Hamilton Or Massa For Dwc

[maure 1]

You're winding me up! And you sound like Maure: only you guys set higher standards for Lewis than the boy himself. I bow down before your superior admiration of his talents.

More seriously, Schumacher was still getting himself multiple race bans for deliberately ignoring black flags in his 4th season. Then in the title decider he crashed, after having been beaten in the wet the race before by Damon. Even in 2003 he was hopeless in the title decider. Massa was a joke in his first seasons and Kimi's overall level of performance was much worse than it was this year last year. Nakajima's been judged harshly because he's not driving as well: Lewis was genuinely faster than Alonso in his first season, at least some of the time, whereas Nakajima has rarely been as fast as the obviously slower Nico.

The amount of dellusion statements like the one I bolded require is staggering.

[maure 1]

Kimi is a blindingly fast bat rather mediocre at everything else driver, let's face it. He never accomplished much except being an aeternal "almost beats Schumi/Nando" contender which, in the end, somehow never delivered it.

Hey, hey, hey, slow down there.

If McLaren would've given Kimi a reliable car, only reliable, Alonso's 2005 WC would've been Kimi's. Do the math, 7 races won by each despite the McLaren's race-to-break proclivity.

[maure 1]

How anyone could say Hamilton is experienced (as in: the best driver he can be) is talking bollocks I'm afraid, come back in 2-3 years and watch Louise be considered the benchmark driver in F1 in terms of everything. That's the way it'll go down.

For me Hamilton is still learning and maturing, as we have seen this year, again this time next year he will be a better driver (the increase won't be as big as from last year to now, but he'll still be a better driver). Apart from that as he gets older, he won't just become a better driver, he'll get wiser to the ways of F1 and life in general - eventually he will stop acting like a d#ck trying to seek approval from everyone.

All in all it's a worrying thought for his critics and his competition.

Very true, very true... of course, he first has to survive the hype and unrealistic expectations to see that day and McLaren has to be able to produce a car that can actually do the job. Quite a few if's.

Unfortunately, it is not clear at all that it will work that way. It is one of the best reasons to support Hamilton for the WC this year. One can only imagine the shtstorm he will have to face if he sinks again.

[Max Mosley 2]

OK, I'll reply tomorrow. Now I need to sleep.

[Quiet One 15]

Hey, hey, hey, slow down there.

If McLaren would've given Kimi a reliable car, only reliable, Alonso's 2005 WC would've been Kimi's. Do the math, 7 races won by each despite the McLaren's race-to-break proclivity.

Oh no...I got my prey, I'm not letting it go

Yes, we all saw Macca's car finding a new way to break every time while Kimi was there, he also contributed with his own "unforced errors" to use the tennis vocabulary. So he always was "he should've won if not for...". Those gremlins were gone when FA and LH were there. Kimi moved to Ferrari and Ferrari started having more issues than usual (granted, they seemed to start while Schumi was still around).

So, let's be merciful and just say that the guy really had bad luck every time. Then the guy is just another Chris Amon. And Amon proved that among those things that constitute "the package", you also need some luck. Kimi somehow only managed to make luck work for him once: last year. If the guy can't make his own luck either because it is impossible or because he didn't know to, becomes irrelevant.

Sorry

[freaky2 1]

Oh no...I got my prey, I'm not letting it go

Yes, we all saw Macca's car finding a new way to break every time while Kimi was there, he also contributed with his own "unforced errors" to use the tennis vocabulary. So he always was "he should've won if not for...". Those gremlins were gone when FA and LH were there. Kimi moved to Ferrari and Ferrari started having more issues than usual (granted, they seemed to start while Schumi was still around).

So, let's be merciful and just say that the guy really had bad luck every time. Then the guy is just another Chris Amon. And Amon proved that among those things that constitute "the package", you also need some luck. Kimi somehow only managed to make luck work for him once: last year. If the guy can't make his own luck either because it is impossible or because he didn't know to, becomes irrelevant.

Sorry

A championship is more than many can brag of, so I guess it's not all that bad for Kimi. The stupid thing is that he actually shined more in the Sh#tty McLaren XD

And no, Kimi is not a car breaker

[goferrarigo 0]

You forget that MS lost the WC in 2006 because Massa was allowed to win a couple of races. You have to wonder if this would've happen in the RB era. Massa's best asset has been his ability to have people work his way, not unlike Hamilton although without hand-waving and histrionics.

