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cavallino

The Actual Incident Between Lewis And Kimi

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Yes I do and all race fans KNOW who won the race. Forget rules for a second and look to your excitement about racing and you too will Know Lewis Hamilton won that race. This is a service I provide for free you know.

Well... I can't agree. We all KNOW that Kimi and Ferrari won the race, if thats the case. If you want to take out the incident, we may as well say it didn't rain either.

Your view of a 'racing' fan doesn't make sense to me.

I can't speak for everybody.... so I won't.

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Well... I can't agree. We all KNOW that Kimi and Ferrari won the race, if thats the case. If you want to take out the incident, we may as well say it didn't rain either.

Your view of a 'racing' fan doesn't make sense to me.

I can't speak for everybody.... so I won't.

I quite like Kimi and I'm not going to have the slanging match you seem to want but Kimi was beaten fair and square and I didn't say to take out the incident, I asked you to think of it as racing not a courtroom battle.

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I quite like Kimi and I'm not going to have the slanging match you seem to want but Kimi was beaten fair and square and I didn't say to take out the incident, I asked you to think of it as racing not a courtroom battle.

:lol:

I don't want a slanging match. Its you that can't accept the facts! I'd win anyway (that was a joke, btw) ;)

I actually quite like Hamilton, but not when he does STUPID things! How can I think of it as racing, when it wasn't??!! The sooner you see that, the better!

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What can you say about the time he gained in that move? he was suppose to be behind Kimi at the Chicane en he was suppose to start his acceleration later than Kimi giving Kimi a gap but he made that gap disappear by cutting the chicane, at that point were he let Kimi pass he was suppose to be several cars behind but he was just inches behind using the advantage he gained by cutting the chicane, if you don't see this you should be supporting FA.

what about Kimi taking the run off area and returning to track and overtaking Lewis?

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Are you seriously saying that after all that has happened, you will take a Mclaren press release at face value?????

You Mclaren fans are something else..

Atleast I am not a Ferrari fan.

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Atleast I am not a Ferrari fan.

He said once he didn't give a s##t but I supposse his nickname means something. :eusa_think:

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:lol:

I don't want a slanging match. Its you that can't accept the facts! I'd win anyway (that was a joke, btw) ;)

I actually quite like Hamilton, but not when he does STUPID things! How can I think of it as racing, when it wasn't??!! The sooner you see that, the better!

Ok you win Massa officially won the race by not overtaking anyone and doing nothing interesting at all. How much fun is that. Let all the drivers line up in order of speed and drive around behind the safety car until the chequered flag drops. No-one does anything impetuous and every race is won from pole.

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Ok you win Massa officially won the race by not overtaking anyone and doing nothing interesting at all. How much fun is that. Let all the drivers line up in order of speed and drive around behind the safety car until the chequered flag drops. No-one does anything impetuous and every race is won from pole.

How much fun is watching a driver deliberately cutting corners to try and win a race? Again, I ask - how can it be racing?

Don't get me wrong, you get two drivers fighting it out for the lead, fine. Thats all great and dandy. When one cuts the corner ON PURPOSE, when is that classified as racing?

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OKOK theres two laps left you just had to cut a corner short (for whatever reason) and you are ahead of the race leader talk about gettin a rush , you mash the accelerator and then your team comes on the radio let him pass so you take control of you right foot and let him by , being a competitor LH wanted to win as does everyone else on the track .

i dont see nothig wrong with that. i just said that this could be the main reason why LH got 25sec. penalty.

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Ok you win Massa officially won the race by not overtaking anyone and doing nothing interesting at all. How much fun is that. Let all the drivers line up in order of speed and drive around behind the safety car until the chequered flag drops. No-one does anything impetuous and every race is won from pole.

I thought it was what we already had. :eusa_think:

PS- We need his impetousity and impulsiveness but doing it within the rules.

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As much as I liked watching the whole thing if someone decided to investigate the move then there is not much to talk about.

You have the chicane, a short straight and the next corner. It's very hard to argue that Lewis did not gain an advantage by cutting the chicane but still managed to overtake on the next corner.

Even if you have a far slower car ahead of you, you usually cannot make that pass unless they make a mistake. Lewis was much faster at the point and would have made the pass on the next corner probably, but none of that matters if you look at the letter of the rules. This case represents the current mentality in F1.

