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Bourdais 25 S. Penalty

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If Massa wasn't off the track, Hamilton would have hit him and both of them would be out. I'm not saying Massa wasn't at fault there, I just think Bourdais is just as culpable. In both cases the driver was overtaken and refused to brake and give the position.

I see what you're saying, but for me, Massa went very wide all by himself, was then completely overtaken by Lewis, and just drove off track and right into the side of Hamilton. I don't think he was even breaking to avoid the collision! Bourdais on the other hand was within his rights to fight back because he wasn't completely overtaken by Massa. Massa was only half a car length in front when they collided. If anything I'd say Felipe was at fault for not giving Bourdais room until he was clear past him, but neither deserved a penalty.

Edited by Murray Walker

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Irrespective of who gained favour, this race was more evidence of inconsistency with stewards.

And as Brundle pointed out in ITV coverage, everyone is getting rather jumpy every time something happens and stewards get mentioned.

It never used to be quite as bad as this?

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I see what you're saying, but for me, Massa went very wide all by himself, was then completely overtaken by Lewis, and just drove off track and right into the side of Hamilton. I don't think he was even breaking to avoid the collision! Bourdais on the other hand was within his rights to fight back because he wasn't completely overtaken by Massa. Massa was only half a car length in front when they collided. If anything I'd say Felipe was at fault for not giving Bourdais room until he was clear past him, but neither deserved a penalty.

Funny. I thought that Massa's right hand wheels never left the track and that he was actually straddling the chicane and following it around when he collided with Hamilton. I would love to see that clip again, as I don't think it was half as bad as some of you are claiming. Can somebody pull that up, and let's look at this again. If Hamilton wasn't so aggresive he would have left FM room. :D

Edited by YHR

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Oh my God, okay everyone if there is ONE thing you must believe me on, ever, it is that Bourdais did nothing wrong. Please people don't argue this, even if your Massa's dad, Bourdais did nothing wrong. I really don't understand how anyone, who saw the actual incident could argue it any other way.

Feck me. Most pathetic penalty of the year, they were racing-for-position, Bourdais owes Massa nothing, Bourdais was on-the-inside, he couldn't have done anything else. It isn't his fault Massa acted like he didn't exist. Like Seb said 'you don't do that when your fighting for a championship' - there was absolutely no need.

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Oh my God, okay everyone if there is ONE thing you must believe me on, ever, it is that Bourdais did nothing wrong. Please people don't argue this, even if your Massa's dad, Bourdais did nothing wrong. I really don't understand how anyone, who saw the actual incident could argue it any other way.

Feck me. Most pathetic penalty of the year, they were racing-for-position, Bourdais owes Massa nothing, Bourdais was on-the-inside, he couldn't have done anything else. It isn't his fault Massa acted like he didn't exist. Like Seb said 'you don't do that when your fighting for a championship' - there was absolutely no need.

Ya, I really thought Massa was going to be given the 25 second penalty. I only saw the incident from the one angle though, so I was hoping it looked different to what I saw. To me FM screwed up and didn't give Bourdais the room he should have.

Edited by YHR

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Funny. I thought that Massa's right hand wheels never left the track and that he was actually straddling the chicane and following it around when he collided with Hamilton.

All 4 wheels were off track and on kerb/grass and he just kept going.

Ya, I really thought Massa was going to be given the 25 second penalty. I only saw the incident from the one angle though, so I was hoping it looked different to what I saw. To me FM screwed up and didn't give Bourdais the room he should have.

Yeah I agree with you here.

Edited by Murray Walker

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I still think that both cases are about the same. Both Hamilton and Massa had plenty of room to make their manouver more on the outside of the track and avoid the incidents, but they didn't, and someone refused to brake and hit them.

Both are racing incidents that have happened millions of times before with no penalties. The thing is that the stewards thought that Massa HAD to get the penalty because it was a direct fight for the championship. And since they penalized him, they felt obligated to do the same with Bourdais.

