Appalling Driving Standards On Display In 2008 - Contd.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

So, what random collection of drivers (top, middle, and bottom) will fill up the podium next GP... anyone?

Maure if you hate it that much, why don't you just stop watching?

Steve - good post. Makes sense to me.

[cavallino 2]

I think we're talking specifically about aquaplaning. In that situation you have no control.

You have control before you land up on a wet patch, that's perhaps the most important wet track skill - picking the right, driest line. Also aquaplaning is a function of speed, so if your car aquaplanes, you were going too fast. Again, more evidence of the poor wet weather skills of most drievrs on the grid.

Really, especially coming from the self proclaimed technical guru DOH!_Renault_BMW, this is hilarious. Aquaplaning isn't some divine force that makes your car slides up, it is a result of screwing up.

Drivers at the top, at the front, push hardest.

Not true. However what we seem to have this year is like 2nd rate actors suddenly forced into lead roles, and the few remaining lead actors already well past it.

Rule changes have maybe made the cars tricky.

Trickier, than last year. You'd expect the best in the world to cope. They can't, they've been woeful.

[DOF_power 0]

You have control before you land up on a wet patch, that's perhaps the most important wet track skill - picking the right, driest line. Also aquaplaning is a function of speed, so if your car aquaplanes, you were going too fast. Again, more evidence of the poor wet weather skills of most drievrs on the grid.

Really, especially coming from the self proclaimed technical guru DOH!_Renault_BMW, this is hilarious. Aquaplaning isn't some divine force that makes your car slides up, it is a result of screwing up.

And unless you don't go fast with these tires they'll lose temperature and with them goes the car. Everybody was working hard on the tires and most of them had intermediates when even the full wets wouldn't have been enough.

That's the paradox of today's F1 racing, damned if you push damned if you don't.

The car control of these drivers is just fine. Compared to the past this is a platinum generation.

Really, especially coming from the self proclaimed bulls##ter extraordinaire this is hilarious.

If you continue with this B* I'll come up with footage from the of wet weather GP racing from the 1920s onwards to show you what an idiot troll you are.

[DOF_power 0]

Aquaplaning:

Hydroplaning or aquaplaning by a road vehicle occurs when a layer of water builds between the rubber tires of the vehicle and the road surface, leading to the loss of traction and thus preventing the vehicle from responding to control inputs such as steering, braking or accelerating. It becomes, in effect, an unpowered and unsteered sled.

Hydroplaning also affects aircraft tires in contact with a wet runway and rollercoasters on a wet track.

As a rule of thumb with normal road cars, the speed above which aquaplaning can happen is ten times the square root of the tyre pressure in psi. The FIA Technical Regulations state that a Formula One tyre has to have a pressure of 1.4 bar, which is 20.3 psi.

If this rule of thumb would apply to Formula One cars, that would mean that aquaplaning could happen at a speed as low as 45 km/h.

So there goes poor cavallino's logic.

[BradSpeedMan 6]

You have control before you land up on a wet patch, that's perhaps the most important wet track skill - picking the right, driest line. Also aquaplaning is a function of speed, so if your car aquaplanes, you were going too fast. Again, more evidence of the poor wet weather skills of most drievrs on the grid.

Really, especially coming from the self proclaimed technical guru DOH!_Renault_BMW, this is hilarious. Aquaplaning isn't some divine force that makes your car slides up, it is a result of screwing up.

Kimi used aquaplaning to great effect last year when he overtook Coulthard so dramatically, aquaplaning then stomping on the outer tarmac as the entered the corner. Fact is he was sliding, and it was out of his control.... another fact is, Micheal did too on numorous occasions when he crashed out. It's not a result of poor weather skils, it's given the situation they're in on a wet surface that has no dryer areas on the racing line, as evident with the last laps at Silverstone with the downpour. Everyone went off...

[BradSpeedMan 6]

And unless you don't go fast with these tires they'll lose temperature and with them goes the car. Everybody was working hard on the tires and most of them had intermediates when even the full wets wouldn't have been enough.

That's the paradox of today's F1 racing, damned if you push damned if you don't.

The car control of these drivers is just fine. Compared to the past this is a platinum generation.

Really, especially coming from the self proclaimed bulls##ter extraordinaire this is hilarious.

If you continue with this B* I'll come up with footage from the of wet weather GP racing from the 1920s onwards to show you what an idiot troll you are.

I would'nt even argue this point, even if you're a self-proclaimed tech guru as he states, I'm certainly learning more from you than him on given technical issues... as least it's not as one-tracked as his points are

[cavallino 2]

And unless you don't go fast with these tires they'll lose temperature and with them goes the car. Everybody was working hard on the tires and most of them had intermediates when even the full wets wouldn't have been enough.

