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maure

Belgium Gp - Spa-francorchamps

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When he was 4 points away he was pushing to get closer to the duo, after Kimi's crash he slwed down...

No, AJ, I mean it's like the old 6pt game in footy. Because it was Lewis in front of him who is leading in the wdc, if Massa gets 2nd then he loses 2pts to Lewis, whereas if he overtakes him then he gains 2pts on him, so the net gain is 4pts.

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The WDC isn't won in one race. It is a season of fast smart driving that wins the WDC. Massa has dominated races on the track this year, and in this case he has won when his car was not as quick as the others. That is the mark of a true champion. Next race, Fresh Engine, Pole positon and he will win leaving the others fighting for second and third. That is my prediction. Then all I will hear is how Massa can only win from pole in perfect conditons, yada yada yada.

I never said it was won in one race, however, there comes a time when you are trailing in the wdc and the person you are trailing is ahead of you in the race when you have to take a chance. Personally, I think at this stage of the season, a net gain of 4pts is not to be sniffed at. He may yet still have to take that chance, depending on how the remaining races go.

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No, AJ, I mean it's like the old 6pt game in footy. Because it was Lewis in front of him who is leading in the wdc, if Massa gets 2nd then he loses 2pts to Lewis, whereas if he overtakes him then he gains 2pts on him, so the net gain is 4pts.

Fair enough. But i think of as it Massa is not that good in the rain, he knows that, we know that. What the point of pushing his car and having a potiental disaster?? He had one 2 races ago due to his engine, he doesn't need another one...

Also i was just checking f1.com, and i just realised Kimi has only won 2 races till now...

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I never said it was won in one race, however, there comes a time when you are trailing in the wdc and the person you are trailing is ahead of you in the race when you have to take a chance. Personally, I think at this stage of the season, a net gain of 4pts is not to be sniffed at. He may yet still have to take that chance, depending on how the remaining races go.

Isn't there 5 races left still!!!!!! THis thing is a long way from being over. I do predict a new points leader after the next one though :D

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Isn't there 5 races left still!!!!!! THis thing is a long way from being over. I do predict a new points leader after the next one though :D

Massa already lead the points table this year..... And no one else is close enough to get the lead....

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Yeah but I think he was just lucky to be there. It was never going to last, and I doubt Kubica himself will be surprised not to be in the hunt any more. He drove very well for the 1st half of the year and I'm sure he'll be closer next year.

On other matters, I'm surprised there's so much whining going on about Kimi and Lewis. I thought it was great stuff. Would that every race were like that.

Are you implying that unless a car is a Ferrari or McLaren, any podium finish is just luck? Leading both championships is luck? being on podium in most races this season is LUCK?

What Scotch are you drinking today? I want some!

BMW and Kubica were the most consistent team for the first half of the season. F1 is not just about going very fast around the track - just ask Hamilton or Massa about 2007. And that's what I am mostly upset about. It's not BMW' speed - they still have it. It's the consistency. And Kubica's results dropped off sharply after Montreal - are you implying he did not want to lead the championship? If you analyze the races, you'll see that Kubica continue NOT making any mistakes, but the car prep is all over the place - something that has not happened before this year.

Yes, Kubica is lucky to drive BMW. Kubica was also voted in most official polls as a the no. 1 driver for the first 1/2 of the year - it's not my opinion, it's a fact. SO, the facts do not support your theory.

sorry.

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Are you implying that unless a car is a Ferrari or McLaren, any podium finish is just luck? Leading both championships is luck? being on podium in most races this season is LUCK?

What Scotch are you drinking today? I want some!

BMW and Kubica were the most consistent team for the first half of the season. F1 is not just about going very fast around the track - just ask Hamilton or Massa about 2007. And that's what I am mostly upset about. It's not BMW' speed - they still have it. It's the consistency. And Kubica's results dropped off sharply after Montreal - are you implying he did not want to lead the championship? If you analyze the races, you'll see that Kubica continue NOT making any mistakes, but the car prep is all over the place - something that has not happened before this year.

Yes, Kubica is lucky to drive BMW. Kubica was also voted in most official polls as a the no. 1 driver for the first 1/2 of the year - it's not my opinion, it's a fact. SO, the facts do not support your theory.

sorry.