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Irrespective of who gained favour, this race was more evidence of inconsistency with stewards.

And as Brundle pointed out in ITV coverage, everyone is getting rather jumpy every time something happens and stewards get mentioned.

It never used to be quite as bad as this?

And yet not as bad as last year BY FAR....

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All 4 wheels were off track and on kerb/grass and he just kept going.

Yeah I agree with you here.

Hopefully someone can point us to a video clip that will end all doubt.

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I still think that both cases are about the same. Both Hamilton and Massa had plenty of room to make their manouver more on the outside of the track and avoid the incidents, but they didn't, and someone refused to brake and hit them.

Both are racing incidents that have happened millions of times before with no penalties. The thing is that the stewards thought that Massa HAD to get the penalty because it was a direct fight for the championship. And since they penalized him, they felt obligated to do the same with Bourdais.

I agree with you.

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Both were racing incidents. Bourdais was at fault for the Massa incident as he had no intention to take the racing line and gave Massa no chance to see him because of how wide the track is but it was not worthy of a penalty..

Massa stayed within the contraints of the track and it was a racing incident and it was not a penalty. Both were racing incidents and in the end in sort of evened itself out.

Good to see Hamilton FINALLY get done for his dangerous driving. Pushing someone of the track is so much more dangerous than what Felipe done. Hamilton is cracking again and proved today he is not ready. He was took by Kimi at the first corner and he has to go agressive again. If he stayed behind he would of took Kimi and got the 10 points and basically the title. He has brain and that cost him the points today and probably (And hopefully) the championship. If Massa did not get the penalty today he would of took 3rd place and would only be 1 point behind. It seems to me the McLaren fans could be right the title may be decided off the track but in Hamilton's favour.

I believe it will be Massa will take the title with wins in China and Brazil but Hamilton has had luck for all the races this year except today. Lewis can't take pressure. Lewis's luck is running out and now its time for Felipe to prove he is good enough for Ferrari. IF he wins the last two races he will win the title. Hamilton won't finish second in both. Felipe just needs the Ferrari to have good reliability for the last two race. McLaren's reliabilty could go wrong as we saw with Heikki earlier today. Felipe will win the title as long as he has a little bit of Lewis's luck. Lets hope Lewis finally has a bit of a run of bad luck for the first time in his career and Felipe has a bit of good luck.

China and Brazil are both tracks which favour Ferrari and Brazil is Massa's track. Massa will definately win in Brazil. The title will be decided in China and whoever takes the most points in the next race will win the title. McLaren and Ferrari are both in trouble next year. Honda are the only team to seem to have worked out KERS which will benefit them. BMW have completely focused on 2009 and should make more advances than McLaren and Ferrari. Renault seem to have found some pace with the Renault winning two races in a row on pace. Out of the McLaren and the Ferraris i think the new downforced regulations will favour Felipe most due to his smooth driving style and i believe Lewis will struggle due to his agressive driving style and i think he will lose control more. Out of the BMW's, Renault's and Honda's Fernando, Nick and Jenson should deal well with the lower downforce. I just feel Ferrari and McLaren will struggle against the other teams next year.

Edited by banjo7

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1) Hamilton at the start = a fair but harsh penalty (how many times have we seen a penalty given for incidents like that at the start???)

2) Massa Vs Hamilton at turn 10. Hamilton put a clean but aggressive move on Massa, Massa was forced wide but critically was not forced off the track, he had room to slot back in behind Hamilton, the pass was totally clean. Massa then put two wheels completely off the track, and put Hamilton into a spin, the penalty for this is justified and in my opinion totally black and white.

3) Webber Vs Massa at turn one. Webber went defensive but it was Massa's choice to attack on the inside, so Webber pushing him is fair, this is called racing and no penalites please.

