YHR

Massa Class

60 posts in this topic

Luck:

France: inherited the victory and that made him win +2 points.

Spa: inherited the victory and that made him win +4 points.

Bad luck:

Monaco: Was supposed to be 2nd but arrived in 3rd because of a bad strategy made by Ferrari. -2 points

Germany: Didn't finish 2nd because of a brake problem that avoided him from even getting near Piquet who was in a s##tty car. It was so critical that he almost lost the 3rd position to Heidfeld. -2 points

Canada: Was refueled with no fuel and had to pit again in the next lap. Arrived in 5th position in a race where he should have been at least 3rd. -2 points

Hungary: Engine failure 3 laps to the end due to a confirmed flaw on the composition of said engine. -10 points.

Singapore: Race ruined by chief mecanic. At least -6 points (supposing he would arrive behind only Alonso and Rosberg, although I think he would be 2nd because of Rosberg's stop and go).

That's at the very least -22 points in incidents where he had absolutely no fault or responsability whatsoever. And I'm not even counting the points Hamilton inherited in some of those races due to Massa's retirement.

If you look at these facts, then look back at Hamilton's stupid mistakes this season (crashing into Alonso's rear at Bahrein, crashing into Raikkonen at the pitlane at Montreal, cutting the chicane at Spa) + the fact that his team never screwed him up, you'll see that Massa is the most consistent and most [unjustly] harmed driver of the year and that if anyone deserves this championship, it's him. Even with the spinfest at Silverstone and the spin at Malasya (where he retired only because of the gravel).

Yes he's had bad luck, but that doesnt mean he deserves to win the championship. Massa tends to be pretty bad in the wet and isnt good when he's in the midfield or at the back trying to fight through the field (seemed like he gave up at Signapore and even went off at one point, for someone whos fighting for the championship you should never give up. Even 1 point can make a difference).

Hamilton on the other hand has been good in the dry and wet, and tends to do well when he has to overtake and fight from the back (Monza for example). Yes he's made mistakes but so has Massa.

If your going by consistancy... then Kubica should be Champion?

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Without doubt Massa is a very fast F1 driver. He is exceptional when the track is hot and sunny and doesn't appear to suffer the same tyre issues as kimi given his agressive driving style. Where he is less convincing is where he is not leading from the front or if he has an on song kimi just behind him. Kimi is actually faster than Massa in the ferrari he just struggles to get his car in positions where he can exploit the car's strengths.

He had dreadful luck yesterday, but when he was tracelling at the back his limitations as a driver were very evident for most to see. It almost seems as if he can only give 100% concentration if he is leading from the front.

For me Nando, Lewis and Kimi are better allround drivers, but Massa could beat all of them in the right conditions.

Hit the nail right on the head there.

For me both Ferrari drivers are too flawed. Kimi is one of the fastest in the field but lately he's just been shocking. And Massa is a very quick and a great driver. But he's not a very good racer. Unlike Lewis Kimi and Alonso. Too me Alonso is the most complete driver on the field and Renault should feel lucky to have a driver of his calibre at their team.

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[quote name='Fed up' post='269333' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:44 PM']Without doubt Massa is a very fast F1 driver. He is exceptional when the track is hot and sunny and doesn't appear to suffer the same tyre issues as kimi given his agressive driving style. Where he is less convincing is where he is not leading from the front or if he has an on song kimi just behind him. Kimi is actually faster than Massa in the ferrari he just struggles to get his car in positions where he can exploit the car's strengths.

He had dreadful luck yesterday, but when he was tracelling at the back his limitations as a driver were very evident for most to see. It almost seems as if he can only give 100% concentration if he is leading from the front.

For me Nando, Lewis and Kimi are better allround drivers, but Massa could beat all of them in the right conditions.[/quote]
[quote name='5P33D3V1L' post='269337' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:53 PM']Yes he's had bad luck, but that doesnt mean he deserves to win the championship. Massa tends to be pretty bad in the wet and isnt good when he's in the midfield or at the back trying to fight through the field (seemed like he gave up at Signapore and even went off at one point, for someone whos fighting for the championship you should never give up. Even 1 point can make a difference).

Hamilton on the other hand has been good in the dry and wet, and tends to do well when he has to overtake and fight from the back (Monza for example). Yes he's made mistakes but so has Massa.

If your going by consistancy... then Kubica should be Champion?[/quote]
[quote name='5P33D3V1L' post='269338' date='Sep 29 2008, 02:58 PM']Hit the nail right on the head there.

