AleHop

Silverstone: Practice, Qualy, Race, Bashing, Swearing, Etc.

112 posts in this topic

I agree. If Alonso cannot predict the weather is because he is worthless. Moreover, his inability to predict the weather implies zero knowledge about F1.

Of course the team should be predicting the weather correctly, and perhaps they did, and when the mistake became obvious he might have suggested pitting earlier. Nick even got a wrong weather prediction and, rightly, told them they were wrong, which I guess was the difference between 2nd and 6th today. Nevertheless I wasn't being entirely serious, as the :P icon usually indicates.

Hey! I suppose you are still working on the million dollar question... Why was McLaren the team to beat last year? Ahhhh yes, I'm still laughing...

It's a very easy question to answer - funny you phrased it that way! McLaren have produced fast cars in recent years, just not reliable ones, which is not something we can attribute to Alonso's technical feedback. Considering the enormous fine they received, McLaren have kept up a very high level of performance, whereas Renault have gone backwards since re-signing Alonso.

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Kimi finished ahead. Barely. After spinning several times. On a Ferrari. Anything else?
He span twice, less than 'nando's tally of mistakes and lost way more time with the pit blunder than Fernando did. He was still faster in qually, faster on raw race pace and finished ahead despite losing well over a minute due to a tactical blunder.

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He span twice, less than 'nando's tally of mistakes and lost way more time with the pit blunder than Fernando did. He was still faster in qually, faster on raw race pace and finished ahead despite losing well over a minute due to a tactical blunder.

The tally of mistakes Nando did being...? The tire strategy was equally crappy for both. And the "Kimi was faster" keeping in mind he is on a Ferrari, not a FI is not too impressive for a guy that finished barely ahead of an ailing R28.

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'nando's car was fine and he ran wide repeatedly throughout the afternoon. He was finding racing lines with about the success rate of a console gamer with the screen turned off. And considering he was the fastest man out there for the best part of hte opening half, Ferrari or not, is way mroe than you can say for 'nando who was losing out to his team-mate suck Jr. And no, Alonso lost way less time on his tyre gamble than Kimi.

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'nando's car was fine and he ran wide repeatedly throughout the afternoon. He was finding racing lines with about the success rate of a console gamer with the screen turned off. And considering he was the fastest man out there for the best part of hte opening half, Ferrari or not, is way mroe than you can say for 'nando who was losing out to his team-mate suck Jr. And no, Alonso lost way less time on his tyre gamble than Kimi.

Nando's car was fine: it's an R28. An R28 being "fine" is as good as a donkey with hemorroids. Certainly a car for finishing 6th or 7th.

He didn't stick to any racing line precisely because of the crappy tire strategy (which is his biggest fault). Piquet wasn't crappy at all right up until he did a Nelsinho and spun out of the race. He did give Nando a run for his money for a good part of the race. Credit for Nelsinho, not for Kimi.

Nando was also the fastest man out there at the beggining. Yet I dind't use that to excuse Nando's mistakes.

I can't see any interesting conclusion we can arrive from this discussion (because nor Nando nor Kimi were really that impressive) but, oh well, it's been a while since I argued with anybody around here :D

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Kimi finished ahead. Barely. After spinning several times. On a Ferrari. Anything else? :P

:lol: Yeah but Nando is so popular here he almost had a home advantage.

Yes, strategical planning used to be a strong point for Nando. It obviously wasn't this time. I could say as a Nando fan that it was a gamble that could have given him at least a podium, but actually it was stupid. A more conservative approach could have yielded much better results. It was obvious even for me when he got his pitstop. And my strategic planning skill is zero.

Yeah I agree. Having said that it's also the team's fault. My main argument is really that drivers don't make much difference to these things, not that Nando is bad at it - quite the reverse.

When you say "Button is better than Rubinho" you mean it in some metaphorical, non-f1 related way, right? :P

I think Brawn has brought in some Ferrari-style team orders. There can be no other explanation!

I am not saying that Nando drove a perfect race. Lewis has the award for that this race. Rubinho, Heidfeld were better, even Nakajima and Trulli at least as good (or as bad) as Nando. Kubica was better, too. But Kimi wasn't.

I'd probably agree with that. Without his tyre set back Kimi would probably have done fairly well, but perhaps after that his heart wasn't in it.

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Yeah I agree. Having said that it's also the team's fault. My main argument is really that drivers don't make much difference to these things, not that Nando is bad at it - quite the reverse.

Depends on the driver. Some drivers accept whatever the pitwall recommends. Others, like Nando, usually have a saying on his own strategy. I am pretty sure that if he disagreed, they would not have done such a moronic move. I duly credited him when the strategies paid off. It is only fair (oh, yes, remember I am sooo fair :lol: ) to bash him for a poor strategy, too.