4) Massa Vs Bourdais. For some reason people can't see this very clearly, but basically Bourdais took the corner on the inside, he didn't brake especially late or run wide, he took the corner perfectly legitimately - therefore, it is Massa's job to line up the pass (without driving into Bourdais). The fact Seb was leaving the pits makes no diference, they are still racing for position. Massa should have been calmer and waited. Again, this is racing, if there should be a penalty it should be for Massa, since he drove into the Seb, but really there should be no penalty at all for something like this.

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FIA has gotten themselves into a one way street. That's the problem with micromanaging every race with stewards decisions. Now everything that happens on track raises cries of "penalty! penalty!".

I agree than in other times none of these actiosn would have made the stewards even blink. Otherwise Ralf would have never made it past the green light :lol:

My thoughts on each situation:

1) Hammy: idiotic from a guy that just said he would not do any more banzai moves. Still, just a racing incident. His own tires destroyed by that amateur move were already punishment enough.

2) Massa vs Hammy: tough call. It seems to me that Massa loses control over the kerbs and just can't avoid the collision. I am not sure about that one.

3) Massa vs Bourdais: definitely Massa is to blame. I can't understand how keeping your own racing line and not doing anything out of the ordinary got Bourdais penalised.

4) Massa vs Webber: Again, MW didn't push Massa against the wall, this was no Estoril. It was Massa who unexplainably took the risky way to overtake Webber. Nobody deserves any punishment there.

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Bah...i just found George wrote the same that I did, only with fewer words :meh:

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1) Hamilton at the start = a fair but harsh penalty (how many times have we seen a penalty given for incidents like that at the start???)

2) Massa Vs Hamilton at turn 10. Hamilton put a clean but aggressive move on Massa, Massa was forced wide but critically was not forced off the track, he had room to slot back in behind Hamilton, the pass was totally clean. Massa then put two wheels completely off the track, and put Hamilton into a spin, the penalty for this is justified and in my opinion totally black and white.

3) Webber Vs Massa at turn one. Webber went defensive but it was Massa's choice to attack on the inside, so Webber pushing him is fair, this is called racing and no penalites please.

4) Massa Vs Bourdais. For some reason people can't see this very clearly, but basically Bourdais took the corner on the inside, he didn't brake especially late or run wide, he took the corner perfectly legitimately - therefore, it is Massa's job to line up the pass (without driving into Bourdais). The fact Seb was leaving the pits makes no diference, they are still racing for position. Massa should have been calmer and waited. Again, this is racing, if there should be a penalty it should be for Massa, since he drove into the Seb, but really there should be no penalty at all for something like this.

Murray says it was four. I never record a race, so I am hoping a video clip of this surfaces. I think he was straddling the chicane, and was too aggressive. But they are racing for the WDC, what do you expect.

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FIA has gotten themselves into a one way street. That's the problem with micromanaging every race with stewards decisions. Now everything that happens on track raises cries of "penalty! penalty!".

I agree than in other times none of these actiosn would have made the stewards even blink. Otherwise Ralf would have never made it past the green light :lol:

My thoughts on each situation:

1) Hammy: idiotic from a guy that just said he would not do any more banzai moves. Still, just a racing incident. His own tires destroyed by that amateur move were already punishment enough.

2) Massa vs Hammy: tough call. It seems to me that Massa loses control over the kerbs and just can't avoid the collision. I am not sure about that one.

3) Massa vs Bourdais: definitely Massa is to blame. I can't understand how keeping your own racing line and not doing anything out of the ordinary got Bourdais penalised.

4) Massa vs Webber: Again, MW didn't push Massa against the wall, this was no Estoril. It was Massa who unexplainably took the risky way to overtake Webber. Nobody deserves any punishment there.

Agree on everything except the last part. You can only move once to protect your position. Webber went left. FM went right up the inside and then Webber just kept drifting right. He should have left room for Massa. He made hs choice protecting the outside, and the rules deem he should have stayed there.

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Murray says it was four. I never record a race, so I am hoping a video clip of this surfaces. I think he was straddling the chicane, and was too aggressive. But they are racing for the WDC, what do you expect.