For me both Ferrari drivers are too flawed. Kimi is one of the fastest in the field but lately he's just been shocking. And Massa is a very quick and a great driver. But he's not a very good racer. Unlike Lewis Kimi and Alonso. Too me Alonso is the most complete driver on the field and Renault should feel lucky to have a driver of his calibre at their team.[/quote]

Three postings I agree with!

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He had dreadful luck yesterday, but when he was tracelling at the back his limitations as a driver were very evident for most to see. It almost seems as if he can only give 100% concentration if he is leading from the front.

You

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Bin the damn automated system already Ferrari!!! There's a championship to be won & you screw it up because of some stupid green light a computer tells Massa to go! bring back the lollipop man so that at least Massa has a chance of WDC glory this year!

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If your going by consistancy... then Kubica should be Champion?

Nope, not what I said at all. It's not about consistancy only, it's about being ****ed by your own team multiple times.

Had Ferrari performed like the professional, elite Formula 1 team they are, Massa would be ahead of everyone now. I can even excuse the reliability problems (engine, brakes), but amateur things like giving the green light errouneously? Releasing the guy unsafely from the pits more than one time? Refueling his car with nothing but air? The s##tty strategies they've made (for both of their drivers)? It's all inexcusable.

I didn't think Massa would ever recover from the Hungary shock, but he did. He went after Lewis and catched him again. And when he's about to pass him in the championship, his team throws everything away again.

How can anyone deserve it more than this guy? To me he's already the moral champion.

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Nope, not what I said at all. It's not about consistancy only, it's about being ****ed by your own team multiple times.

Had Ferrari performed like the professional, elite Formula 1 team they are, Massa would be ahead of everyone now. I can even excuse the reliability problems (engine, brakes), but amateur things like giving the green light errouneously? Releasing the guy unsafely from the pits more than one time? Refueling his car with nothing but air? The s##tty strategies they've made (for both of their drivers)? It's all inexcusable.

I didn't think Massa would ever recover from the Hungary shock, but he did. He went after Lewis and catched him again. And when he's about to pass him in the championship, his team throws everything away again.

How can anyone deserve it more than this guy? To me he's already the moral champion.

I agree Massa would be a deserving champion on his efforts this year, and Ferrari's numerous attempts to c#ck it up for him. I also think Lewis would be a deserving champ though. The most deserving of all would be Kubica. By a mile.

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Nope, not what I said at all. It's not about consistancy only, it's about being ****ed by your own team multiple times.

Had Ferrari performed like the professional, elite Formula 1 team they are, Massa would be ahead of everyone now. I can even excuse the reliability problems (engine, brakes), but amateur things like giving the green light errouneously? Releasing the guy unsafely from the pits more than one time? Refueling his car with nothing but air? The s##tty strategies they've made (for both of their drivers)? It's all inexcusable.

I didn't think Massa would ever recover from the Hungary shock, but he did. He went after Lewis and catched him again. And when he's about to pass him in the championship, his team throws everything away again.

How can anyone deserve it more than this guy? To me he's already the moral champion.

I'm not sure you understand F1 or team sport for that matter. The 'team' are making mistakes due the pressure being exerted by Lewis and the Mclaren team. Massa would not be in the position to win races without the team, so to blame the team when he loses is missing the point IMHO.

Lewis and Mclaren are putting enormous pressure on ferrari and this is manifesting itself in errors, human errors. Without Lewis Ferrari would be walking the WDC/WCC at a canter. Massa has been faster than Lewis on numerous tracks, but Lewis continues to push him thereby leaving no room for error for the Ferrari - they have to maximise the effort 100% or they no Lewis will capitalise on any mistakes.

Massa is doing a great job and may still win the WDC, but to single out incidents where the team appear to have let him down is short sighted and perhaps ignorant of team sport and what it takes to excel at the top - Massa knows this even if you dont.

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I think it's a little pretentious to think Lewis made someone push a green light button. He's under pressure too (maybe even more given the fact that he has lead the championship for more time) and I don't see anyone from McLaren do any kind of mistake against him.

A pathetic season like this by a team of Ferrari's caliber is unprecedent in F1, as far as I can remember. This is not normal, natural team sport, it's just plain incompetence.

Edited by Ayrton Senna

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I'm not sure you understand F1 or team sport for that matter. The 'team' are making mistakes due the pressure being exerted by Lewis and the Mclaren team. Massa would not be in the position to win races without the team, so to blame the team when he loses is missing the point IMHO.