Now I am going to look at that famous Arnoux-Villneuve fight and try to see how many penalties it would cause them, had say the cars finishing in 5th and 6th decided to appeal the results, lol.

PS: After a second look at that vid it would hold out to any complaints

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How much fun is watching a driver deliberately cutting corners to try and win a race? Again, I ask - how can it be racing?

Don't get me wrong, you get two drivers fighting it out for the lead, fine. Thats all great and dandy. When one cuts the corner ON PURPOSE, when is that classified as racing?

A lot more fun than Valencia, and don't say you've never seen a driver cutting a chicane, ceding the place and immediately attacking without penalty cos if not you can't have watched many races. That said I've enjoyed arguing with you lets do it again sometime.

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In a sensational turnaround, a flash from La Gazzetta dello Sport quotes defending World Champion Kimi Raikkonen as being prepared to testify on behalf of arch rival Lewis Hamilton at the FIA hearing that will result from Vodafone McLaren Mercedes' protest of the penalty imposed on Hamilton after the Belgian Grand Prix. "I don't care what the stewards said, as far as I was concerned, Hamilton let me by as we passed the pits", said Raikkonen in Geneva today. "I got ahead, I tried to defend the position and the race was on again. My car was for sure very difficult on the prime tyres in the rain and Lewis got by me into the hairpin. That was that."

Raikkonen went on, "For sure, I don't like to lose but I don't like to win through stupid decisions. People say I have lost the love (for F1) but yesterday I showed that second was not what I wanted. There are five races to go and I plan to win them all. I'm not the sort to give up that easily."

Asked if he was prepared to testify to that effect if the McLaren protest goes to the FIA, Raikkonen simply said, "Yes, why not."

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali declined to comment on Raikkonen's statement but technical director Aldo Costa admitted the Scuderia was not pleased. "Our driver has a view but the team believes the stewards and the FIA have all the information they need. We will be talking to our driver during the week," Costa told Gazzetta dello Sport.

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Ok you win Massa officially won the race by not overtaking anyone and doing nothing interesting at all. How much fun is that. Let all the drivers line up in order of speed and drive around behind the safety car until the chequered flag drops. No-one does anything impetuous and every race is won from pole.

Michael Schumacher years!!!!!!! did you like those seasons? :yawn:

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Bottom line, Lewis Hamilton was completely unsporting in tucking right under Kimi's rear wing. Complete lack of maturity and common sense on his part. He deserved the penalty fair and square. He is still a kid and so he still needs a good spanking for bad behaviour. Like all spoilt brat kids, he wants his cake and to eat it too. This is Massa's year anyway. Hamilton can wait another year. He has a lot of growing up to do.

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what about Kimi taking the run off area and returning to track and overtaking Lewis?

Hamilton also used the run off area on that moment, and Raikkonen only passed him because Lewis made a mistake.

Also, Kimi crashed.

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Two contrasting videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKMyFCaZy0 should explain, much better than I could, what happened on Sunday.

Lets just remind us of the last time a Ferrari cut a chicane, and see the difference what happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

Funnily enough Ferrari, nor Schumacher didn't get penalised.... how convenient.

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True... however , it doesn't make much sense to me to follow an official's instuctions if it holds no value. What are they there for then?

Good point.

Yes I do and all race fans KNOW who won the race. Forget rules for a second and look to your excitement about racing and you too will Know Lewis Hamilton won that race. This is a service I provide for free you know.

Yep, it was Hamilton's race, but nobody will accept something which isn't totally fair and totally black and white.

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Kimi relied on Hamilton keeping his head as he squeezed him on to the run-off at the chicane, if he'd braked, the could easily have been damage done to both cars. So what could Hammy do to avoid a coming together in the wet?

He could stop, turn round and go back and do the left hander again, but I would suggest that there is not a single driver in the history of the sport that would have done that.

He could cut across the curbing, risking a spin in the wet, damage to the car or even collision, but again I don't think there is a single driver in the history of the sport that would have done that.

He could of course, do what every other driver in the history of the sport would have done and cut the corner using the nicely placed run-off track, put there, I would guess, and I admit it is a bit of a wild stab in the dark, for exactly that reason. It would then be an option for him to give back position or stay ahead.

One would hope that in a sporting situation, the real and practical options would be taken into account. Is there anyone out there that would have expected their driver not to have done the same? Is there a Ferarri fan out there that really thinks they have expected any different had the roles been reversed?