It's fine for him to do that, to put Lewis into a spin since they are battling for the title, I just don't want to hear people defending it because it was fairly clear he didn't have to put two wheels off the track. Personally I don't think he meant to take Lewis out, I think he just panicked at being overtaken, and in the heat of the moment tried a terribly clumsy overtaking manoeuvre. It was never gonna work.

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Murray says it was four. I never record a race, so I am hoping a video clip of this surfaces. I think he was straddling the chicane, and was too aggressive. But they are racing for the WDC, what do you expect.

He had two wheels of the track and two on the apex for me that is perfectly legal.

Video for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5vJPNf2fuQ

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He had two wheels of the track and two on the apex for me that is perfectly legal.

Video for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5vJPNf2fuQ

For you maybe, but not for everyone else. It isn't the racing line, hence it's illegal, especially when you take someone out.

The onboard shows it better, he puts two wheels totally off track, not onto the kerbs, onto the dirt.

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It's fine for him to do that, to put Lewis into a spin since they are battling for the title, I just don't want to hear people defending it because it was fairly clear he didn't have to put two wheels off the track. Personally I don't think he meant to take Lewis out, I think he just panicked at being overtaken, and in the heat of the moment tried a terribly clumsy overtaking manoeuvre. It was never gonna work.

This was a perfect racing incident. It was unlucky and Massa could not really do anything to get back on line after braking to late I don't think he was going for a overtake. Completely different to pushing someone off the track like Lewis does.

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He had two wheels of the track and two on the apex for me that is perfectly legal.

Video for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5vJPNf2fuQ

Thanks for that. It is not nearly as bad as some claim it to be

Edited by YHR

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For you maybe, but not for everyone else. It isn't the racing line, hence it's illegal, especially when you take someone out.

The onboard shows it better, he puts two wheels totally off track, not onto the kerbs, onto the dirt.

Yes he had two wheels on the dirt but if you take a chicane like at the bus stop in spa and you have two wheels on the apex and two cutting the chicane that is considered legal. Just because it is dirt should not change this.

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It's fine for him to do that, to put Lewis into a spin since they are battling for the title, I just don't want to hear people defending it because it was fairly clear he didn't have to put two wheels off the track. Personally I don't think he meant to take Lewis out, I think he just panicked at being overtaken, and in the heat of the moment tried a terribly clumsy overtaking manoeuvre. It was never gonna work.

Hahah, that's why he got a penalty.

By the way Murray is wrong and it's just 2 tires out ot the track (c'mon, that kerb was grass, so he couldn't go that far off and make it in time to hit Hammy I think, but I reckon that the matter with the car on the grass is the one that counts less).

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It's fine for him to do that, to put Lewis into a spin since they are battling for the title, I just don't want to hear people defending it because it was fairly clear he didn't have to put two wheels off the track. Personally I don't think he meant to take Lewis out, I think he just panicked at being overtaken, and in the heat of the moment tried a terribly clumsy overtaking manoeuvre. It was never gonna work.

I agree. He was trying to stay up with Hamilton and probably surprised Hamilton. IF Hamilton had given him room(How could he, he didn't know he was there) I don't think it would have been an incident at all. This was a racing incident, and Massa certainly didn't drive into the side of him.

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Thanks for that. It is not nearly as bad as some claim it to be

Yeah I know it was just a racing incident. Felipe could only take that line after braking to late. Felipe could not get back on line properly and tried his best to keep it on the track. He kept two wheels on the contraints of the track which was perfectly legal and not cutting the chicane. A racing incident creates so much controversy. Bourdais was at fault for the Massa incident but it was a racing incident and he did not deserve a penalty. Massa was at fault for braking to late going into the chicane but it was a racing incident and did not deserve a penalty. In the end it evened itself out. Lewis deserved his penalty because he pushed people of the track and was driving like a nutter as usual.

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