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maure

Hamilton Vs Vettel, See The Video

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hang on maure...

providence:

the foreseeing care and guidance of God or nature over the creatures of the earth.

now if "Hamilton" did better than last year and didn't crash - how is that "providence"?

Choose one of the following (or don't and just ask me a question instead).

1) Hamilton is God - uh - though many would agree with that, I don't, and I'm sure you don't either

2) Hamilton is nature - even stranger, and not a little bit freaky to consider

3) Hamilton didn't crash so providence (god / nature) decided to gift him the win

4) God / nature was kind of undecided on whether to gift Hamilton the win, until he didn't crash, then G/n thought - "oh alright then, you've convinced me, I'll give it to you"

can we also assume the following?:

1) god / nature exists as a sentient being with cognitive powers

2) god / nature (the sentient being) - is an F1 follower and not a massa fan

3) the WDC is a gift given out by a higher being, not a championship set up and run by human beings between people driving cars around 18 tracks over a year.

4) massa not crashing / spinning in previous races didn't get him into god/nature's good books - no pitty there it seems

5) god / nature disagrees with people who aren't Hamifisted fans on the fairness of a Hamilton WDC.

etc

etc

etc

etc

OR

(the red part) - you're speaking out of an orifice other than your mouth.

Face it - he got more points, so he won - simple. Whether he drover "better" or not is subjective - you're not right, Fedup / Murrywalker aren't right - there is no right - just opinion.

You are a good guy.

It wasn't providence that Hamilton didn't crash. That he didn't crash is his merit, as I said. However, it was providence that it restarted to rain in the last lap just enough so that Glock could lose sufficient time for Hamilton (on intermediates) to catch up.

I chose "providence" over chance on that post because I was reflecting on my thoughts at the time this was taking place. This is what I wrote on the issue elsewhere:

Point 7 is Hamilton's curse. Consider what would've happened if the rain had not restarted on the very last lap. Glock's times were enough and it would have been impossible to catch him. Hamilton's failure to win the WDC by losing to Vettel would have been deadly for Hamilton under those circumstances. Those were my precise thoughts when Vettel passed him and Hamilton didn't have it him to win the WDC by himself. I felt sorry for the guy and those that are exploiting him so.

You see, mine was not a "religious" statement per se. I was simply hinting at the fact that the "odds" help a kid in really serious trouble (EDIT: a caring universe?). For all the hatred spun by lewisterics, I think it is good that Hamilton won _precisely_ because of the circumstances. Again, imagine where Hamilton would be right now if pure luck had not fixed his choking. Imagine what lewisterics would be doing to him, right now. The position that Hamilton has been put in is impossible and, on that account, I do empathize with him and his predicament.

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That's the nature of the forum. It is not legitimate to ask certain questions or to pose certain observations. To make matters worse, lewsiteric violence continues to run amok.

On the up side, it is amusing to see people fall apart like that over something as trivial as a sport, and more so when these people are bigots and the like.

First point: blah, blah, Lewisteric, blah....

Second point - I don't see F1 as a sport its a carefully stage managed piece of entertainment. Agree its trivial and indeed was going to write in exactly the same vein about some of your posts.

Maure, why do you get so vitriolic and upset about McLaren/Lewis? Is it really worth raising your blood pressure that much? I honestly find it hard to get that emotional about any driver/team. Taken in isolation perhaps the performance of many of the teams/drivers were not stellar in that race. It was a very good piece of entertainment - best race for some time in an otherwise very average season.

Maybe Sir Stirling Moss was right this race; taken across the whole season though - a different matter, the kid has talent. I don't like him as a personality and not excusing Lewis' c#ckups - some very "hmmmm" moments. Also as I think we agree a less than impressive season for many. Where was Kimi? Why was Felipe so variable? What happened to Kubi? Maybe Lewis was helped by lacklustre competition but he's the one with the gold medal...

Alonso impressed me towards the end of the season, now he has stopped mouthing off and proven himself on the track. Good for him. I hope this form continues. Vettel also impressive, shame he is going to the Holy Cow team.

Still hopefully if FIA can keep their greedy mitts off F1 2009 should be interesting....

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Point 7 is Hamilton's curse. Consider what would've happened if the rain had not restarted on the very last lap. Glock's times were enough and it would have been impossible to catch him. Hamilton's failure to win the WDC by losing to Vettel would have been deadly for Hamilton under those circumstances. Those were my precise thoughts when Vettel passed him and Hamilton didn't have it him to win the WDC by himself. I felt sorry for the guy and those that are exploiting him so.