Also, while you could argue that Ferrari didn't focus on Massa, you cannot say that they did on Kimi. But why didn't they? Because Ferrari thought they could afford to relax, because they thought that McLaren was not going to recover from last year's fiasco and that without Alonso, Hamilton was going to continue to be as irregular as he had become from Silverstone on (when Alonso pulled the plug). If Ferrari would've thought that their performance was going to sink as low as McLaren's, they would've given Kimi a car suited to his style and, today, they would be leading the WC by a stretch.

You said it... "the design philosophy at Ferrari hasn't suited him". Again, why let this happen when you yourself say that 10% of their budget on him? Overconfidence.

Not True. Massa won 2 races in 2006, Turkey and Brazil. Both races Schumi finished 3rd or lower....

No amount of driver skill will put a Force India on the podium.

Wet conditions favor McLaren's design and setup... and Hamilton does reasonably well when he has a clear advantage.

Agreed. It will be the conditions ans strategy that can... If possible...

[goferrarigo 0]

A championship is more than many can brag of, so I guess it's not all that bad for Kimi. The stupid thing is that he actually shined more in the Sh#tty McLaren XD

And no, Kimi is not a car breaker

[maure 1]

Not True. Massa won 2 races in 2006, Turkey and Brazil. Both races Schumi finished 3rd or lower....

Are you saying that Massa didn't take points off MS?

[maure 1]

Oh no...I got my prey, I'm not letting it go

Yes, we all saw Macca's car finding a new way to break every time while Kimi was there, he also contributed with his own "unforced errors" to use the tennis vocabulary. So he always was "he should've won if not for...". Those gremlins were gone when FA and LH were there. Kimi moved to Ferrari and Ferrari started having more issues than usual (granted, they seemed to start while Schumi was still around).

So, let's be merciful and just say that the guy really had bad luck every time. Then the guy is just another Chris Amon. And Amon proved that among those things that constitute "the package", you also need some luck. Kimi somehow only managed to make luck work for him once: last year. If the guy can't make his own luck either because it is impossible or because he didn't know to, becomes irrelevant.

Sorry

Kimi did win 6 races last season, more than any other driver (Alonso & Hamilton won 4 each and Massa 3) and he did make up for the 17 points that Hamilton lost in the last two races, which Kimi also won.

Has he been off this season? Unexpectedly so. But if that is what you are trying to get to, I didn't quite get it from your post... which is quite possibly due to the flirtings of your accent and my accent, the naughty two...

The issue of luck is always there... for everyone. Alonso won 2 WCs with a Renault, again, _with_a_Renault_. Had he landed in Renault last season instead of the previous two, he would have exactly zero WCs.

[The Rumble Strip 0]

I gather Force India's objective is to get a podium at India's first GP.

This has now been put back to 2011 so that gives them a little bit more time.

[freaky2 1]

Now he crashes them into walls. Atleast earlier he used to make the car repair cost less...

*runs and hides*

Hahah, my post was half-joking anyway, no need to hide. Yes, all that crashing into walls is an unfortunate issue...

[Max Mosley 2]

You forget that MS lost the WC in 2006 because Massa was allowed to win a couple of races.

Not True. Massa won 2 races in 2006, Turkey and Brazil. Both races Schumi finished 3rd or lower....

Good answer.

Massa's best asset has been his ability to have people work his way, not unlike Hamilton although without hand-waving and histrionics.

I agree. But F1 is a team sport and making the team work effectively for you is part of the challenge - don't worry, probably like you I wish it weren't so, but it is. How has Massa achieved it anyway? According to Peter Sauber (who predicted it, and who has employed both drivers) Felipe is a humble, hard working team player whereas Kimi isn't.

Also, while you could argue that Ferrari didn't focus on Massa, you cannot say that they did on Kimi. But why didn't they?

Because when Kimi arrived at Ferrari he wasn't any better than Massa, and he's got worse since.

You said it... "the design philosophy at Ferrari hasn't suited him". Again, why let this happen when you yourself say that 10% of their budget on him? Overconfidence.

Agreed. Ferrari were overconfident: overconfident in Kimi's ability when they signed his contract. He's not worth half that money. And the design of the Ferrari doesn't suit him because he doesn't work effectively with the team imho.