I think Brawn has brought in some Ferrari-style team orders. There can be no other explanation!

:roll:

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Well, yes that's very fair! Personally I neither give him much credit when technical things go right nor blame him too much when things go wrong.

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And let's not forget good old Rubinho. Will we still be talking how good is Button and how old and useless is Rubinho after this?

We may be talking about how good Button is. Sorry. :P

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Depends on the driver. Some drivers accept whatever the pitwall recommends. Others, like Nando, usually have a saying on his own strategy. I am pretty sure that if he disagreed, they would not have done such a moronic move. I duly credited him when the strategies paid off. It is only fair (oh, yes, remember I am sooo fair :lol: ) to bash him for a poor strategy, too.

Personally, I thought Alonso just had a bit of a gamble on the next lot of rain not being too harsh, if it had been a drying track he would have been laughing, I think. Do you not think so too? If it had paid off, he would have been well up the points, I would imagine. Also, he put a bit of front wing back on in one of his pit stops, which would have also paid off an a drying track.

There's not enough of this type of gambling n F1 anymore, as far as I am concerned. I used to enjoy seeing drivers/teams mixing up the strategies, gambling on tyres a bit more. So I say bravo to Alonso for having a go, he had nothing to lose, really.

Though for Brad's benefit, Kimi's gamble was just dumb! :whistling::lol:

Edited by pabloh20

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It's a very easy question to answer - funny you phrased it that way! McLaren have produced fast cars in recent years, just not reliable ones, which is not something we can attribute to Alonso's technical feedback. Considering the enormous fine they received, McLaren have kept up a very high level of performance, whereas Renault have gone backwards since re-signing Alonso.

Yeap. I figured that since you couldn't credit Hamilton or Alonso with it and acknolweging the espionage is out of the question, what was left was... what again?

And, sure. Alonso is to blame for Renault's situation. He's got the best car on the grid (as poster Sterling insists on once again) but...

He span twice, less than 'nando's tally of mistakes and lost way more time with the pit blunder than Fernando did. He was still faster in qually, faster on raw race pace and finished ahead despite losing well over a minute due to a tactical blunder.

Not the first time I see you can't tell the difference between a Renault and a Ferrari...

The tally of mistakes Nando did being...? The tire strategy was equally crappy for both. And the "Kimi was faster" keeping in mind he is on a Ferrari, not a FI is not too impressive for a guy that finished barely ahead of an ailing R28.

It's no use. The woman is stuck on first gear.

You know. Hamilton won fair and square.. or at least won just like most races have been won this year, that is, without a real challenge to the guy that _this_day_ didn't fck up.

It can be called many things, but "competition" is not one of them...

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Personally, I thought Alonso just had a bit of a gamble on the next lot of rain not being too harsh, if it had been a drying track he would have been laughing, I think. Do you not think so too? If it had paid off, he would have been well up the points, I would imagine. Also, he put a bit of front wing back on in one of his pit stops, which would have also paid off an a drying track.

There's not enough of this type of gambling n F1 anymore, as far as I am concerned. I used to enjoy seeing drivers/teams mixing up the strategies, gambling on tyres a bit more. So I say bravo to Alonso for having a go, he had nothing to lose, really.

Though for Brad's benefit, Kimi's gamble was just dumb! :whistling::lol:

:lol: Perhaps - it would be interesting to know what discussions took place. (Usually when the team c#ck up, against his good advice, Alonso lets us know all about it. :P ) Alonso (and Kimi) would have scored big points with a more sensible strategy so I think he did have something to lose.

Yeap. I figured that since you couldn't credit Hamilton or Alonso with it and acknolweging the espionage is out of the question, what was left was... what again?

And, sure. Alonso is to blame for Renault's situation. He's got the best car on the grid (as poster Sterling insists on once again) but...

I of course said no such things. The reality is that there were many predictions that when Alonso went back to Renault, McLaren would be no-hopers and Renault would see a dramatic improvement. You yourself have repeated that view in this very thread. And the point is that the facts prove you, and many others, wrong yet again!

It can be called many things, but "competition" is not one of them...

The fact that other people make mistakes doesn't mean it can't be a competition.

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You know. Hamilton won fair and square.. or at least won just like most races have been won this year, that is, without a real challenge to the guy that _this_day_ didn't fck up.

It can be called many things, but "competition" is not one of them...