What tosh. Who told you the full wets wouldn't have been enough? Why did you state that as if it's a fact? They are using the same tyres, if what you said was true, every single driver would have gone off. That hasn't happened this year. What has happened is that the top drivers have looked very amateurish under top conditions, but there have been people (usually not top drivers) who've done fine. So your theory is bollocks. If one driver can keep it on track, all of them can.

I am sure they can keep the tempearture up without driving like idiots through the hairiest and wettest parts of the track, or they should jsut call off the race and go home, if it's completely impossible as you suggest.

It's not rocket science. You have to slow down in the rain. You don't slow down enough, you crash. If 22 drivers crashed you may have a point.

If you continue with this B* I'll come up with footage from the of wet weather GP racing from the 1920s onwards to show you what an idiot troll you are.

I'll come up with a video of two lesbians going at each other to show what a kind, compassionate beautiful polite young man you are

[Medilloni 6]

You have control before you land up on a wet patch, that's perhaps the most important wet track skill - picking the right, driest line. Also aquaplaning is a function of speed, so if your car aquaplanes, you were going too fast. Again, more evidence of the poor wet weather skills of most drievrs on the grid.

Really, especially coming from the self proclaimed technical guru DOH!_Renault_BMW, this is hilarious. Aquaplaning isn't some divine force that makes your car slides up, it is a result of screwing up.

Not true. However what we seem to have this year is like 2nd rate actors suddenly forced into lead roles, and the few remaining lead actors already well past it.

Trickier, than last year. You'd expect the best in the world to cope. They can't, they've been woeful.

You started a thread with your opinion, not proven facts - we all do that and we're entitled to. But when you make comments like those above you're showing that you have no knowledge or experience to base them on. They are remarkably stupid Cav.

you were going too fast

They're racing drivers, and whilst the skill of modulating the throttle (like, how you use it) to lessen the effect of aquaplaning is a great skill, they're not going to back off!

Aquaplaning isn't some divine force that makes your car slides up

Remarkably stupid comment, and please don't ever drive on a motorway in the wet, you're a danger to other road users if you believe that sh!te.

Get yourself booked in for a trackday when it's wet, drive an open wheeler (Kart, Formula Ford - anything) and tell us you could pick a line between the flooded bits with a visor covered in water. Then let us know if the wet lines were the same on each lap.

coming from the self proclaimed technical guru DOH!_Renault_BMW, this is hilarious

We all get the p1ss taken out of us from time to time, and I wouldn't always agree with DOF's opinions on F1, but at least he has knowledge on this subject that maybe you could learn from rather than spout complete troll-crap.

EDIT: Just seen your last reply, which is even more stupid. "It's not rocket science. You have to slow down in the rain. You don't slow down enough, you crash. If 22 drivers crashed you may have a point." I think you don't understand the concept of driving on the limit in changing conditions Cav.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Massa

[DOF_power 0]

You started a thread with your opinion, not proven facts - we all do that and we're entitled to. But when you make comments like those above you're showing that you have no knowledge or experience to base them on. They are remarkably stupid Cav.

They're racing drivers, and whilst the skill of modulating the throttle (like, how you use it) to lessen the effect of aquaplaning is a great skill, they're not going to back off!

Remarkably stupid comment, and please don't ever drive on a motorway in the wet, you're a danger to other road users if you believe that sh!te.

Get yourself booked in for a trackday when it's wet, drive an open wheeler (Kart, Formula Ford - anything) and tell us you could pick a line between the flooded bits with a visor covered in water. Then let us know if the wet lines were the same on each lap.

We all get the p1ss taken out of us from time to time, and I wouldn't always agree with DOF's opinions on F1, but at least he has knowledge on this subject that maybe you could learn from rather than spout complete troll-crap.

EDIT: Just seen your last reply, which is even more stupid. "It's not rocket science. You have to slow down in the rain. You don't slow down enough, you crash. If 22 drivers crashed you may have a point." I think you don't understand the concept of driving on the limit in changing conditions Cav.

I think we should all unite and stop feeding the troll.

[Medilloni 6]

I think we should all unite and stop feeding the troll.

Naa, he just likes winding people up DOF. Cav's a bit like Zaphod Beeblebrox "Mostly harmless"

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

You started a thread with your opinion, not proven facts - we all do that and we're entitled to. But when you make comments like those above you're showing that you have no knowledge or experience to base them on. They are remarkably stupid Cav.

