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maure

Belgium Gp - Spa-francorchamps

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Ok, let's, for now at least until it has been proven/disproven, accept the telemetry that has been published as fact, which shows Kimi being 6.7kph faster than Lewis crossing the line. Now, if this incident had happened during the dry, even if Lewis was in Kimi's slipstream (though I can't imagine there would be that much slipstream advantage in that short distance) would he have been able to make up 6.7kph in acceleration and braking over Kimi from the line to la source, in the dry?

Accepting that speed, what

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It would vary, even from gear to gear, but I would imagine in this instance the overriding factor would be the ability to cope with the prevalent conditions.

Cut the Ronspeak!

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Well, my view is, that if it had been in the dry, then Lewis wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell of overtaking Kimi into la source, so I expect there would have been no penalty, because everyone would agree that Lewis did not gain an advantage, presumably. However, the exact same manoeuvre in the tricky conditions in Spa did lend itself to an overtaking opportunity. To me that just indicates that Kimi was struggling more in the wet, not that Lewis inherently gained any speed or slipstream advantage from cutting the chicane.

Well my issue all along has been that he didn't even try to get back on course and accelerated across the run off area. That is a breach of fair play. But what do I know. Bernie has had them pave everything that doesn't move, I can see how a young driver juiced on adrenaline, couldn't help himself. He is young, but he has to start making some decisions on what kind of a driver he wants to be. What kind of man are you Lewis. I am hoping you will grow into someone whos own personal morals are higher then the FIA. Do that and you will be rid of them.(almost)

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It would vary, even from gear to gear, but I would imagine in this instance the overriding factor would be the ability to cope with the prevalent conditions.

Then speed is also irrelevant to your analyses, since it also varies. And, by the way, i tought we were discussing if Lewis got some advantage in his manoeuver, not their skills in the rain.

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OK, it's either this or for the nth time I'd have to explain why global warming/cooling are cyclical, have nothing to do with my SUV, latest discoveries show that greenhouse gases increases ALWAYS follow a period of warming, not preceede it, etc etc, and I am not in thE mood. SOOOOO....

I watched reruns. My first thought was : "Oh no, stewards again are trying favor Ferrari." THEN I watched again. It's clear to me that Hamilton was NOT pushed by Kimi - Kimi was 1/3 of a car AHEAD of Hamilton at the time he run out of room, and I doubt anybody vcould have seen Hami where NO car should have been. LOOK at the stills or pause that vid, and it's as clear as day. It's NOT my "opinion" - it's right there on the screen unless somebody doctored all of the footage. Hamilton seems to believe that at the moment he decides to pass somebody, he should be given a free lane (see him and Kubica in GP Japan last year). Then I looked at the vid 3 to 4 times and I saw the same thing every time - Hamilton cuts chicane, gets next to Kimi, feathers back just behinf Ferrari, drafts, jiggles right then left and slingshoots past Kimi. He could have NEVER been able to do it (four other drivers tried that at the same spot this race and weren't even close) without cutting the chicane and then pacing Kimi actually adjusting his speed to make sure he WILL have an advantage . Believe me, I tried to be as objective as I could, and I can fully justify stewards decision.

SOOOOO, I was very happy when Kubi made a statement today that rules are what they are, and that MOST drivers always makes sure that there is not a shadow of a doubt that after cutting the chicane, they DID NOT gain any advantage (he said "there should be a wall there, and so just still being in the race is an advantage"). Hamilton's reaction IS very arrogant, and the British press is shameless. IF it was a judgemnt call, the stewards have an ABSOLUTE right to make it - right or wrong. Once we (or the press) start double guessing the stewards, the F1 will suffer. Hey, every sport involving the refs is subjective (like soccer - we, Poles , will NEVER forgive that baldie Webb for an incomprehensible call against Austria) so JUST GET OVER IT!!!

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Well my issue all along has been that he didn't even try to get back on course and accelerated across the run off area. That is a breach of fair play. But what do I know. Bernie has had them pave everything that doesn't move, I can see how a young driver juiced on adrenaline, couldn't help himself. He is young, but he has to start making some decisions on what kind of a driver he wants to be. What kind of man are you Lewis. I am hoping you will grow into someone whos own personal morals are higher then the FIA. Do that and you will be rid of them.(almost)

Have a look at the onboard video that Argento posts either in this thread or the actual incident thread - it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lewis does not accelerate across the run off area. So presumably, now that it is not a breach of fair play, as you put it, then you are ok with the move?

