Engine Freeze Loopholes Frustrate Briatore

[DOF_power 0]

ngine freeze loopholes frustrate Briatore

Renault struggling with the current regulations

30/07/08 10:19

Renault seemingly behind in the power stakes

Flavio Briatore has expressed frustration with how some of Renault's Formula One rivals have handled the current so-called 'freeze' on engine development.

The Renault boss told Italy's La Gazzetta dello Sport on Tuesday that the French team conformed with both the spirit and the letter of the rules to halt costly development of the current 2.4 litre V8 engines for several years.

"We were done in," he said.

"Others took another course and are far ahead of us now," Briatore insisted.

It is not clear which teams Briatore is referring to, but earlier this year we reported that a leading outfit may have found a way to creep ahead in the horse power department by requesting changes to its engine on the grounds of improving reliability.

"No-one complained about it," an unnamed engineer told the German magazine Auto Motor und Sport, "for fear that they might also genuinely need to do the modification."

It is interesting that Briatore's comments come just days after it emerged that the FIA is now to begin a process of randomly and thoroughly inspecting the manufacturers' 2008-specification engines.

Source: GMM

[DOF_power 0]

What's Flavio B*ing about ?!

This situation always happened with every cost cutting measure since oh the very first Grand Prix in 1906.

Heck I know for sure that only WWI, the Great Depression and WWII have been the only things to temporarily reduce costs in Grand Prix racing. Costs have been constantly growing since ~1947.

[Quiet One 15]

It would be naive to think that just a couple of sharkfins here and there and some winglets could explain the increase in performance in some cars (most notably Ferrari at the beginning of the season and lately McLaren)

Briatore is just stating the obvious. Some of that performance surely means that they somehow found a way to improve their engines.

Even if the difference in performance is also due to aerodynamic and tire temperature issues, there's without doubt an incidence of engine power that was not present a year ago.

All in all, and coming from Briatore, I'd say he put it in a rather mild way. Either he is not too sure on how to proceed, or he is just getting old. In his old times he would have spewed accusations alll around.

[pabloh20 1]

It would be naive to think that just a couple of sharkfins here and there and some winglets could explain the increase in performance in some cars (most notably Ferrari at the beginning of the season and lately McLaren)

Briatore is just stating the obvious. Some of that performance surely means that they somehow found a way to improve their engines.

Even if the difference in performance is also due to aerodynamic and tire temperature issues, there's without doubt an incidence of engine power that was not present a year ago.

All in all, and coming from Briatore, I'd say he put it in a rather mild way. Either he is not too sure on how to proceed, or he is just getting old. In his old times he would have spewed accusations alll around.

Or it could be that Renault are just bollocks??

[Quiet One 15]

Or it could be that Renault are just bollocks??

Oh shaddap you...you...bollocksteric!

[pabloh20 1]

Oh shaddap you...you...bollocksteric!

Now, there's an insult that has balls

[Max Mosley 2]

I think Briatore is just upset he doesn't have the budget to keep up. He's never been one for sticking slavishly to the rules.

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Oh shaddap you...you...bollocksteric!

Blah, blah, bollocks, blah

[DOF_power 0]

I think Briatore is just upset he doesn't have the budget to keep up. He's never been one for sticking slavishly to the rules.

Yep, a guy like him knows very well that FIA cost cutting measures actually means more costs.

The measures to dump Michelin (= new front weight and aero biased car with completely new suspensions), engine "freeze" and sECU means that costs have gone dramatically up and there's no way to win anything with just 300-330 millions like they did '05 and '06.

I've heard that (according to Honda I belive) to make an engine to last 4 races they have to build more engines as the yields are very poor, only 1 in 3 or 4 engines is actually good; and it's the same for the gearboxes.

With some pushing engine development and the new Traction Control things don't look very peachy for many teams.

I think the 2009 rules will give Ferrari and McLaren an even bigger advantage as engine power aero efficiency and traction control will become much more important to compensate for the loss downforce.

[Max Mosley 2]

I've heard that (according to Honda I belive) to make an engine to last 4 races they have to build more engines as the yields are very poor, only 1 in 3 or 4 engines is actually good; and it's the same for the gearboxes.

Oh right. How does this happen exactly, DOF? Why don't their engines/boxes turn out well and how do they test them without wearing them down too much?

And in '05, '06 Renault probably also benefited from their Michelin relationship.

