Hamilton Vs Vettel, See The Video

[freaky2 1]

to play devil's advocate here.

IN MAURE'S DEFENSE...

Having watched the end of the race 3 times now - this was my take.

When they came out on inters, McLaren realised Ham was 5th and that Glock was ahead still on slicks. At that point it wasn't raining hard enough for Ham to catch Glock at all - that is beyond dispute - even Brundle made that comment - Glock's lap times were virtually identical to Ham and Vettel's and he was way ahead.

At that point they must have told Ham "keep Vettel behind!!!!!!" because they needed to - they didn't know if the rain would start down properly or not (it was only drizzling then) - Glock's gamble might have paid off.

He did indeed keep Vettel behind for a while, but then came Kubica (which I don't blame him for - he's a racer, if he can unlap himself, why the **** shouldn't he?) and with that and the onset of real rain Hamilton lost the place to Vettel - that was definately NOT deliberate - no matter who claimed differently later. They would have been telling Hamilton then "get that place back, you're 6th!" there's absolutely no doubt.

Soon after that McLaren will have noticed Glock was dropping back (it started at around the time of Vettel's pass and would have shown up in Glock's sector times) and that Ham may be able to pass him. I'm sure that at no point until the pass on Glock was certain, did anyone at McLaren tell Hami "you don't need to repass Vettel, cos we'll overtake Glock". There simply wasn't the certainty that that would happen for them to risk saying it to Hami.

Hamilton also said afterwards that he DID NOT KNOW he was fifth until after the first corner after finishing the race (having overtaken Glock 2 corners previously). So if he didn't know, then it follows that the McLaren team weren't sure either - not until the final positions came through and they could confirm it. This all points to what Maure is saying being very true. They tried to claim afterwards - "oh we knew that we could catch Glock, so Vettel wasn't a problem" - that I don't believe - they were bricking it and weren't sure until he crossed the line - whatever they said later.

BUT

AGAINST MAURE...

Who really gives a crap?

Come on buddy, bringing this up (while it does prove that McLaren don't wish to look like fools and would rather be seen as cool calm and collected / in control of everything) is pointless.

McLaren, like any team, will do their crowing. From the other side of the fence, listening to that crowing is all part of not being in the McLaren club. Ferrari and Massa have set a fantastic example in being as gracious as they and he were. I suggest we all follow that lead. By picking up on silly things like this, it reflects far less kindly on your own attitude than it does on McLaren's.

What ever you may think, now's not the time to air it because it inevitably sounds like sour grapes. Whether it is or not is for you to decide. Though I may agree with the facts in question, I disagree with the motivation for bothering to make a topic about it. I also disagree with any assumption that it is in the slightest bit important. It's a non-starter, it doesn't matter, who cares?

He won - well done to him. They won, well done to them. That's life, that's sport.

AND LASTLY...

Would you believe it - having missed 3 races this season, but calculating on average, I would have been in 33rd place with 5586 points in the PPP competition - as it is, I finished 160th with 4655 points - boo hoo.

I doubt the forums will be that busy in the off season (though I'll occasionally look in) so cheerio to everyone until 2009 - **** me - a whole winter without F1.

It's been fun. - Take care all.

Well said. I hope everyone takes time to let it sink in.

Ah, and about the PPP, I missed 1/3 of the season, and I think at least 4 were one of the most predictable races ever, and I finished 232, so I'm proud of myself^^

Oh, don't run, give people time to pick on you XD

[Fed up 0]

to play devil's advocate here.

IN MAURE'S DEFENSE...

Having watched the end of the race 3 times now - this was my take.

When they came out on inters, McLaren realised Ham was 5th and that Glock was ahead still on slicks. At that point it wasn't raining hard enough for Ham to catch Glock at all - that is beyond dispute - even Brundle made that comment - Glock's lap times were virtually identical to Ham and Vettel's and he was way ahead.

At that point they must have told Ham "keep Vettel behind!!!!!!" because they needed to - they didn't know if the rain would start down properly or not (it was only drizzling then) - Glock's gamble might have paid off.