The amount of dellusion statements like the one I bolded require is staggering.

So in no qualifying session, at no point of any race, in 2007 was Lewis faster than Nando, according to Maure. I'll let you explain it to AleHop.

If McLaren would've given Kimi a reliable car, only reliable, Alonso's 2005 WC would've been Kimi's. Do the math, 7 races won by each despite the McLaren's race-to-break proclivity.

Agreed. Which is why the WDC is meaningless.

Oh no...I got my prey, I'm not letting it go

Yes, we all saw Macca's car finding a new way to break every time while Kimi was there, he also contributed with his own "unforced errors" to use the tennis vocabulary. So he always was "he should've won if not for...". Those gremlins were gone when FA and LH were there. Kimi moved to Ferrari and Ferrari started having more issues than usual (granted, they seemed to start while Schumi was still around).

So, let's be merciful and just say that the guy really had bad luck every time. Then the guy is just another Chris Amon. And Amon proved that among those things that constitute "the package", you also need some luck. Kimi somehow only managed to make luck work for him once: last year. If the guy can't make his own luck either because it is impossible or because he didn't know to, becomes irrelevant.

Sorry

What an insanely generous post.

The issue of luck is always there... for everyone. Alonso won 2 WCs with a Renault, again, _with_a_Renault_. Had he landed in Renault last season instead of the previous two, he would have exactly zero WCs.

I agree. The whole WDC is meaningless. Btw can someone explain to me what reasons we have for thinking Kimi is any good? So far he's beaten most of his team mates but they only include DC (who says Kimi is lazy and not as good as people think thought) and Montoya, and imho 3/4 of the F1 grid would beat them. The only guy to have previously employed both Kimi and Massa predicted Massa would come out on top, and that is what has happened.

Hahah, my post was half-joking anyway, no need to hide. Yes, all that crashing into walls is an unfortunate issue...

Yeah. Awww. You should switch to Nando!

[Rainmaster 7]

I see the latest flavour of the forum is Anti-Kimi, people always take the easy route.

Just remember kids, Mr.Raikkonen won the title in his first year at Ferrari, and is third in all time fastest laps. That's what I'm holding onto

[freaky2 1]

I see the latest flavour of the forum is Anti-Kimi, people always take the easy route.

Just remember kids, Mr.Raikkonen won the title in his first year at Ferrari, and is third in all time fastest laps. That's what I'm holding onto

And Massa hasn't beaten him because even if he wins this year (not exactly easy but very possible) they will be even! One WDC each. And as much as you don't like them and they're meaningless to you Murray, they're what we have to consider here.

[Rainmaster 7]

And Massa hasn't beaten him because even if he wins this year (not exactly easy but very possible) they will be even! One WDC each. And as much as you don't like them and they're meaningless to you Murray, they're what we have to consider here.

Exactly, which is precisely why I want Hammy to win this year

[freaky2 1]

Exactly, which is precisely why I want Hammy to win this year

Yeah XD

[maure 1]

I see the latest flavour of the forum is Anti-Kimi, people always take the easy route.

Just remember kids, Mr.Raikkonen won the title in his first year at Ferrari, and is third in all time fastest laps. That's what I'm holding onto

Funny how it is, ain't it?

I agree. But F1 is a team sport and making the team work effectively for you is part of the challenge - don't worry, probably like you I wish it weren't so, but it is. How has Massa achieved it anyway? According to Peter Sauber (who predicted it, and who has employed both drivers) Felipe is a humble, hard working team player whereas Kimi isn't.

It still surprises me how gullible you are.

Because when Kimi arrived at Ferrari he wasn't any better than Massa, and he's got worse since.

Does it really hurt you so much that Kimi won the WC last year? It must have been crushing for you to see Hamilton goof it off.

Agreed. Ferrari were overconfident: overconfident in Kimi's ability when they signed his contract. He's not worth half that money. And the design of the Ferrari doesn't suit him because he doesn't work effectively with the team imho.

Absurd. Kimi paid handsomely when he won the WC.

Let us not forget that, last year, Massa was the one that had it all perfect. Alonso and Kimi moving to a new team. Hamilton wet behind the ears. Yet Massa was the one that did the worst despite his experience at Ferrari, etc, etc.