I actually agree with you, Maure, in the sense that I think Lewis was using every last iota of skill to try and keep up with Vettel, but couldn't. Whether that was down to him tensing up, or because the car wasn't working is impossible to say, people will have their own views, but that's all it is, a view. Personally, I think Lewis may have tensed up a bit. However, when I was watching the onboards from Lewis' car during the race, I actually thought he was going to crash because his car looked such a handful those last couple of laps. That he didn't, in the circumstances, would suggest that maybe he didn't tense up. Of course, it may have looked a handful because he wasn't driving so well. As I say, everybody will have their own view, I guess, but it would be interesting to see onboards from Heikki's car during those last couple of laps too.

What I can't understand, though, is your insistence of luck that it started to rain heavier, or restarted raining on the last lap, because without the rain starting in the first place, Lewis was home and dry in 4th place. To acknowledge or keep insisting on just one part of the equation seems a bit odd, to be honest.

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First point: blah, blah, Lewisteric, blah....

Second point - I don't see F1 as a sport its a carefully stage managed piece of entertainment. Agree its trivial and indeed was going to write in exactly the same vein about some of your posts.

Maure, why do you get so vitriolic and upset about McLaren/Lewis? Is it really worth raising your blood pressure that much? I honestly find it hard to get that emotional about any driver/team. Taken in isolation perhaps the performance of many of the teams/drivers were not stellar in that race. It was a very good piece of entertainment - best race for some time in an otherwise very average season.

Maybe Sir Stirling Moss was right this race; taken across the whole season though - a different matter, the kid has talent. I don't like him as a personality and not excusing Lewis' c#ckups - some very "hmmmm" moments. Also as I think we agree a less than impressive season for many. Where was Kimi? Why was Felipe so variable? What happened to Kubi? Maybe Lewis was helped by lacklustre competition but he's the one with the gold medal...

Alonso impressed me towards the end of the season, now he has stopped mouthing off and proven himself on the track. Good for him. I hope this form continues. Vettel also impressive, shame he is going to the Holy Cow team.

Still hopefully if FIA can keep their greedy mitts off F1 2009 should be interesting....

I agree, Meanie, that maybe it hasn't been a stellar season in terms of the mess ups (seems we can't say c#ck ups anymore). However, personally I think there is more depth of talent in the drivers than there has been in the past and the mess ups have been more costly than they may have been in years gone by.

Also, in any sport, you can only beat what's in front of you and just like somebody being on top of their game can often force the others to follow in their wake, the opposite happen too :lol:

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I actually agree with you, Maure, in the sense that I think Lewis was using every last iota of skill to try and keep up with Vettel, but couldn't. Whether that was down to him tensing up, or because the car wasn't working is impossible to say, people will have their own views, but that's all it is, a view. Personally, I think Lewis may have tensed up a bit. However, when I was watching the onboards from Lewis' car during the race, I actually thought he was going to crash because his car looked such a handful those last couple of laps. That he didn't, in the circumstances, would suggest that maybe he didn't tense up. Of course, it may have looked a handful because he wasn't driving so well. As I say, everybody will have their own view, I guess, but it would be interesting to see onboards from Heikki's car during those last couple of laps too.

What I can't understand, though, is your insistence of luck that it started to rain heavier, or restarted raining on the last lap, because without the rain starting in the first place, Lewis was home and dry in 4th place. To acknowledge or keep insisting on just one part of the equation seems a bit odd, to be honest.

Correct

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After many insults and denials, lewisterics finally begin to admit to themselves that Hamilton chocked when it matter most. They do it insulting, of course, but they do it.

as usual.....typical style of senseless replies, not responding the way you are supposed to do so. As if you read all my posts, I admited Hamilton chocked it over a year back itself, but kept my support for him. And ofcourse you could keep dumping more manure.

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Maure, you can be quite entertaining, when you write stuff like you do on this page.

Here's the thing that absolutely baffles me....How can someone talk sense about anything else but absolutely rubbish when it comes to the the Mclaren/Lewis subject.... You're intelligent man, read the stuff you're posting...

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[quote name='Piotr' post='275077' date='Nov 4 2008, 02:52 PM']Well, we would if the whole of the British Isles stop whining any time somebody tries to race him...[/quote]

The British were at least not booing Hamiltons rivals or their families at Silverstone. And if I remember right it was mostly fans of other teams "whining" when Hamilton fans were shouting that the drivers should be allowed to race.