I have to disagree with you, I find that after Montreal BMW has lost its pace to the front. This is in part because they are almost entirely already working on the 09 car. I think with the win in Montreal they were able to check off the box next to "get first race win" and so they started focusing on next years car. There is actually a great article about it in the august issue of F1 Raceing

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And Hamilton got penalized. This isn't right. Sure, his maneouver was questionable... but that's it.

It is a bad thing when _again_ races are decided outside the track. FIA sucks. This is going downhill fast, very fast.

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I have to disagree with you, I find that after Montreal BMW has lost its pace to the front. This is in part because they are almost entirely already working on the 09 car. I think with the win in Montreal they were able to check off the box next to "get first race win" and so they started focusing on next years car. There is actually a great article about it in the august issue of F1 Raceing

Actually, I completely agree with you as to the results. However, I think ythe cause of it is a poor car prep. The "pace" is not what it used to be , but when BMW gets things done right (like chancing on the right set up, right tire pressure, and not spending 20 seconds refueling in the pits) both Nick and Rob get in the top five, with one most likely on podium. Unfortunately, it seems that since Montreal BMW has difficulty prepping TWO competitive cars for the race. Now, let me flip-flop on luck - Kubi was VERY lucky to get the sixth today (but he should have been 4th) and incredibly, he is THIRD in WDC. Now, if only BME can muster enough engineers and qualified mechanics to have a working fuel rig and the right tire pressure for the next 5 races...

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And Hamilton got penalized. This isn't right. Sure, his maneouver was questionable... but that's it.

It is a bad thing when _again_ races are decided outside the track. FIA sucks. This is going downhill fast, very fast.

I don't think it is going downhill. It was in the basement last year, and it continues to be in the basement this year. How many races last year were determined by the stewards??

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Oh, and I am waffling on Hamilton penalty. It's completely a judgement call, IMHO.

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I don't think it is going downhill. It was in the basement last year, and it continues to be in the basement this year. How many races last year were determined by the stewards??

I agree and that's why I said _again_.

It's a disgrace.

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Grgrrr... Alonso didn't win the World Championship last year because of an arguable penalty at Hungaroring. :doh:

But if he hadn't cut that chicane he wouldn't have been so close behind Raikkonen to use his slipstream. :meeting:

I don't trust FIA, I think Hamilton took advantage of his action although he didn't break any rule, he broke the spirit of the rules but it is arguable. TBH I wish it hadn't happened because I was confident Kimi would hold 1st for the last 2-3 laps remaining. :meh:

He was pushed out by Kimi as he was already ahead of him, watch the video. Yes you are right about slipstream, but didn't he back off for a full car length? First of all I don't even think (my opinion) he should have given back his place to Kimi. Well, its over, I would like to see how Mclaren respond to Ferrari on track. Rest is all crap. Wouldn't waste my time discusing this again.

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Look at Massa's stats since he joined Ferrari and raced against MS in equal equipment. He has nothing to be ashamed about, and deserves to be where he is..

????

Give me a break, Hamilton had proven nothing before he got that seat. Just tell me what did Hamilton do to earn the best seat in Formula one??????

Once given the seat he has performed well. However last year was the biggest choke I have ever witnessed in F1. That is what I remember.

Yeah, he was fishing for carps from a pond in Mclaren Technology center, thats when Ron realised his potential and put him in the best car.

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???? Hamilton and KR drove like rookies in the rain today. I am pretty objective actually. Trust me I never coined the phrase Golden Boy.

YHR, what are you on about???? Hamilton and Kimi were RACING in the WET!!!! Balls out!!!!!What did Massa do, I never saw another F1 driver cruise as slowly as he did in those cicumstances!!!

and what the hell is this about Hamilton getting a penalty.....I'm bloody shocked to the bone!!!!!!! he let Kimi thru and then overtook him again!!!

What the hell is going on in F1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Yes. For touching Hamilton's car and not utilising it to his strength and forcing Lewis into the wall.

ITV are complete twats, my ears are bleeding with all the screaming Fat Arse Allen and Muppet Martin were doing for Hamilton. Oh, now Suckhole Steve is doing what he does best - talking bulls##t. :rolleyes:

Kimi, you're a ****ing idiot. You deserve to play second fiddle to Massa (as much as it hurts to say).

no Girl Racer, he went for the win...all or nothing, this is how I came to love my boy....this was racing, unfortunately he crashed.....lovely stuff...