Lewis and Mclaren are putting enormous pressure on ferrari and this is manifesting itself in errors, human errors. Without Lewis Ferrari would be walking the WDC/WCC at a canter. Massa has been faster than Lewis on numerous tracks, but Lewis continues to push him thereby leaving no room for error for the Ferrari - they have to maximise the effort 100% or they no Lewis will capitalise on any mistakes.

Massa is doing a great job and may still win the WDC, but to single out incidents where the team appear to have let him down is short sighted and perhaps ignorant of team sport and what it takes to excel at the top - Massa knows this even if you dont.

That's a serious delusion, right there my friend! That's what they do for a living!

And Lewis is driving/has driven only a car able to win the championship so far in F1. Sure he deserves his drive, but don't make a god out of him!

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I think it's a little pretentious to think Lewis made someone push a green light button. He's under pressure too (maybe even more given the fact that he has lead the championship for more time) and I don't see anyone from McLaren do any kind of mistake against him.

A pathetic season like this by a team of Ferrari's caliber is unprecedent in F1, as far as I can remember. This is not normal, natural team sport, it's just plain incompetence.

It's just bad luck. There weren't any major strategy errors, or the team lacked in development or anything during the season. A guy pressed the button 1 second too soon yesterday, the lights system Ferrari is using is connected to the fuel pump and wasn't computer controlled during the stop. The mechanic acted like a bad "lollipop man", that's all!

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That's a serious delusion, right there my friend! That's what they do for a living!

And Lewis is driving/has driven only a car able to win the championship so far in F1. Sure he deserves his drive, but don't make a god out of him!

You, my friend are delusional if you think the 'team' operate in the pits for a living. Changing a wheel or pressing a button is not why they are employed by the team.

My point is that it was the pressure to ensure Massa got out ahead of Lewis that forced the team to adopt different strategy at the very last minute - this is my point;

Q. Is it related to the pressure of the situation you find yourself in, you're at the end of the championship now, you looked like you were going to get a one-two finish here and then suddenly this thing turned. It was important to get Felipe out before Lewis...

SD: In that moment you have to consider that there were so many cars coming in and of course, you try to be quick, you try to find the right slot in order for the car to be released, so it was a difficult moment. If you should wear the overall of the guy who has to manage that, I don't think a lot of people would say that they want to do it. We have to have a lot of respect for these guys, who are not really top drivers but part of us, that they are doing this job. It is very difficult and they have a lot of pressure.

Q. Do you know what happened at the pitstop, because from the on-board it appeared that the green light was showing?

SD: Unfortunately there was a mistake, it was not an electronic system, it was run manually, because normally in that condition when there are a lot of cars coming in that safety car situation, it is better to have like a lollipop but instead of a lollipop you control the green light and unfortunately there was a mistake.

Believe what you will, it makes no difference to me.

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You, my friend are delusional if you think the 'team' operate in the pits for a living. Changing a wheel or pressing a button is not why they are employed by the team.

My point is that it was the pressure to ensure Massa got out ahead of Lewis that forced the team to adopt different strategy at the very last minute - this is my point;

Believe what you will, it makes no difference to me.

I was just referring to what you said above, not what you think you said...

As far as the "difference" you say, you think I really care?? Why bother with posting in a forum if you expect everyone to agree with you?

Why not make a blog??

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I'm not sure you understand F1 or team sport for that matter. The 'team' are making mistakes due the pressure being exerted by Lewis and the Mclaren team. Massa would not be in the position to win races without the team, so to blame the team when he loses is missing the point IMHO.

Lewis and Mclaren are putting enormous pressure on ferrari and this is manifesting itself in errors, human errors. Without Lewis Ferrari would be walking the WDC/WCC at a canter. Massa has been faster than Lewis on numerous tracks, but Lewis continues to push him thereby leaving no room for error for the Ferrari - they have to maximise the effort 100% or they no Lewis will capitalise on any mistakes.

Massa is doing a great job and may still win the WDC, but to single out incidents where the team appear to have let him down is short sighted and perhaps ignorant of team sport and what it takes to excel at the top - Massa knows this even if you dont.

Indeed. well said.

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It's a close battle, both Ferrari and McLaren are feeling the pressure. Maybe Mclaren are staying composed a little better than Ferrari right now, but there's still three races to go. Things could turn around real quick. I'm loving this!

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I am happy the mood is that Massa woud be a deserving champion. He has accomplished a lot this year.

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Luck:

France: inherited the victory and that made him win +2 points.