So in no qualifying session, at no point of any race, in 2007 was Lewis faster than Nando, according to Maure. I'll let you explain it to AleHop.

Amusing how you coward away from your orginal "Lewis was genuinely faster than Alonso in his first season" to this "So in no qualifying session, at no point of any race, in 2007 was Lewis faster than Nando".

H-i-l-a-r-i-o-u-s.

Agreed. Which is why the WDC is meaningless.

This left field comment is more characteristic of the random babbling of Cavallino... and equally boring.

I agree. The whole WDC is meaningless. Btw can someone explain to me what reasons we have for thinking Kimi is any good? So far he's beaten most of his team mates but they only include DC (who says Kimi is lazy and not as good as people think thought) and Montoya, and imho 3/4 of the F1 grid would beat them. The only guy to have previously employed both Kimi and Massa predicted Massa would come out on top, and that is what has happened.

Except that Massa has not come out on top. To do that, Massa would need to win 2 WCs.

It is fun to see how much ahead of events you are, eager beaver, and how quickly you then are forced to retreat.

[YHR 0]

Not True. Massa won 2 races in 2006, Turkey and Brazil. Both races Schumi finished 3rd or lower....

Good answer.

I agree. But F1 is a team sport and making the team work effectively for you is part of the challenge - don't worry, probably like you I wish it weren't so, but it is. How has Massa achieved it anyway? According to Peter Sauber (who predicted it, and who has employed both drivers) Felipe is a humble, hard working team player whereas Kimi isn't.

Because when Kimi arrived at Ferrari he wasn't any better than Massa, and he's got worse since.

Agreed. Ferrari were overconfident: overconfident in Kimi's ability when they signed his contract. He's not worth half that money. And the design of the Ferrari doesn't suit him because he doesn't work effectively with the team imho.

So in no qualifying session, at no point of any race, in 2007 was Lewis faster than Nando, according to Maure. I'll let you explain it to AleHop.

Agreed. Which is why the WDC is meaningless.

What an insanely generous post.

I agree. The whole WDC is meaningless. Btw can someone explain to me what reasons we have for thinking Kimi is any good? So far he's beaten most of his team mates but they only include DC (who says Kimi is lazy and not as good as people think thought) and Montoya, and imho 3/4 of the F1 grid would beat them. The only guy to have previously employed both Kimi and Massa predicted Massa would come out on top, and that is what has happened.

Yeah. Awww. You should switch to Nando!

Holy Smokes. Other then the WDC thing, this is a post I completely agree with.

I few guys have mentioned it, but I will focus on this statement. Massa in Ferrari was able to beat MS twice, in MS's final year. As MS was truly a gifted driver, I don't think this accomplishment by Massa should be overlooked. It was his first year at the team, and it was MS's swan song season. I am sure MS was favored over Massa, but Massa still beat him twice. When I choose to support Massa, I looked at what Sauber said of him, the comments by JV, as well as his performance at Ferrari. Everything pointed to a Massa success. As Kubica mentioned, "People tend to hang to the past, but Massa is very fast, and driving without errors." I find it interesting to see so many posters stuck in the past. To paint a guy a loser, when he is less then 25 and never had the opportunity to drive on a top team is a little short sighted. Once Massa was given his shot in a top team, he has made the most of it, and looking at his three years at Ferrari, he has done very well.

I suggest something to all you Hamilton fans. Hamilton in a midpack team with his aggressive driving style, might very well much look like a loser as well. He has a great talent to drive fast, and he was lucky enough to arrive at a top team with arguably the best overall car on the grid. The fact he does so well in the rain is as much about the car as it is his driving. Getting heat into the tires is crucial all the time and even more so in the rain. Brakes also have an optimum temperature. Without brakes and tire adhesion, what do you think it is like to drive in the rain???? Don't for one minute think it is all about the drivers skill in wet weather. The car very much play's into this as well.

So yes Hamilton is a very good driver. He has been groomed for this career since he was eight, and has probably been the most fortunate driver to have Ron Dennis so interested in him at an early age and move him along every step of the way. But please keep it real. The only thing that is going to make him a "great" is being at the top for numorous years.