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Fair dinkum Raw, I've looked at the replay (GR ordered me to, I couldn't resist her :P ) and I'd first seen it as Hamster alongside (completely) until he left the track. Strangely (!) Hamilton was fractionally ahead on the outside just before turn-in with Kimi fractionally ahead just before the apex, and about half a car ahead as they left the apex, Kimi rightly defended.

Having said that, he (Hamster) was so commited at the start of the manouver he left himself with nowhere else to go and backing off probably wasn't an option (given the wet track) - maybe he relied on Kimi leaving room, maybe it was brain fade, but it was a bold attempt :lol:

The penalty? There's no way I could agree, it's meant to be full-on in F1, those fighting to overtake are bound to find themselves in no-mans-land like today, and if drivers can't be 'creative' and go for it, then we'll have even less overtaking. I'd like to see the rule qualified - I mean the bit about giving the position back, Lewis did that, but not enough? If so, how much should it be? What a nightmare for the drivers............

My mitigating circumstances are, that I was so excited about the possibility of an overtaking move about to happen I squezed the ketchup clean out of my bacon butty, thereby missing the half a car in front bit :P

I myself think the penalty is unwarranted, see the highlighted point and nice post medilloni. ;)

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I think you have two choices here; Accept the decision or move on. Lewis would not have been in the position he was had he not yielded at that specific point of the track. The point i'm makling is that if he wanted to pass Kimi fairly and wthout controversy, he should have waited until after la source and bided his time for another lap. A tentative Kimi, in a Ferrari, in the wet will always lose out to the superior wet weather feel of Hamilton and his McLaren that is seemingly more compliant in touchy-feely conditions.

It's no good saying that Lewis wouldn't have thought of that in the heat of the moment because, in the heat of the moment, he had the prescence of mind to use the momentum he had coming out of bus stop to pass Kimi in la source.

I'm trying to put some rationale into a situation that is clearly making Lewis fans livid, especially the ones paranoid about the FIA's intentions.

I'm utterly impartial. I think Lewis is mighty and that to have a race decided in this way is unfortunate but i admire the boldness of the FIA's convictions. They know that thye are accused of favouring Ferrari, they know that this will disappoint many. But putting that aside, it is a decsion based on logical reasons.

That's my opinion. Please beg to differ, it's what we're here for.

Console yourselves, Lewis fans, Kimi is finished for this year. Domenicali's decsion has been made for him. The resulting points differential has made things tantalizing. The buffer Lewis had to allow for races when Ferrari are too strong, has gone. I'm inclined to say that Felipe is looking favourite......but then, Kimi was today.

It may be a golden year afterall.

Let it rain.

no Dribbler, Lewis was alongside Kimi when the entered the corner, he then was given no room and cut the chicane. As he joined the track he lifts, Kimi gets ahead and...nevermind if he got a tow or slipstream, overtook Kimi.

The big point is he was alongside Kimi when they entered the corner, yet he lifted to let Kimi be first......if Kimi was fast enough he would've stayed ahead, unfortunately the mercedes was better equipped in those cicumstances...

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Having fallen asleep through the race, and waking up in the press conference, I had to wait to see the replay just played in the PM here in good ol' NZ to see what all the controversy was about.

My take is that he committed to the corner, and if anything Kimi squeezed him out OR the bobble that can be seen from the slow motion side shot was him touching the kerb.....then Ham is in front, but he lets Kimi by COMPLETELY - enough so that Kimi can jink left and right INFRONT and across Hams bow. Thats not 3/4's as some people have posted. He then repassed Kimi as he was driving a straight line, not a jink line that Kimi was doing in defense of the position. Kimi then tags Ham on the hairpin and says "cheers, that was fun, see ya at the bar".

I agree here with Brad, and look towards the decision from the appeal. IF the championship comes down to this race, then it's a bit hollow should Massa win. But that's racing. And Kimi's not entirely out of it yet either. I don't care what that Domenchilli fulla says - Massa can still F it up for himself, on his own, and without the team helping him! :P

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<h2 class="uppercase clear">Forgive Them, For They Not Know What They Have Done </h2>

Sunday 7th September 2008

In stripping Lewis Hamilton of his victory in the Belgian GP, race stewards have made a mockery of what was once a sport...