If it had been a dry race, I would probably have agreed, just another win a la Massa. Keeping in mind that everybody ****ed up this race, it obviously took some extra skills not to **** up. When everybody else (inlcuding some undoubtfuly talented drivers, 2 of them WDCs) were struggling just to keep the car in one piece, with a distant second priority to keep it also on the track, then what he did really shines. He kept a car in an almost impossible track, he drove fast, he won. He didn't have it hard to overtake anybody (Webber's move at the start was stupid and Kovy obviously let him through). But in a race like this even overtaking a backmarker requires some skills.

I still hate Lewis, but this is the first time he actually impressed me since his debut days.

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Nando's car was fine: it's an R28. An R28 being "fine" is as good as a donkey with hemorroids. Certainly a car for finishing 6th or 7th.

He didn't stick to any racing line precisely because of the crappy tire strategy (which is his biggest fault). Piquet wasn't crappy at all right up until he did a Nelsinho and spun out of the race. He did give Nando a run for his money for a good part of the race. Credit for Nelsinho, not for Kimi.

Nando was also the fastest man out there at the beggining. Yet I dind't use that to excuse Nando's mistakes.

I can't see any interesting conclusion we can arrive from this discussion (because nor Nando nor Kimi were really that impressive) but, oh well, it's been a while since I argued with anybody around here :D

I think you need me around here, I will try to get more time to bash Alonso the way he deserve now that he is being trashed by NP.

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Depends on the driver. Some drivers accept whatever the pitwall recommends. Others, like Nando, usually have a saying on his own strategy. I am pretty sure that if he disagreed, they would not have done such a moronic move. I duly credited him when the strategies paid off. It is only fair (oh, yes, remember I am sooo fair :lol: ) to bash him for a poor strategy, too.

:roll:

Welcome to the club.

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Personally, I thought Alonso just had a bit of a gamble on the next lot of rain not being too harsh, if it had been a drying track he would have been laughing, I think. Do you not think so too? If it had paid off, he would have been well up the points, I would imagine. Also, he put a bit of front wing back on in one of his pit stops, which would have also paid off an a drying track.

There's not enough of this type of gambling n F1 anymore, as far as I am concerned. I used to enjoy seeing drivers/teams mixing up the strategies, gambling on tyres a bit more. So I say bravo to Alonso for having a go, he had nothing to lose, really.

Though for Brad's benefit, Kimi's gamble was just dumb! :whistling::lol:

I think so too but I also think that Kimi would have finished ahead of him anyway.

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Stefano Domenicalli is making way to many statements like this lately "All the same, we have to admit that, this weekend, we did not operate to our usual standard. We made mistakes at every level and even our performance did not match our expectations and now we have to work out why, but calmly without panicking." It think it is time for panic in Ferrari and new team boss. It was obvious that on few ocassions this year RB and JT are missed very much. And they need better meteorologist in the team :)

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If it had been a dry race, I would probably have agreed, just another win a la Massa. Keeping in mind that everybody ****ed up this race, it obviously took some extra skills not to **** up. When everybody else (inlcuding some undoubtfuly talented drivers, 2 of them WDCs) were struggling just to keep the car in one piece, with a distant second priority to keep it also on the track, then what he did really shines. He kept a car in an almost impossible track, he drove fast, he won. He didn't have it hard to overtake anybody (Webber's move at the start was stupid and Kovy obviously let him through). But in a race like this even overtaking a backmarker requires some skills.

I still hate Lewis, but this is the first time he actually impressed me since his debut days.

I agree. Hamilton drove a really well, and that's why I didn't mind him winning, as it would happen usually xD

Anyways, all the guys on the podium rightly deserved their place. Great race today ^^

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:lol: Perhaps - it would be interesting to know what discussions took place. (Usually when the team c#ck up, against his good advice, Alonso lets us know all about it. :P ) Alonso (and Kimi) would have scored big points with a more sensible strategy so I think he did have something to lose.

Kimi's I am not so sure about, but I think Alonso's gamble was fair game. If it had paid off, he may have been able to get on the podium, or something. That may seem more prestigious than another couple of points. Of course, there was always the chance that even if the gamble didn't pay off, people ahead of him might have had dnf. Of course he could have had a dnf himself, but that's what they call it gambling :lol:

Kimi's choice did seem a bit strange though. I can see why he wanted to stay on the same tyres, after all, they were working really well for him at the end of the first stint. Maybe even then, he felt that he would only be able to beat Lewis on a drying to dry track and so thought it was worth the risk. However, changing to new tyres may have meant being able to stay with Lewis and then have a chance to get him if/when the track dried again, if he was within touching distance. So perhaps the gamble wasn't really worth taking, but it's easy to judge these things with hindsight.