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To add to my above point Hamilton fans have no fear of racing, when it comes down to a wheel to wheel contest Lewis usually comes out on top as this season has proved. I would think it would be fans of Massa that would be afraid to have their man race with Lewis, as apart from the start at Hungary ( a different type of contest) Felipe didn't win a wheel to wheel contest with Lewis all year, or is passing the top drivers irrelevant.

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You are a good guy.
I asked for that :lol:

It wasn't providence that Hamilton didn't crash. That he didn't crash is his merit, as I said. However, it was providence that it restarted to rain in the last lap just enough so that Glock could lose sufficient time for Hamilton (on intermediates) to catch up.
Okay, but if it was providence that it started raining hard enough on the last lap to drop Glock back, was it not also providence that it started raining at all in the last 6 laps (causing them to have to pit for inters). Remember - before that pit Hamilton was comfortable in 4th and could have had Vettel come past without a worry in the world? Either both were providence or neither - and either way, there's no argument to be made here - there just isn't. Was it not providence that it rained at Silverstone and equally at Monza? - or was it only providence when Hamilton benefitted? Just because it was the last race doesn't make it any more important than those occasions, all races are worth the same number of points after all.

I chose "providence" over chance on that post because I was reflecting on my thoughts at the time this was taking place.
call it either - call it luck, chance, providence, divine intervention - it comes to the same end. Yes chance has an effect on the WDC, it always has, it always will - racing is not a science, it's a sport - but luck is not the be all and end all of it either - it evens out and what comes through are quality cars with competent drivers - otherwise we could stick my granny behind the wheel of a Force India and cross our fingers. This is not Las Vegas either.

This is what I wrote on the issue elsewhere:

Point 7 is Hamilton's curse. Consider what would've happened if the rain had not restarted on the very last lap. Glock's times were enough and it would have been impossible to catch him. Hamilton's failure to win the WDC by losing to Vettel would have been deadly for Hamilton under those circumstances. Those were my precise thoughts when Vettel passed him and Hamilton didn't have it him to win the WDC by himself. I felt sorry for the guy and those that are exploiting him so.

You see, mine was not a "religious" statement per se. I was simply hinting at the fact that the "odds" help a kid in really serious trouble (EDIT: a caring universe?). For all the hatred spun by lewisterics, I think it is good that Hamilton won _precisely_ because of the circumstances. Again, imagine where Hamilton would be right now if pure luck had not fixed his choking. Imagine what lewisterics would be doing to him, right now. The position that Hamilton has been put in is impossible and, on that account, I do empathize with him and his predicament.

:lol: I never took it as a religious sentiment - I credit you with more intelligence than that - my comments were largely tongue in cheek, the main point was the one I've made above.

Your bold sentence here: you have more faith than me - I'd say the odds are that equal measures of good and bad luck will happen to everyone - like rain six laps from the end - causing Hami to drop to fifth then sixth, then more rain assisting his rise from 6th to 5th again - see - it works both ways. Since he actually lost a place (4th - 5th) over the last 6 laps - one might argue that he had more bad luck than good - no?

You see - if you bring luck into the equation then there's never a winner. Luck runs both ways and the concept of what is luck and what isn't and what constitutes more or less luck is totally subjective. I could say Sutil deserved to be WDC, he just had bad luck. Who's to say I'm wrong? But that would be a pointless discussion - as is this one - think about why.

i) To argue that Hamilton won the WDC on pure skill alone is incorrect. (Lewisterics)

ii) To argue that he won it on luck alone is equally false. (Hamophobics)

iii) To say that he was more or less lucky than the other drivers is purely subjective and therefore groundless (Anyone who can't accept the facts as they are)

So what do we have to fall back on?

1 point. That's the only non-negotiable fact.

...and voodoo dolls.

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5. They have been doing this since Monaco last year when Hamilton started the war against Alonso by claiming that he would have passed him if it wasn't for team orders, despite of Alonso racing most of the race with the rev limiter on...

Hamilton never claimed that, you've just made that up. Prove me wrong with a quote, I dare you.

Point 7 is Hamilton's curse. Consider what would've happened if the rain had not restarted on the very last lap. Glock's times were enough and it would have been impossible to catch him. Hamilton's failure to win the WDC by losing to Vettel would have been deadly for Hamilton under those circumstances. Those were my precise thoughts when Vettel passed him and Hamilton didn't have it him to win the WDC by himself. I felt sorry for the guy and those that are exploiting him so.

If Hamilton had failed to win the WDC on Sunday, it wouldn't have been purely down to Vettel passing him. You are yet again completely ignoring the other 17 races.

The position that Hamilton has been put in is impossible and, on that account, I do empathize with him and his predicament.