Then speed is also irrelevant to your analyses, since it also varies. And, by the way, i tought we were discussing if Lewis got some advantage in his manoeuver, not their skills in the rain.

Unfortunately, you are responding to something I didn't say. I never said that acceleration was irrelevant, I said it varies, that means it varies for both cars, so it's impossible to put a direct figure on it. However, it has been the accepted fact for some time now that the Ferrari is the best engine, so it's hard to see how the Ferrari going 6.7kph faster than the McLaren over the start finish line, suddenly lost an advantage.

Also, I wasn't even discussing their skills in the rain, more the fact that the Ferrari was struggling anyway compared to the McLaren, so I think Lewis would have got him into la source even following him through the bus stop chicane.

It's all a moot point, anyway, because the rules do not state 'getting an advantage'.

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Have a look at the onboard video that Argento posts either in this thread or the actual incident thread - it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lewis does not accelerate across the run off area. So presumably, now that it is not a breach of fair play, as you put it, then you are ok with the move?

Looking at the video it appeared to me he accelerated, I'll take your word he did not. This is a moot point to me because regardless if he accelerated the questions still remains, was it fair. By cutting the chicane he put himself in a positon to immediately pass KR. My value judgment on this is that it was not fair, and yours must be that it was. Fundemental differences, that you and I could argue for years and never come to an alignment.

I was hoping if Hamilton was going to be a WDC, he wasn't going to emulate MS. Apparently his values are the same, and if I don't witness a sporting change in the man then I fear his career will be hounded by marshal decisions. I had little respect for MS as a man, but as a driver he was the best. Maybe Hamilton will fall into that category too. He is young, we will see.

Kubica's comment about still being in the race after a move like that is a gained advantage in itself. Put a wall there and see what would have happened.

I respect your opinion that what Hamilton did was fair, but I do not share it.

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Revealed today by Ian Phillips, ex Jordan, that Charlie Whiting did issue a directive a few years ago that passes could not take place on the next corner.

It seems as if it was never written down though.

I am not sure if it has been verified yet, but if McLaren did ask Whiting for confirmation that the move was ok, does this mean Charlie forgot his own directive?? :lol:

No passes on the next corner is reasonably fair. If the next corner is at the end of a long straight, then it's tough luck, but fair.

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Looking at the video it appeared to me he accelerated, I'll take your word he did not. This is a moot point to me because regardless if he accelerated the questions still remains, was it fair. By cutting the chicane he put himself in a positon to immediately pass KR. My value judgment on this is that it was not fair, and yours must be that it was. Fundemental differences, that you and I could argue for years and never come to an alignment.

I was hoping if Hamilton was going to be a WDC, he wasn't going to emulate MS. Apparently his values are the same, and if I don't witness a sporting change in the man then I fear his career will be hounded by marshal decisions. I had little respect for MS as a man, but as a driver he was the best. Maybe Hamilton will fall into that category too. He is young, we will see.

Kubica's comment about still being in the race after a move like that is a gained advantage in itself. Put a wall there and see what would have happened.

I respect your opinion that what Hamilton did was fair, but I do not share it.

Fair enough, I respect that.

Regarding Lewis, I am afraid you're going to be disappointed. If anything, he seems more arrogant than MS to me, but that's just my opinion. Schumi was my favourite driver, not for his ethics or personality, but purely for his driving. In my eyes, such was the skill, that it enabled me to overlook his shortfalls. Lewis seems to have something of a potential talent, but I am not going to like his personality, I think.

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Fair enough, I respect that.

Regarding Lewis, I am afraid you're going to be disappointed. If anything, he seems more arrogant than MS to me, but that's just my opinion. Schumi was my favourite driver, not for his ethics or personality, but purely for his driving. In my eyes, such was the skill, that it enabled me to overlook his shortfalls. Lewis seems to have something of a potential talent, but I am not going to like his personality, I think.

We agree on that. The guy has lots of talent. I am afraid I may be only able to respect his record.

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