Edited by pabloh20

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If it had been a dry race, I would probably have agreed, just another win a la Massa. Keeping in mind that everybody ****ed up this race, it obviously took some extra skills not to **** up. When everybody else (inlcuding some undoubtfuly talented drivers, 2 of them WDCs) were struggling just to keep the car in one piece, with a distant second priority to keep it also on the track, then what he did really shines. He kept a car in an almost impossible track, he drove fast, he won. He didn't have it hard to overtake anybody (Webber's move at the start was stupid and Kovy obviously let him through). But in a race like this even overtaking a backmarker requires some skills.

I still hate Lewis, but this is the first time he actually impressed me since his debut days.

Yup he drove very well today. I'd say over the whole season he's still shown great talent, speed etc but he's fluffed a few sitters. If he can eliminate the silly errors we've seen then he'll be a very fine driver. And like I've said before, somewhat controversially, at this stage of their careers almost all the greats were making mistakes. He needs to refine his attitude a little, but so do plenty others!

Maure's argument that it wasn't a contest because other talented people made mistakes in treacherous conditions sounds like sour grapes to me. Not only did Lewis avoid any significant mistakes in very difficult conditions, but he was mind-bogglingly quick with it - literally: even Ross Brawn and I can't understand it.

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Kimi's I am not so sure about, but I think Alonso's gamble was fair game. If it had paid off, he may have been able to get on the podium, or something. That may seem more prestigious than another couple of points. Of course, there was always the chance that even if the gamble didn't pay off, people ahead of him might have had dnf. Of course he could have had a dnf himself, but that's what they call it gambling :lol:

Kimi's choice did seem a bit strange though. I can see why he wanted to stay on the same tyres, after all, they were working really well for him at the end of the first stint. Maybe even then, he felt that he would only be able to beat Lewis on a drying to dry track and so thought it was worth the risk. However, changing to new tyres may have meant being able to stay with Lewis and then have a chance to get him if/when the track dried again, if he was within touching distance. So perhaps the gamble wasn't really worth taking, but it's easy to judge these things with hindsight.

Yeah well Kimi said it was the team's choice - as you would expect from him. With Alonso, I don't know but it seems a huge gamble for surely at best a couple of tenths per lap. If it rained at any time during that stint he'd be screwed and you could see huge rain clouds overhead.

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Lewis lapped Kimi and Nando and was 68 secs ahead of 2nd place Nick - fact!

As for Kimi and Nando's gamble on worn inters, that was a school boy error, as Martin Brundle correctly pointed out that worn inters are terrible on any kind of rain due to loss of tyre temperature. There was also a prediction of imminent rain so why Kimi, in particular, chose the worn inters was especially puzzling as Nando's lack of pace should have been used as a barometer for their relative performance.

Kovy showed you all why he will never challenge for a WDC. The guy has one lap pace, but zero race pace. He should have won the race today and his pace on a lighter car to Lewis was perhaps the telling difference between the 2 drivers - James Allen commented that Lewis claimed to be missing Alonso for the inter team rivalry...I can see what he means.

Ferrari have the car and the drivers to win the WDC - They're only problem is the formidable challenge of Lewis and, unless they focus their energies on one of their drivers they're in danger of losing out.

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Personally, I thought Alonso just had a bit of a gamble on the next lot of rain not being too harsh, if it had been a drying track he would have been laughing, I think. Do you not think so too? If it had paid off, he would have been well up the points, I would imagine. Also, he put a bit of front wing back on in one of his pit stops, which would have also paid off an a drying track.

There's not enough of this type of gambling n F1 anymore, as far as I am concerned. I used to enjoy seeing drivers/teams mixing up the strategies, gambling on tyres a bit more. So I say bravo to Alonso for having a go, he had nothing to lose, really.

Though for Brad's benefit, Kimi's gamble was just dumb! :whistling::lol:

You're so right!

If the track had dryed now Kimi and Nando would be laughing but we saw a perfect and impresive race from Hamilton which is probably his best race. I think Ferrari-Kimi must be worried and Massa will be Ferrari's 2nd driver again. That or they could have two 2nd drivers. ;)

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RB & RB in Honda provided evidence that correct choice of tyres (extreme wet) could mean 5 sec per lap. So the correct strategy was to put little fuel and extreme wets, because further rain was forecast and tempo of track drying proved to be very slow anyhow. Even if rain was not so hard, extreme wets would work well. In that case make a little bit early last pitstop and cghange to intermediates... Extreme wets were outperforming intermediates until last 18-20 laps. At that point there was time for another pitstop to change tyres and put a splash of fuel in the car. Obviously noone on Ferrari pitwall is capable of simple logical analysis. Kimi will be WDC only if there is no more safety cars and wet races until the end of the year. When things do not go as planned Ferrari is completely incompetent of adapting strategy.

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