It was the ONLY real option for Hamilton, and he immediately slowed down for Kimi to come through, a situation that Kimi, knowing that if Hamilton stayed in front he would recieve a penalty, made awkward by exiting the corner deliberately slowly, I guess in order to force Hammy to stay ahead.

Hamilton did not have to wait for a cue from the team to let Kimi through either. If he had wanted to consolidate the illegally gained lead he could have shut the door on Kimi immediately. There was no time for Ron Dennis to react and tell him to let Kimi through, and then for Hamilton to react and do the deed; so the intention to give away the lead must have come from Hamilton.

All of this should have been taken into account even before the stewards were asked to review the situation, and they shouldn't have become involved. If 'Charlie' had told Ron that he believed the situation was OK, then who told Charlie to report it to the stewards?

Kimi, in that Ferrari, is like a spider on roller scates in the wet, no one, except the most demented Kimifan, can seriously entertain the idea that Hamilton would not have passed him over the course of the next three laps, even if he had stopped at the chicane, jumped out of the car and ran the rest of the race, and few would doubt that Kimi would have ended up in a wall or beached somewhere. And I can come to that conclusion as a bit of a non-demented Kimifan: Hamilton is good in the wet, Kimi is not (not in that car anyway) - and that is a fact. In fact, if Hamilton had managed to follow Kimi through the chicane, he would still have overtaken him under breaking at the next bend.

The only way Hamilton was not going to win that race was through legislation.....

Ferarri fans should be more dissapointed with the performance of their cars in the wet, and the lack of balls shown by Massa, for whom I have lost much respect following his post race interview. I could not possibly take any pleasure from the result of this race following the stewards decision, even if I was the ghost of Enzo Ferrari. He may have been happy with the points but he would have been sickened by the way it happened.

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and don't say you've never seen a driver cutting a chicane, ceding the place and immediately attacking without penalty cos if not you can't have watched many races.

I strongly disagree with you here... FA in Suzuka was forced by the stewards to slow down to let someone (don't rember who) pass by because of something similar. MW and FA had the same incident in Monaco and again MW was forced to let FA go ahead if i recall well... It seems there's a consistency in the decission. Lewis undoubtelly gained an advantage by cutting the chicane, that's a fact so he deserved a penalty BUT...

In the cases i have mentioned before the racers (FA and MW) just had to let go the one they overtook in an irregular manner and my friends this is not what we had here. With Kimi out of the race who was supposed to let LH go by? (someone may say that hadn't Lewis done that Kimi would have finished the race but that's far from certain and Kimi's accident had nothing to do with Lewis cutting the chicane ) Once the race is over is absolutelly ludicrous punishing Lewis with a 25 seconds penalty (as if he would have missed a Steward decission!!!) Let's say he deserved a penalty but 25 seconds? Come on mates... Massa was 15 seconds behind so he would have never in the possition of winning this one.

Veredict: UNFAIR :thbdn:

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Hamilton also used the run off area on that moment, and Raikkonen only passed him because Lewis made a mistake.

For the benefit of everyone else, I have included, in caps, the parts of this comment which have so obviously been edited out:

Hamilton also used the run off area on that moment, BUT GOT BACK ON THE COURSE AS SOON AS PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE, and Raikkonen only passed him BECAUSE HE HAD MAINTAINED MOMENTUM WITHOUT SPINNING OFF BY CONTINUING ALONG THE RUN OFF AREA, WHERE CRAP ON THE ROAD SURFACE WOULD HAVE IMPROVED HIS GRIP, FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. And Raikkonen only passed him because Lewis HAD TO AVOID A COLLISION BECAUSE ANOTHER DRIVER made a mistake.

I thank you.

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Kimi relied on Hamilton keeping his head as he squeezed him on to the run-off at the chicane, if he'd braked, the could easily have been damage done to both cars. So what could Hammy do to avoid a coming together in the wet?

He could stop, turn round and go back and do the left hander again, but I would suggest that there is not a single driver in the history of the sport that would have done that.

He could cut across the curbing, risking a spin in the wet, damage to the car or even collision, but again I don't think there is a single driver in the history of the sport that would have done that.