:lol: Yea he's in a predicament, if thats what you call being world champion and on top of the world!!!

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I'm watching the race now, and Vettel's pace relative to Lewis depended on how wet the track was, like I said all along. McLaren were running very low downforce settings as you can see from the speed trap data, and the STR is a very fast car in those conditions, so much so that Alonso said it was no surprise when they won Monza (with _even_ Bourdais qualifying 4th).

Back to Interlagos: during the first half lap on the wet but drying track, Vettel overtook Alonso at the start, and then flew right past the helpless McLaren of Kova on the straight and was right up behind Lewis when the SC came out. On the first lap after the SC (lap 5) Vettel was 0.2s faster than Lewis, then Lewis went 0.2s and then 0.3s faster, by which point everyone started to pit for dry tyres again. While this was going on, Bourdais in the other STR was all over the back of Kova. So when it was wet early on, both STRs were probably quicker than both McLarens. Only as the track dried out did the McLarens start to pull away.

The lap times when Lewis was passed by Vettel until the end of the race were back to those early, wet times (despite the much lower fuel loads), which is no real surprise because it was raining significantly by then, whereas after the SC pitted it hadn't rained for about 20 minutes and they'd done 5 laps to dry the racing line out. So it's quite simple: the McLaren couldn't keep up in those conditions.

Even if Lewis did tense up, which isn't the case imho given the above, then he's in fine company with Schumacher. That flaw, which is surely indisputable, never stopped Schumacher being regarded as one of the best ever.

Regarding McLaren's apparently contradictory statements, I suspect the different team members are talking about different stages of the race. Before it started to rain heavily again I think the team told Hamilton not to race Vettel too much. Then, after Glock didn't pit and the rain didn't come as soon as they expected, of course it was a different story....until a lap later when they realised it was raining enough, finally.

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Lewis was told to get the place back from Vettel, he just didn't have the pace for the reasons outline above. Mclaren were very fortunate that Glock miraculously slowed down for that final lap and the rain started to come down harder otherwise they would have lost the WDC with the team's shambolic tactics the most culpable.

Lewis losing the place to Vettel was part pressure, part Kubica and part Lewis tensing up. Vettel was quick in that segment of the race so I wouldn't have blamed Lewis if he had lost the WDC for losing the place.

Meanwhile, Barrack Obama is the next US President and Lewis is the current WDC

:yahoo:

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Maure, why do you get so vitriolic and upset about McLaren/Lewis? Is it really worth raising your blood pressure that much?

I think you already realized once that you assessment of me was erroneous. Push a little further and realize now that the only thing that might raise my blood pressure is laughter. I consider it a form of exercise, actually. And, believe it or not, I often walk away from the forums with my face hurting from laughter. I find the experience quite cleansing, to be honest, and a very relaxing distraction from research work.

Maybe Sir Stirling Moss was right this race; taken across the whole season though - a different matter, the kid has talent. I don't like him as a personality and not excusing Lewis' c#ckups - some very "hmmmm" moments. Also as I think we agree a less than impressive season for many. Where was Kimi? Why was Felipe so variable? What happened to Kubi? Maybe Lewis was helped by lacklustre competition but he's the one with the gold medal...

Of course Hamilton has talent. He drives a F1 car, ffs. And he did good too, at times. So?

This thread is about whether or not he choked in Brazil as well as why the WDC resolved as it did in Brazil. You've seen the video and read the possible exculpatory scenarios. You are, naturally, free to make up your mind as you please.

Alonso impressed me towards the end of the season, now he has stopped mouthing off and proven himself on the track. Good for him. I hope this form continues. Vettel also impressive, shame he is going to the Holy Cow team.

Vettel, indeed.

Alonso, well, he overworked the Renault at first which is informative for those that complain about the midfield not trying hard enough. Now they got to see what happens when you drive too hard.

Regarding the end of the season, Alonso got lucky in different ways and his overall standing is magnified only because those in top teams sucked. In a competitive season, Alonso would have not been able to stand out as much considering what he was driving.

Still hopefully if FIA can keep their greedy mitts off F1 2009 should be interesting....

FIA was all but invisible in Brazil. Refreshing, wasn't it?

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Your inability to distinguish a Toro Rosso from a McLaren leads you to also confuse the chance given to each, not to mention who of the two had an entire team at his feet from the get go.

I wasn't comparing a Toro Rosso to a Mclaren, I was comparing it to a GP2 car, which is what Hamilton was driving when he was Fettel kid's age. So you still stand by your 'so young, so few opportunities' comment, when Fettel kid has had more opportunities than Hamilton had at the same age?