[raw 0]

The engines are tested and runned on a dyno - it starts to work better after some miles under load anyway.

It was always like that with engines - they've built few and picked the best one for the race.

Now it surely takes more to build a really good one for 2 races, but it can't be like 3 out of 4 are completely rubbish - it's impossible cause it would mean that whole engine project is really too close to the limit and it would be just a question of luck if even the best out of 4 would survive gp weekend. There has to be a safety margin. Besides current engine rules (minimum weight especially) are probably giving even too much space for increased reliability.

Anyway engine freeze is one of the most stupid regulations FIA made this decade.

[AleHop 0]

And in '05, '06 Renault probably also benefited from their Michelin relationship.

They benefited from someone else and I'm not talking about Fisi there.

Now the prodigal son is back but I agree with DOF on that more changes and restrictions are not in the benefit of Renault and the likes.

[maure 1]

It would be naive to think that just a couple of sharkfins here and there and some winglets could explain the increase in performance in some cars (most notably Ferrari at the beginning of the season and lately McLaren)

Briatore is just stating the obvious. Some of that performance surely means that they somehow found a way to improve their engines.

Even if the difference in performance is also due to aerodynamic and tire temperature issues, there's without doubt an incidence of engine power that was not present a year ago.

All in all, and coming from Briatore, I'd say he put it in a rather mild way. Either he is not too sure on how to proceed, or he is just getting old. In his old times he would have spewed accusations alll around.

I must agree with everything you said, particularly with "Briatore is just stating the obvious". The only thing I would change is the "notably" in "most notably Ferrari at the beginning of the season and lately McLaren" as it seems to me that "noticeably" would be more accurate.

I read somewhere that FB claims his team is playing by the rules when others aren't. Personally, I don't think anyone is playing by the rules and, more so, if they can actually fund the "goofy detours".

What's clear, in any case, is that Renault is one of the teams most hurt by the engine freeze and miscellanea screwups that make up the rule book today...

And in '05, '06 Renault probably also benefited from their Michelin relationship.

Not just probably... but at least then anyone could use whatever tyres they wanted and, thus, no restrictions to violate there.

[Quiet One 15]

I must agree with everything you said, particularly with "Briatore is just stating the obvious". The only thing I would change is the "notably" in "most notably Ferrari at the beginning of the season and lately McLaren" as it seems to me that "noticeably" would be more accurate.

I stand corrected

I read somewhere that FB claims his team is playing by the rules when others aren't. Personally, I don't think anyone is playing by the rules and, more so, if they can actually fund the "goofy detours".

I doubt that FB could ever claiming that he is "playing by the rules". We all know who he is! On the other hand, he is the kind of guy capable of saying such a lie with a straight face...

Anyways, I think the problem with Renault is not that they are the only team playing by the rules. It is more that they are less efficient at cheating (or "finding loopholes" so as not to hurt any sensible minds around)

What's clear, in any case, is that Renault is one of the teams most hurt by the engine freeze and miscellanea screwups that make up the rule book today...

Indeed.

[DOF_power 0]

Oh right. How does this happen exactly, DOF? Why don't their engines/boxes turn out well and how do they test them without wearing them down too much?

And in '05, '06 Renault probably also benefited from their Michelin relationship.

a]

First, well to make the engines have good yields and reduce costs means to give up the power-torque war and be at a disadvantage compared to the opposition.

Second it's the nature of the V8 architecture and current rules.

According to Dr. B. Goeschel of BMW F1 The V10 entered the critical vibration area at 12000 rpms and that only lasted till 14000 rpms, before and after the 12k-14k zone it is all smooth reving whereas the V8s enters the critical vibration at 16000 rpms and this never ends; so in effect a 20000+ rpms V10 was less stressed then a current V8 reving between 16k and 19k, and they have to rev higher (per torque-power ) /be in this range due to the reduction of displacement, 15% reduction in air intakes and ban on variable intakes-timing-exhaust.

b]

Ofcourse they benefited from their relationship with Michelin.

During the tire war tire manufacturers were creating up to 200 types of compounds, and it wasn't so much as RF1 optimissing for the Michelins (though it did happened) as much as it was Michelin creating special custom tires for the clients.

So the financial burden was much more on Michelin and Bridgestone whereas now it's much more on the teams (to optimise their cars for the 4 types of current compunds). Only Bridgestone had cost savings.