This is not what sport or F1 is meant to be. Winning a race should be a black-and-white business. The driver of the car that crosses the line in first place is the winner and the glory is his. End of story. It is a sacrosanct principle and any violation of it can only be considered - let alone applied - in the most extreme of circumstances and with the supported of the most overwhelming weight of evidence. The results of a grand prix should be determined, like in any other sport, in its sporting arena, not in unseen backrooms by unknown officials. For that is politics, not sport, not F1.

This is the void and guiding principle that the race stewards of the Belgian GP leapt over - by their own impetus, it should be noted, for there was no protest made by Ferrari or any of McLaren's other competitors - when they delivered their notification of 'an investigation into an incident between cars 1 and 22' just at the moment Lewis Hamilton was being physically blocked by a Spa race official from celebrating victory with his McLaren engineers. That moment in the pits - the pits, a jobsworth denying the appreciation of sporting achievement - would gain a poignant resonance as night fell. Winning the already-quickly-forgotten Greatest Grand Prix in Living Memory will be the cause of obituaries rather than celebration.

The blurring of the distinction between politics and sport in F1 had already become a popular lament long before Sunday. F1 is a spectacularly political sport. Yet rarely, if ever, has it made such a leap from one to the other based on so little. For where is the justification in stripping Hamilton of victory? No, do not misread 'where' for 'what' nor confuse the plea for justification as the herald for further debate on whether Hamilton gained an advantage after he cut the chicane. Instead, consider the lack of justification cited by the stewards, who, remaining cloaked in anonymity, are still yet to offer any explanation for their punishment other than cite the terms of the offence and announce its punishment. Not a word of insight has been forthcoming, nor a single piece of telemetry or testimony in support.

Given their absolute abuse of sport's most absolute principle, that silence is deafening. If the decision to strip Hamilton of his victory was to be made then the evidence had to be overwhelming, so clinical that it prevented any dissent. That none has been supplied, that identifying the winner of the Belgian GP has been reduced to a matter of debate, lays the sport bare.

And the debate will rage on, as perplexing as well as an unacceptable state of affairs given that the terms of the debate are unknown. For what is it that Hamilton has been found guilty of? Observing, as per the 30-word press release the FIA filed announcing that the result of the Belgian GP was no longer the result of the Belgian GP, that Hamilton was guilty of "cutting the chicane" tells us nothing that none of us have not already seen. The stewards - and their Ferrari-supporting apologists - might well retort that they do not have to provide any commentary other than a verdict. But that misses the point and avoids entirely the repercussions and significance of a decision which makes explanation essential.

Is it that Hamilton has been punished for deliberately seeking an advantage by deliberately steering over the chicane? Or is it for inadvertently gaining an advantage by avoiding an avoidable accident? Is it for gaining an advantage but not satisfactorily or adequately surrendering it? Or is it that he has been found guilty of exploiting an advantage that was neither his by right nor no longer in his possession, deemed to have broken the spirit of the rules if not the wording?

Or is it due to motives altogether different, altogether more political? It must be, for, in the absence of all other explanation, only that suspicion can begin to explain the desecration of what was once a sport.

Pete Gill Planet F1

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Alan333 - I'm not a Ferrari fan, I'm a BMW fan. Also - poor kimi for flying off the track after leading for 43 (or 42) laps.

I can then only assume you're anti Hamilton or have a bizarre desire to see races decided by stewards rather than drivers. This issue doesn't seem to me to be a matter of opinion you either want drivers to race hard or you don't. The Stewards decision at Spa does not assist hard racing in fact it makes a farce out of the sport you say you support.

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Well ignoring all the fanboy arguments - I have some questions:

What was Lewis supposed to have done to "undo" the advantage that he gained? OK, so he dropped back, but at what point does his self-imposed penalty become acceptable? e.g. how far did Lewis have to drop back for a penalty to be avoided?

These are important points as this could/will affect every driver in a similar situation.

Unfortunately another subjective judgment made by FIA - would be better if they could be clearer and more consistent with the rules and their interpretation.

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