is understood about their genius, and we can say more and more definitively what made them geniuses.

Similarly, it is possible for there to be a perfect moral code that we are all striving towards through our own individual consciences. Through discussion and debate, I believe everyone will agree on some basic principles, including the idea that someone's sexual preferences generally have no bearing on their job.

You say complicated and subtle, I say inconsistent.

Then you need new principles, because it was established earlier in this thread, I think it was, that if you are affected directly, then you do not stick to your principles.

I never said all moral codes were equally valid, I just said some countries have differing moral values, or are you disagreeing with that? But thanks for the completely irrelevant lecture :lol:

And yes, sexual preferences can have a bearing on your job, I gave an example earlier in the thread.

People are banned for being racist on here. The moral majority stand up for their principles in that case. If Bernie were snubbed for being Jewish, no one in Britain would offer the mealy-mouthed appeasements to ignorance that we've heard over and over again regarding Max.

So just to be clear, in your opinion no one can actually say whether it is morally right to be racist or not? And you wouldn't try to promote your own views on racism in the wider world?

I never said any such thing. How on earth did you come to that conclusion? Does the phrase 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink' not mean anything to you? :eusa_think: What's even more perplexing is that you know I have promoted my views on racism on here, so that sort of makes that question a bit defunct really.

Edited by pabloh20

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When did they specifically say that it was the Nazi reference, because I didn't see that mentioned at the time? Though I suspect they would be sensetive to such issues.

BMW and Merc issued a statement when the whole thing came to light. Find it :P

So a basement can't be a brothel? And if he owns it, it's highly unlikely he would be paying. However, that's not the point, you do agree that if you involves 5 other hired people then you can no longer call it a private matter?

Of course it's a private matter. Your sex life is a private matter, as long as you don't break the law. Simply because it doesn't affect anyone else. If it makes prudish people uncomfortable, I am all for it. I am not against morals and principles, I am against the pretence that they haev anything to do with big business. Big business has no qualms no morals no ethics, and it is laughable that Max's sex life is of such importance.

There is plenty wrong with the world, for anyone who wants to talk of morals and ethics. Get off your moral high horse, you're not doing anything to make the world better by taking a pointless stand against a private matter that affects no one else. There are plenty of worthy causes in the world, and plenty for real journalists to find out if they'd take the trouble. BMW and Merc rushed off a letter about this. When was the last time they took a stand of principle? The same bloody lot of companies will be sponsoring and financing the olympics in China.

Normally I do try to be objective, but I just have an intense dislike of Max and for that I do not apologise.

On one hand, your honesty is admirable, but at the same time you've said that you can't be objective, so that makes your views completely void.

You may not like the way he has been screwed over, you may even find it morally reprehensible but the fact remains that his ability to do his job will be affected by people not wanting to work with him.

Two things here. One is that I don't see how the ceremonial role is suddenly so important - I don't remember seeing too many pictures of Max with dignitaries, politicians, kissing the queen's hand. I don't think that role is remotely important, he doesn't even attend many races.

The other point is, as you think you're taking a stand of principle, you forget that the people who matter are taking a stand of convenience. People here arel ooking on Bernie as their saviour, and hoping the big car manufacturers will break away. Well, Bernie's already said he'll live with Max, BMW have said it's time to move on, and the British motoring federation thingy have also said it's time to move on. More will follow. Because noone was taking a stand of principle, now everyone is minimizing their losses.

The only people who may take a stand are politicians and freeloading royal families. Who cares? F#$k them, none of them have a moral standing any better than Mosley.

Dribbler, Cavallino, Wapi - address this point, please!!!

See above.

Another excellent post.

Indeed.

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In theory, no it should not but when you accept a job as high profile as that, and you are holding up an umbrella that covers such a wide variety of people and cultures as Max was you have to carry yourself in a manner befitting of that importance, and you have to accept that there will, to some extent be intrusion on your private life.

In theory, I will agree that the way that Max was set up was totally deplorable, unfortunately that will count for very little because his faux-pas was magnified by the importance of his position. One of the most important features of anyone in a high profile position is to inspire respect in you. If you lose that, it is all downhill from there.

In an ideal world, I would agree that someones private life would have no bearing on their ability to do their job, however we do not live in an ideal world. Yes, that is to our detriment, but I have had a lot of crap in my life, but one thing I have learnt time and again is to conduct your life, sometimes you are required to make sacrifices, and unfortunately in a job like Max Moseleys that includes dodgy sexual preferences.

Good post.

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