+1 agree

If you have ever had a car aquaplane (as I have) then you know how little control you have. Scary.

These guys are driving on the limits (if they don't they shouldn't be in F1) so no great shocker that some of them should aquaplane in these conditions. Also F1 cars have a low slung flat bottom (bit like Dribbler ) with a plank which adds to this.

[cavallino 2]

You started a thread with your opinion, not proven facts

Do I go around making claims like 'the track was too wet even for extreme wet tyres' ? Or making baseless claims about the torque curves and drivability of F1 engines?

They're racing drivers, and whilst the skill of modulating the throttle (like, how you use it) to lessen the effect of aquaplaning is a great skill, they're not going to back off!

Oh come on. So doing anything in the rain is excusable? There are no good and bad rain drivers then, just victims of fate? If they don't have that skill they are in the wrong place. Go watch Sutil's drive in Monaco again if you want to know how to drive an F1 car in the rain.

Remarkably stupid comment, and please don't ever drive on a motorway in the wet, you're a danger to other road users if you believe that sh!te.

You know what happened a while ago? I learned to not get provoked So call me stupid, troll whatever, I'll still be civil.

Get yourself booked in for a trackday when it's wet, drive an open wheeler (Kart, Formula Ford - anything) and tell us you could pick a line between the flooded bits with a visor covered in water. Then let us know if the wet lines were the same on each lap.

I am not an F1 driver. Honoured as I am that I am being repeatedly compared to them in this thread, I'm not. I'm crap. Which is why I am siting here munching on chips.

We all get the p1ss taken out of us from time to time, and I wouldn't always agree with DOF's opinions on F1, but at least he has knowledge on this subject that maybe you could learn from rather than spout complete troll-crap.

Your post is boring, a barrage of thinly veiled personal insults. Tell me where I am wrong to expect at least some examples of good driving in the rain from the top drivers, when people like Barrichello and Sutil can keep in on track and drive well?

[Rainmaster 7]

Do I go around making claims like 'the track was too wet even for extreme wet tyres' ? Or making baseless claims about the torque curves and drivability of F1 engines?

Oh come on. So doing anything in the rain is excusable? There are no good and bad rain drivers then, just victims of fate? If they don't have that skill they are in the wrong place. Go watch Sutil's drive in Monaco again if you want to know how to drive an F1 car in the rain.

You know what happened a while ago? I learned to not get provoked So call me stupid, troll whatever, I'll still be civil.

I am not an F1 driver. Honoured as I am that I am being repeatedly compared to them in this thread, I'm not. I'm crap. Which is why I am siting here munching on chips.

Your post is boring, a barrage of thinly veiled personal insults. Tell me where I am wrong to expect at least some examples of good driving in the rain from the top drivers, when people like Barrichello and Sutil can keep in on track and drive well?

But didn't Sutil do really well in Monaco and then crash in Silverstone? So doesn't that suggest that a lot of wet weather driving can be put down to chance? As in if you are unlucky enough to hit a really wet patch then you can lose it easily, even if you're a good wet weather driver like Sutil. I mean Webber, Sutil and Kova all had moments, but I still think their all good wet weather drivers.

[pabloh20 1]

Tell me where I am wrong to expect at least some examples of good driving in the rain from the top drivers, when people like Barrichello and Sutil can keep in on track and drive well?

Well, what was wrong with Lewis and Nick's driving, exactly?

Also, what do you class as good driving in the rain?

The thing is, Cav, it doesn't matter how good a driver is in the wet, there is a certain element of luck involved too. The conditions are variable and if you just happen to be the first driver to a part of the track that has standing water, then sometimes it's the luck of the draw. I am not saying there is no skill in trying to find the grippy parts of the circuit, or being able to catch the car after losing grip, but you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time and not have an awful lot of say in the matter. Schumi was good in the wet, but he got caught out too, however it would be wrong to say because he got caught out a couple of times, that he had no skill in the wet.

[pabloh20 1]

But didn't Sutil do really well in Monaco and then crash in Silverstone? So doesn't that suggest that a lot of wet weather driving can be put down to chance? As in if you are unlucky enough to hit a really wet patch then you can lose it easily, even if you're a good wet weather driver like Sutil. I mean Webber, Sutil and Kova all had moments, but I still think their all good wet weather drivers.