You are free to search the archives for a world championship that was won by fortune two curves to the flag after the guy that eventually won had lost it two laps back to an inferior car.

You still haven't told me how it matters whether the 'stroke of luck' occurs in the first corner of the first race or the last corner of the last race? The former seems perfectly acceptable for you, while the latter somehow makes the championship win undeserved?

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I actually agree with you, Maure, in the sense that I think Lewis was using every last iota of skill to try and keep up with Vettel, but couldn't. Whether that was down to him tensing up, or because the car wasn't working is impossible to say, people will have their own views, but that's all it is, a view. Personally, I think Lewis may have tensed up a bit. However, when I was watching the onboards from Lewis' car during the race, I actually thought he was going to crash because his car looked such a handful those last couple of laps. That he didn't, in the circumstances, would suggest that maybe he didn't tense up. Of course, it may have looked a handful because he wasn't driving so well. As I say, everybody will have their own view, I guess, but it would be interesting to see onboards from Heikki's car during those last couple of laps too.

What I can't understand, though, is your insistence of luck that it started to rain heavier, or restarted raining on the last lap, because without the rain starting in the first place, Lewis was home and dry in 4th place. To acknowledge or keep insisting on just one part of the equation seems a bit odd, to be honest.

After it started raining and intermediates were fitted in some cars, the rain eased off. Glock was able to maintain his pace until the rain restarted again on the last lap and it was _then_ that Glock's performance dropped.

Watch the ITV. The commentators relate all this.

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:D you ignored my post again maure

I feel shunned - no - vindicated - no - tired - no - bored - immensly - bored.

please someone put this thread out of it's misery - it should have been ground up as sheep fodder and fed to it's parents as soon as it's poor afterbirth encrusted body slipped out on the floor of the barn that we call the totalF1 forums.

can you not hear it calling admins? - "baaaaah kill me please kill me". oh the humanity - it's deformed, bloated little body is suffering can't you see? it would be the kindest thing.

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:D you ignored my post again maure

You must have proved him wrong about something ;) He generally ignores posts when that happens.

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Maure, you can be quite entertaining, when you write stuff like you do on this page.

Here's the thing that absolutely baffles me....How can someone talk sense about anything else but absolutely rubbish when it comes to the the Mclaren/Lewis subject.... You're intelligent man, read the stuff you're posting...

At a time when some of the most recalcitrant posters are finally coming around to what I'm saying, well,...

In any case, I think it is you who should drop the "Mclaren/Lewis" view of things. It will help you understand that, in most cases, I simply react to the topics people themselves choose and react so in order to amuse myself. Most of this thread went astray because lewisterics flipped out and I get a kick out of seeing them struggle.

As common sense seems to be returning and the after-race emotions give way to more calm thinking, their posts are less extreme and I respond in kind. The conversation, therefore, goes back to my original intention, the racing.

The truly fun detours are appreciated though. And so, I want to thank you for trying to make me responsible for the actions of others. Fun, fun stuff.

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You must have proved him wrong about something ;) He generally ignores posts when that happens.

Again blaming others for your own faults...

Hilarious.

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The British were at least not booing Hamiltons rivals or their families at Silverstone. And if I remember right it was mostly fans of other teams "whining" when Hamilton fans were shouting that the drivers should be allowed to race.

British are human too.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...es_art_id=36506

Besides which, while most of the Brits around here are good folk, it is also true that most of the violent bigots that post in this forum are British.

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Again blaming others for your own faults...

Hilarious.

Hey I am just pointing out the fact that you still haven't explained your 'so young, so few opportunities' comment about Fettel kid :D I await enlightenment.

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I think you already realized once that you assessment of me was erroneous. Push a little further and realize now that the only thing that might raise my blood pressure is laughter. I consider it a form of exercise, actually. And, believe it or not, I often walk away from the forums with my face hurting from laughter. I find the experience quite cleansing, to be honest, and a very relaxing distraction from research work.

Maure, I reckon that, while it might not raise your blood pressure (which is good), you really do have some issue with the McLaren side of things. And probably not even the team, and definitely not Hamilton, but something along the lines of Ron Dennis? Last year that was the name that ignited you the most. So you can choose not to answer me, but my question is, what did Dennis do to deserve your constant criticism? (At any given point in time). Or if it's not him, then can you discern another cause? Because for example this year Ferrari have screwed up more than once, but your comments on that didn't go half as far as your comments about a mismanaged McLaren team I have read before.

FIA was all but invisible in Brazil. Refreshing, wasn't it?

For sure!

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