Spa: inherited the victory and that made him win +4 points.

Bad luck:

Monaco: Was supposed to be 2nd but arrived in 3rd because of a bad strategy made by Ferrari. -2 points

Germany: Didn't finish 2nd because of a brake problem that avoided him from even getting near Piquet who was in a s##tty car. It was so critical that he almost lost the 3rd position to Heidfeld. -2 points

Canada: Was refueled with no fuel and had to pit again in the next lap. Arrived in 5th position in a race where he should have been at least 3rd. -2 points

Hungary: Engine failure 3 laps to the end due to a confirmed flaw on the composition of said engine. -10 points.

Singapore: Race ruined by chief mecanic. At least -6 points (supposing he would arrive behind only Alonso and Rosberg, although I think he would be 2nd because of Rosberg's stop and go).

That's at the very least -22 points in incidents where he had absolutely no fault or responsability whatsoever. And I'm not even counting the points Hamilton inherited in some of those races due to Massa's retirement.

If you look at these facts, then look back at Hamilton's stupid mistakes this season (crashing into Alonso's rear at Bahrein, crashing into Raikkonen at the pitlane at Montreal, cutting the chicane at Spa) + the fact that his team never screwed him up, you'll see that Massa is the most consistent and most [unjustly] harmed driver of the year and that if anyone deserves this championship, it's him. Even with the spinfest at Silverstone and the spin at Malasya (where he retired only because of the gravel).

Good Post. Was wondering myself how many points has Massa lost potientally by errors....

I really hope Massa wins this year, it

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Honestly, I don't know who deserves the WC any less.

Team-wise, we are seeing Ferrari fall apart... yet McLaren is only a point ahead of them in the CWC. Need I say more?

Who deserves the CWC? If Ferrari wins, wouldn't that be a joke?

Driver-wise, both Massa and Hamilton have improved their race craft and are approximately on par... which, again, is not much to say.

Who deserves the DWC? Obviously, Hamilton. He's been telling us for two years now who he deserves everything.

In other words, it does not matter at all whatsoever who wins what.

Our only hope is that, as the roulette season comes to a close, there is still hope for a race win for Force India. Failling that, it would be quite nice if Webber or Coulthard did the deed. Trulli too would be a worthy GP champion considering odds...

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I am happy the mood is that Massa woud be a deserving champion. He has accomplished a lot this year.

Then I take it there's gonna be alot of disappointing fans come Brazil

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Then I take it there's gonna be alot of disappointing fans come Brazil

????

I am sorry KR has fallen apart. You must be very sad. He has been totally dominated by FM, and his value as a driver has plummeted, even to the point of people questioning the wisdom of Ferrari of extending his contract.

When exactly in this years Grand Prix did you become disappointed?

Did you know that in the last three races KR has found the wall because of driver error in two of them. This is very strange since his teammates perfomance have some people thinking the Ferrari is the best car on the grid??????

All very strange???????????

I don't think I have ever witnessed WDC, just losing his abilities so quickly. Maybe there is a substance abuse problem that has snuck up on him, and is now his master. Must be some explanation for the fall of KR. People just don't forget how to drive. In all seriousness, somebody should be asking these questions. Maybe the guy needs help. I have always respected KR, and think there has to be something behind this rapid drop in performance. You know it is all very funny to joke about getting drunk and falling off a boat, but the truth is it is not funny at all. Massa is a very good driver, but something has happened to KR.

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I don't think I have ever witnessed WDC, just losing his abilities so quickly. Maybe there is a substance abuse problem that has snuck up on him, and is now his master. Must be some explanation for the fall of KR. People just don't forget how to drive. In all seriousness, somebody should be asking these questions. Maybe the guy needs help. I have always respected KR, and think there has to be something behind this rapid drop in performance. You know it is all very funny to joke about getting drunk and falling off a boat, but the truth is it is not funny at all. Massa is a very good driver, but something has happened to KR.

First....Lewis has always been my 2nd fav driver after Kimi....

2nd...You might have a point somewhere above... this is really not the Kimi I know and supported for 7 years

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First....Lewis has always been my 2nd fav driver after Kimi....

2nd...You might have a point somewhere above... this is really not the Kimi I know and supported for 7 years

:o You are agreeing with YHR????

:P

But i think Brad is right YHR, There will be a lot of dispointed fans come Brazil. That is of those who supported Hamilton and Kimi :P

The Alonso fans, being used to be disappointed, will appear to be normal... :P

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