Damn, beat me to it

[DOF_power 0]

Well

Restrictions

Reduced mass should mean less in the way of "bad vibrations". However, the regulations have sensibly nipped any natural tendency among the teams to reach straight for exotic - and expensive - ultra-light materials in the bud. The engineers work with conventional titanium and aluminum alloys, as stipulated in the regulations. The new V8 has to be heavier than its predecessor, even though the 2005 engine had two extra cylinders. This season's powerplants must tip the scales at no less than 95 kilograms. This should include the intake system up to and including the air filter, fuel rail and injectors, ignition coils, sensors and wiring, alternator, coolant pumps and oil pumps. It does not include liquids, exhaust manifolds, heat protection shields, oil tanks, accumulators, heat exchangers and the hydraulic pump.

Added to which, the new regulations stipulate that the engine's center of gravity must be at least 165 mm above the lower edge of the oil sump. The experts had previously managed to lower the ten-cylinder engine's center of gravity to the benefit of the car's handling. However, the longitudinal and lateral position of the V8's centre of gravity has to be in the geometric center of the engine (+/-50 mm). For the technical commission, checking that everything is in order no longer consists of a simple weighing process. Now, making sure that the rules have been observed involves weighing on two levels and making calculations according to the lever principle.

Previously a closely guarded secret, the dimensions of the cylinder bore are now limited to a maximum 98 mm. The gap between the cylinders is also set out in the rulebook - at 106.5 mm (+/- 0.2 mm). The central axis of the crankshaft must not lie any less than 58 mm above the reference plane.

Another critical change in the regulations is the ban on variable intake systems. Known as "trumpets", these systems could previously be used to optimize the car's torque curve. The fixed duct lengths will now make achieving good engine driveability a more exacting challenge. The teams will have to strike a compromise between maximum power and good driveability. Where the best compromise for the pipe lengths is to be found depends on various factors. The track layout and the weather, for example, both play a role. The teams will favor one set of intake pipe lengths for circuits with long straights - like Monza, Indianapolis and Spa - where power is critical, and a different selection for twistier grand prix tracks such as Budapest and Monaco, where driveability relegates raw power to the back seat. The same applies in wet weather. The air intakes are, by definition, part of the engine and are included in its 95-kilogram maximum overall weight, but they can also be changed up to qualifying.

Joining variable intake systems on the black list are variable exhaust systems and variable valve control systems. The power supply to the engine electrics and electronics is limited to a maximum 17 volts and the fuel pump now has to be mechanically operated. Only an actuator may now be used to activate the throttle valve system. With the exception of the electric auxiliary pumps in the petrol tank, all sub-components must now be driven mechanically and directly via the engine.

Now I'll search for the part where Michael Schumacher said the new V8 no TC cars are less driveable then the no TC V10s.

[Rainmaster 7]

Damn, beat me to it

Sorry

[Medilloni 6]

Oh come on. So doing anything in the rain is excusable? There are no good and bad rain drivers then, just victims of fate? If they don't have that skill they are in the wrong place. Go watch Sutil's drive in Monaco again if you want to know how to drive an F1 car in the rain

Answered by previous posters Cav. I didn't mention good and bad drivers, victims of fate, don't have the skill etc etc. Use whatever examples you like to back up your argument, there's always another that's against - the nature of our sport I suppose.

You know what happened a while ago? I learned to not get provoked So call me stupid, troll whatever, I'll still be civil.

From this thread you've used similar wording to mine, so didn't think you'd mind a similar tone...

....What tosh. Who told you the full wets wouldn't have been enough?.....

So your theory is bollocks......

...I'm sure your skin is thick enough fella.

I am not an F1 driver. Honoured as I am that I am being repeatedly compared to them in this thread, I'm not. I'm crap. Which is why I am siting here munching on chips.

If you mean 'you're crap' as a driver, then you have even less credibility in your posts than before. That's a minus figure then.

Your post is boring, a barrage of thinly veiled personal insults. Tell me where I am wrong to expect at least some examples of good driving in the rain from the top drivers, when people like Barrichello and Sutil can keep in on track and drive well?

You would find my post boring, it didn't agree with yours. We've covered the thinly veiled barrage bit, in that you're just as capable, and I didn't mean them as insults, they were simply observations that your knowledge in this subject is opinionated and (at least with regard to aquaplaing) completely wrong - you just hate to admit it. No problem with that. Your ref to Barrichello and Sutil, do we now toddle off and find examples to dispute what you've said, and find examples of races that good/bad drivers have gone off/stayed on? We both know we can do - so a complete waste of time. A bit like this thread.

Enjoy your troll 'n chips.

[dribbler 6]

Aquaplaning isn't some divine force that makes your car slides up, it is a result of screwing up.

Bollocks. Read what everyone has said, mostly Sir Medders. I'm tired.

[AleHop 0]

Aquaplaning is something you can't control much, you can finish your race just there if you find a wall in your way. You can suddenly leave the track or sometimes you can keep going fine.