So what we have now are two very good drivers, making the most out of the opportunites granted to them, locked in a great contest for the WDC. I do not share the thought that this grid of Drivers is any less skilled then in the past. A little younger on average maybe, so I would agree they are not as experienced, but just wait a couple of years!!!!. Other then the issues with the Stewards(I have been consistanly critical of them no matter who is leading the championship) F1 has a bright future.

[Rainmaster 7]

I'm bored so I'll have a crack at this post.

I few guys have mentioned it, but I will focus on this statement. Massa in Ferrari was able to beat MS twice, in MS's final year. As MS was truly a gifted driver, I don't think this accomplishment by Massa should be overlooked. It was his first year at the team, and it was MS's swan song season. I am sure MS was favored over Massa, but Massa still beat him twice. When I choose to support Massa, I looked at what Sauber said of him, the comments by JV, as well as his performance at Ferrari. Everything pointed to a Massa success. As Kubica mentioned, "People tend to hang to the past, but Massa is very fast, and driving without errors." I find it interesting to see so many posters stuck in the past. To paint a guy a loser, when he is less then 25 and never had the opportunity to drive on a top team is a little short sighted. Once Massa was given his shot in a top team, he has made the most of it, and looking at his three years at Ferrari, he has done very well.

Bah 17 races a year and you're mathematically bound to beat your team-mate a couple of times if you're any good at all, even if he is a great driver (Berger beat Senna after all). Saying that, all credit to him, Massa's wins in 2006 were very impressive. I don't think people are stuck in the past about Massa though, it's just people are bound to bring up stuff from the past when having fan boy arguments (I know this never happens on TF1 ), it just so happens that Massa made more errors in the past than the other front runners in F1 at the moment. Anyway regardless of that, you don't need to bring up things people said in the past, or Massa's previous achievements to try and prove his speed or justify why you like him, we already know he's quick because he's lying second in the title hunt & we know he's a decent guy (at least compared with Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton).

Massa has done very well so far in a top team, the same is true of Hamilton - No, choking at the end of 2007 doesn't count for much, he was still a rookie.

I suggest something to all you Hamilton fans. Hamilton in a midpack team with his aggressive driving style, might very well much look like a loser as well. He has a great talent to drive fast, and he was lucky enough to arrive at a top team with arguably the best overall car on the grid. The fact he does so well in the rain is as much about the car as it is his driving. Getting heat into the tires is crucial all the time and even more so in the rain. Brakes also have an optimum temperature. Without brakes and tire adhesion, what do you think it is like to drive in the rain???? Don't for one minute think it is all about the drivers skill in wet weather. The car very much play's into this as well.

I'm not sure 'lucky' is the right way to describe it really, there are two sides to it. Lucky to have a top car right from the off with which he can be competitive with, but not so lucky to be in the public spotlight straight away with massive pressure. Also it's totally incorrect to call it luck that he's in a top team, Lewis approached Ron Dennis, Lewis won the titles he needed to win. Calling it luck is insulting.

As for the cars influence in wet weather driving, I tend to agree, the car is probably more influential than in years gone by (or maybe it was always like that). Still though, Lewis has beat Heikki/Alonso in the wet and we know they are skilled wet weather drivers, Lewis has also won the majority of wet races over the time he has been in F1. I think it's fair to say the car plays a big role in wet weather driving, but so does the driver. To put it simply, Vettel would drive the Ferrari better in the rain that either Kimi or Massa can, and Kimi/Massa couldn't drive the Mclaren as well as Lewis can, but perhaps Vettel could.

So yes Hamilton is a very good driver. He has been groomed for this career since he was eight, and has probably been the most fortunate driver to have Ron Dennis so interested in him at an early age and move him along every step of the way. But please keep it real. The only thing that is going to make him a "great" is being at the top for numorous years.

See above. It was Lewis who had the intelligence and...you guessed it, balls, to approach Dennis. Just because Lewis had Dennis interested from early on doesn't count for much (especially when Lewis initiated that interest himself); Lewis still had to go out and win races himself, no one did it for him.

So what we have now are two very good drivers, making the most out of the opportunites granted to them, locked in a great contest for the WDC. I do not share the thought that this grid of Drivers is any less skilled then in the past. A little younger on average maybe, so I would agree they are not as experienced, but just wait a couple of years!!!!. Other then the issues with the Stewards(I have been consistanly critical of them no matter who is leading the championship) F1 has a bright future.