He could of course, do what every other driver in the history of the sport would have done and cut the corner using the nicely placed run-off track, put there, I would guess, and I admit it is a bit of a wild stab in the dark, for exactly that reason. It would then be an option for him to give back position or stay ahead.

One would hope that in a sporting situation, the real and practical options would be taken into account. Is there anyone out there that would have expected their driver not to have done the same? Is there a Ferarri fan out there that really thinks they have expected any different had the roles been reversed?

It was the ONLY real option for Hamilton, and he immediately slowed down for Kimi to come through, a situation that Kimi, knowing that if Hamilton stayed in front he would recieve a penalty, made awkward by exiting the corner deliberately slowly, I guess in order to force Hammy to stay ahead.

Hamilton did not have to wait for a cue from the team to let Kimi through either. If he had wanted to consolidate the illegally gained lead he could have shut the door on Kimi immediately. There was no time for Ron Dennis to react and tell him to let Kimi through, and then for Hamilton to react and do the deed; so the intention to give away the lead must have come from Hamilton.

All of this should have been taken into account even before the stewards were asked to review the situation, and they shouldn't have become involved. If 'Charlie' had told Ron that he believed the situation was OK, then who told Charlie to report it to the stewards?

Kimi, in that Ferrari, is like a spider on roller scates in the wet, no one, except the most demented Kimifan, can seriously entertain the idea that Hamilton would not have passed him over the course of the next three laps, even if he had stopped at the chicane, jumped out of the car and ran the rest of the race, and few would doubt that Kimi would have ended up in a wall or beached somewhere. And I can come to that conclusion as a bit of a non-demented Kimifan: Hamilton is good in the wet, Kimi is not (not in that car anyway) - and that is a fact. In fact, if Hamilton had managed to follow Kimi through the chicane, he would still have overtaken him under breaking at the next bend.

The only way Hamilton was not going to win that race was through legislation.....

Ferarri fans should be more dissapointed with the performance of their cars in the wet, and the lack of balls shown by Massa, for whom I have lost much respect following his post race interview. I could not possibly take any pleasure from the result of this race following the stewards decision, even if I was the ghost of Enzo Ferrari. He may have been happy with the points but he would have been sickened by the way it happened.

Bravo... pls, keep posting

You're very wellcome by the way

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For the benefit of everyone else, I have included, in caps, the parts of this comment which have so obviously been edited out:

Hamilton also used the run off area on that moment, BUT GOT BACK ON THE COURSE AS SOON AS PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE, and Raikkonen only passed him BECAUSE HE HAD MAINTAINED MOMENTUM WITHOUT SPINNING OFF BY CONTINUING ALONG THE RUN OFF AREA, WHERE CRAP ON THE ROAD SURFACE WOULD HAVE IMPROVED HIS GRIP, FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. And Raikkonen only passed him because Lewis HAD TO AVOID A COLLISION BECAUSE ANOTHER DRIVER made a mistake.

I thank you.

Now let me include, in caps, the part of my post that you edited out: KIMI CRASHED.

Go do an online petition to make FIA give him a drive-through.

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My two cents:

This underlines the problems I have with Max and the FIA, not because I necessarily disagree with the ruling, but because the rules are so hand-wavy and vague. There should be a clear level in car lengths that Lewis has to concede if he cuts a chicane, rather than just guessing whether he got an advantage or not. This is especially important given the fact that gravel traps are being replaced by runoff areas- why do we have to wait until a controversy erupts before these rules get properly defined?

Another example is Hammy getting lifted off the track by a crane. Everybody can see that is unfair, but because the rules are so vague about it (was his car in a "dangerous" position?) he gets away with it. And I don't blame him for that- he did what he had to do; the rules are at fault not him. Why didn't the rules say "you can be lifted onto the track, but only so you can drive back to the pits"?

Secondly, I don't care what rules were broken- changing the result of a race should not take place except under exceptional circumstances (i.e. Spygate). The fans hate it, the general public hate it, and I can't see how it benefits anyone. If it's too late for the driver to do a drive-through he should serve one the following race- or get a grid drop. Even a points deduction of equivalent value would be better. At least then you'd still know who was the race winner. It might not increase their championship lead, but nominally they would have the race victory.

The Ferrari bias claims and the McLaren bias claims with the crane last year underline it all. People want to have fair punishments, where one can say exactly which rule was broken and quantitively by how much. It's such an easy thing to make it happen- I just can't understand why no one has bothered.

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