But it can't be an excuse for Massa last week.

[cavallino 2]

But didn't Sutil do really well in Monaco and then crash in Silverstone? So doesn't that suggest that a lot of wet weather driving can be put down to chance?

No it doesn't. I don't remember what happened to Sutil in Silverstone and I don't care. I am not making a point about his driving skill, I would need to spend time looking at al his races to say anything, my quick reaction is that he crashes too much. The point is he drove brilliantly in Monaco, showing us that it's possible, showing us that the other drivers who couldn't match him (couldn't even stay on track) in better cars are painfully lacking in skills you would expect from the top drivers in the world.

Well, what was wrong with Lewis and Nick's driving, exactly?

Lewis was pretty damn good. Heidfeld? Alright I would say. Compared to Alonso / MS's drives in Hungary '06 (particularly Alonso)? Nowhere.

Also, what do you class as good driving in the rain?

China '06.

The thing is, Cav, it doesn't matter how good a driver is in the wet, there is a certain element of luck involved too.

Do you classify Massa as 'unlucky'? NP Jr?

From this thread you've used similar wording to mine, so didn't think you'd mind a similar tone...

For your opinions. I steer clear of personal insults. If your opinion is crap I'll call it that.

If you mean 'you're crap' as a driver, then you have even less credibility in your posts than before. That's a minus figure then.

Wow, you did Pedantry 101 too? I said I am crap compared to an F1 driver. You know that's what I meant. But we can't resist our little pointless digs, can we?

[DOF_power 0]

Schumacher crashed at Hungary due to his own fault for pushing too hard. There was no need to ram Heidfeld.

And he won China due to a 19 seconds pitstop for Alonso vs a regular 10-11 sec. witch would have give him the race easily by ~5 - 6 seconds.

All of witch is irrelevant because no matter what times where talking about this was a typical wet tires race, with the difference that the driving was quite better compared to the late 70s, 80s, 90s.

[pabloh20 1]

No it doesn't. I don't remember what happened to Sutil in Silverstone and I don't care. I am not making a point about his driving skill, I would need to spend time looking at al his races to say anything, my quick reaction is that he crashes too much. The point is he drove brilliantly in Monaco, showing us that it's possible, showing us that the other drivers who couldn't match him (couldn't even stay on track) in better cars are painfully lacking in skills you would expect from the top drivers in the world.

There's a difference, though, Cav, as people have already mentioned, to when you're driving to win the race in the wet and when you're playing the percentage game. Or put it this way, using Schumi as an example, if you put him back in all the wet races he did, but he wasn't trying to win the race, how many times do you think he would crash?

Lewis was pretty damn good. Heidfeld? Alright I would say. Compared to Alonso / MS's drives in Hungary '06 (particularly Alonso)? Nowhere.

So you're classing Alonso and Schumi as good in the wet, I'm guessing. Ok, take a look at how many races Alonso has won in the wet against the amount of wet races he has done. Or see how many Schumi has won compared to wet races has competed in.

Brawn was quite complimentary about Lewis' drive, I think he's a decent barometer to gauge the performance by. And Lewis wasn't the only one who did well in the race.

China '06.

So what made that so much better than this race?

Do you classify Massa as 'unlucky'? NP Jr?

With regards to Massa, that's a pretty stupid point, if you don't mind me saying. Would you class anyone as unlucky who spun 5 times?

So basically, what you're saying is that in racing in the wet, it's completely black and white - if you finish the race and beat your competitors, you're good, if you didn't finish the race, you're crap? There's never been any instances of a sudden downpoor, standing water on the track that causes a few drivers to be caught out, but then the rain eases and there's a lot less standing water? That's just one example. How about varying downforce levels between the cars, differences in tyre wear, etc, etc. So many variables.

However, you go ahead with your assessment of wet weather racing. If you believe there is no element of luck in it whatsoever, then please be my guest

[c21 0]

I for one am enjoying the drivers having a rough time, I dont want to see the processional lights to flag Schumi-thon that we had for so many years.

Maybe this does it for some, but not me. I was so happy when he retired, (I admit he was a brilliant driver) but I wanted to see a battle among a couple of drivers until the end of the season.

I want to see different drivers on the podium, and the championship leaders having difficulties!

Do you remember when the championship was almost settled by this time of the year? What a bore fest!! What did we have to look forward to then, who was to be second or third?

The drivers have no TC? Boo hoo! Show us how to drive!

I want more races like the one we had on Sunday.

If its your thing to see just one guy go strait from lights to flag, the there is always tractor pulling.