I totally agree, for once.

[Rainmaster 7]

Ahhh. I feel better for sharing.

[YHR 0]

I'm bored so I'll have a crack at this post.

Bah 17 races a year and you're mathematically bound to beat your team-mate a couple of times if you're any good at all, even if he is a great driver (Berger beat Senna after all). Saying that, all credit to him, Massa's wins in 2006 were very impressive. I don't think people are stuck in the past about Massa though, it's just people are bound to bring up stuff from the past when having fan boy arguments (I know this never happens on TF1 ), it just so happens that Massa made more errors in the past than the other front runners in F1 at the moment. Anyway regardless of that, you don't need to bring up things people said in the past, or Massa's previous achievements to try and prove his speed or justify why you like him, we already know he's quick because he's lying second in the title hunt & we know he's a decent guy (at least compared with Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton).

Massa has done very well so far in a top team, the same is true of Hamilton - No, choking at the end of 2007 doesn't count for much, he was still a rookie.

I'm not sure 'lucky' is the right way to describe it really, there are two sides to it. Lucky to have a top car right from the off with which he can be competitive with, but not so lucky to be in the public spotlight straight away with massive pressure. Also it's totally incorrect to call it luck that he's in a top team, Lewis approached Ron Dennis, Lewis won the titles he needed to win. Calling it luck is insulting.

As for the cars influence in wet weather driving, I tend to agree, the car is probably more influential than in years gone by (or maybe it was always like that). Still though, Lewis has beat Heikki/Alonso in the wet and we know they are skilled wet weather drivers, Lewis has also won the majority of wet races over the time he has been in F1. I think it's fair to say the car plays a big role in wet weather driving, but so does the driver. To put it simply, Vettel would drive the Ferrari better in the rain that either Kimi or Massa can, and Kimi/Massa couldn't drive the Mclaren as well as Lewis can, but perhaps Vettel could.

See above. It was Lewis who had the intelligence and...you guessed it, balls, to approach Dennis. Just because Lewis had Dennis interested from early on doesn't count for much (especially when Lewis initiated that interest himself); Lewis still had to go out and win races himself, no one did it for him.

I totally agree, for once.

I use that term loosely. I understand what you are syaing, and used the same argument when people used to say JV was lucky to arrive at Williams when he did. Sometimes you make your own "luck" Funny how some guys are able to do that.

[goferrarigo 0]

Are you saying that Massa didn't take points off MS?

Yes, Thats exactly what i am saying. Massa took the points where MSC was allready losing to Alonso. He never took more points to MSC when MSC had a chance to make 1 or 2 more points on Alonso. Since Alonso was the enemy, As long as Massa did not impead Schumi's attack on him, he didn't take points of Schumi....

I gather Force India's objective is to get a podium at India's first GP.

This has now been put back to 2011 so that gives them a little bit more time.

Yeah, Though i don't think it being pushed to 2011 is confirmed...

I agree. But F1 is a team sport and making the team work effectively for you is part of the challenge - don't worry, probably like you I wish it weren't so, but it is. How has Massa achieved it anyway? According to Peter Sauber (who predicted it, and who has employed both drivers) Felipe is a humble, hard working team player whereas Kimi isn't.

So your a Massa fan now???

And Massa hasn't beaten him because even if he wins this year (not exactly easy but very possible) they will be even! One WDC each. And as much as you don't like them and they're meaningless to you Murray, they're what we have to consider here.

The main thing what i think he's sayin is that people earlier said that Kimi would own Massa and that Massa was useless. Now those people are basically eaiting their hats....

[The Rumble Strip 0]

What Bernie wants, he usually gets though.

[freaky2 1]

Yes, Thats exactly what i am saying. Massa took the points where MSC was allready losing to Alonso. He never took more points to MSC when MSC had a chance to make 1 or 2 more points on Alonso. Since Alonso was the enemy, As long as Massa did not impead Schumi's attack on him, he didn't take points of Schumi....

Maybe he'd have preferred Massa to crash so Schumi would gain more points... who knows

The main thing what i think he's sayin is that people earlier said that Kimi would own Massa and that Massa was useless. Now those people are basically eaiting their hats....

Whewww, at least I never said he was useless (not counting in the rain, I don't know about that XD)