It's the same for the electronics, the old TC meant costs were a burden for the electronics partner (like Magneti Marelli; all ECUs where custom made adapted to the each teams variables) wheareas now the new McLaren loophole TC (alltough very clever) means teams will have to support these costs inhouse.

[DOF_power 0]

I doubt that FB could ever claiming that he is "playing by the rules". We all know who he is! On the other hand, he is the kind of guy capable of saying such a lie with a straight face...

Anyways, I think the problem with Renault is not that they are the only team playing by the rules. It is more that they are less efficient at cheating (or "finding loopholes" so as not to hurt any sensible minds around)

Yep.

In other words:

"We suck and need help, I don't like losing anymore. - Flav."

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

It is more that they are less efficient at cheating

Like it. My nomination for post of the year

[Grabthaw the Hammerslayer 4]

Yep.

In other words:

"We suck and need help, I don't like losing anymore. - Flav."

Or "Fernando, I need that 6 tenths NOW!!"

[mikathegreat2 2]

They benefited from someone else and I'm not talking about Fisi there.

Now that this someone is back with Renault, they've been doing worse than last season & don't just straight away say Piquet cos...... well the majority of Renault's crap season is his fault! Thought I was getting somewhere for a sec

[pabloh20 1]

Like it. My nomination for post of the year

Is he back to being the wise one again???

It is strange, though, Renault used to be so good at cheating

Or "Fernando, I need that 6 tenths NOW!!"

What's even more worrying and quite possible is that without Nando going back, they could have been worse

[DOF_power 0]

What's even more worrying and quite possible is that without Nando going back, they could have been worse

Yep.

[la force supreme des mclaren 0]

FIA gives Hamilton's engine the all-clear

Lewis Hamilton's engine has been given the all clear by the FIA following its routine examination prior to the Hungarian Grand Prix.

As autosport.com reported last week, the FIA has begun a series of random tests of the power-units of the car manufacturers in F1 to ensure they are complying with the freeze on development.

Mercedes-Benz were the first manufacturer whose engine was picked to be examined, with Lewis Hamilton's race-winning unit from the German Grand Prix sealed after the race for a detailed examination by the FIA.

The sport's governing body duly conducted an exhaustive test of the engine and its parts, as well as comparing it with the engine that was submitted to the FIA by Mercedes-Benz's High Performance Engines division earlier this year.

The FIA confirmed in Hungary on Thursday that all parts of the engine conformed with the regulations, and there was no disparity between the power unit submitted before the season and the one being used now.

------------------------------------------------------

Naughty ol'Flavio complaining as always.....

[Max Mosley 2]

What's even more worrying and quite possible is that without Nando going back, they could have been worse

Yes. But don't let people off the hook of their own logic now that it leads to a conclusion they don't like! Before the season many people attributed the changing fortunes of Renault and McLaren to the drivers, at least in large part. Now that McLaren are stronger than ever and Renault have gone backwards after a rookie(!) team leader was swapped with the most technically gifted driver on the grid, surely we can see that whatever contribution the drivers make to the car's development must be quite small in comparison with the rest of the team.

Thanks for the info DOF! Also I think Renault benefited especially from Michelin, being French.

[Jean Todt 4]

Yes. But don't let people off the hook of their own logic now that it leads to a conclusion they don't like! Before the season many people attributed the changing fortunes of Renault and McLaren to the drivers, at least in large part. Now that McLaren are stronger than ever and Renault have gone backwards after a rookie(!) team leader was swapped with the most technically gifted driver on the grid, surely we can see that whatever contribution the drivers make to the car's development must be quite small in comparison with the rest of the team.

Thanks for the info DOF! Also I think Renault benefited especially from Michelin, being French.

Rubbish.

Look at the performance difference between Ferrari and Mclaren, Mclaren have found ways to use their set of tyres more effeciently when compared to Ferrari, Ferrari, a team who are always considered to have an unfair advantage of having Bridgestone's EXTRA support.

Ofcourse I still think Michelins were better and even now if they remained they would have trashed Bridgestones.

I heard F360 Stradale set a faster time when compared to the F430 around the TOP GEAR Circuit because the previous generation 360 was using a set of Pirellis compared to more powerful 430 using a set of Bridgestones.

Buy a set of bridgestones if you need a set of tyres to last extra 5000kms.

[Max Mosley 2]

Bridgestone were well known to support Ferrari. When the other top teams were using rival rubber.