He did indeed keep Vettel behind for a while, but then came Kubica (which I don't blame him for - he's a racer, if he can unlap himself, why the **** shouldn't he?) and with that and the onset of real rain Hamilton lost the place to Vettel - that was definately NOT deliberate - no matter who claimed differently later. They would have been telling Hamilton then "get that place back, you're 6th!" there's absolutely no doubt.

Soon after that McLaren will have noticed Glock was dropping back (it started at around the time of Vettel's pass and would have shown up in Glock's sector times) and that Ham may be able to pass him. I'm sure that at no point until the pass on Glock was certain, did anyone at McLaren tell Hami "you don't need to repass Vettel, cos we'll overtake Glock". There simply wasn't the certainty that that would happen for them to risk saying it to Hami.

Hamilton also said afterwards that he DID NOT KNOW he was fifth until after the first corner after finishing the race (having overtaken Glock 2 corners previously). So if he didn't know, then it follows that the McLaren team weren't sure either - not until the final positions came through and they could confirm it. This all points to what Maure is saying being very true. They tried to claim afterwards - "oh we knew that we could catch Glock, so Vettel wasn't a problem" - that I don't believe - they were bricking it and weren't sure until he crossed the line - whatever they said later.

BUT

AGAINST MAURE...

Who really gives a crap?

Come on buddy, bringing this up (while it does prove that McLaren don't wish to look like fools and would rather be seen as cool calm and collected / in control of everything) is pointless.

McLaren, like any team, will do their crowing. From the other side of the fence, listening to that crowing is all part of not being in the McLaren club. Ferrari and Massa have set a fantastic example in being as gracious as they and he were. I suggest we all follow that lead. By picking up on silly things like this, it reflects far less kindly on your own attitude than it does on McLaren's.

What ever you may think, now's not the time to air it because it inevitably sounds like sour grapes. Whether it is or not is for you to decide. Though I may agree with the facts in question, I disagree with the motivation for bothering to make a topic about it. I also disagree with any assumption that it is in the slightest bit important. It's a non-starter, it doesn't matter, who cares?

He won - well done to him. They won, well done to them. That's life, that's sport.

AND LASTLY...

Would you believe it - having missed 3 races this season, but calculating on average, I would have been in 33rd place with 5586 points in the PPP competition - as it is, I finished 160th with 4655 points - boo hoo.

I doubt the forums will be that busy in the off season (though I'll occasionally look in) so bye to everyone until 2009 - **** me - a whole winter without F1.

It's been fun. - Take care all.

10/10

Spot on

[maure 1]

You guys are fun. You didn't have to be, but you are.

Why this thread indeed? Because when I mentioned the obvious, it was denied and on account of those denials, here we are. You people making up excuses, me enjoying myself.

If you were to interested in racing, this thread would've never started. As you continue to deny what happened, I continue to laugh it up.

Observe.

If it had not started raining _again_ and on the last lap, Hamilton would have lost the WDC because he couldn't beat a Toro Rosso.

Twist it, misconstrue it, lie about it, fabricate magical setups, insult, whatever,.. just bring it on. Your denials, please.

[Max Mosley 2]

Nonsense, Maure. You've been trying to argue that we can make a fair comparison between Vettel and Hamilton based on this example. No one denies that Vettel was quicker at that time.

[maure 1]

No it wasn't. Some randomness happened to occur right at the end that's all. There was plenty of other randomness throughout the season.

They have been won on skill and a bit of luck and having the right car under you. It's not a pure drivers' championship.

And he started poorly, while Hamilton started well. The beginning and the end of the season count for exactly the same, so that's a very lame argument.

About the same as Massa got in the last 9-10 races (can't be bothered counting), so what's your point? Renault improved in the second half. We know that. Alonso drove well i nthe second half and drove crap in the first. We know that too. So what's your point?

Alonso had a ocuple of horrid drives that let Michael back into the championship. Again, just because something occurs in the last race doesn't make it more important. The season has 18/19 races, they all count equally.

There have been 4 world championships in the last 10 years that came down to a single point. So again, hardly unique.

The so called top guns of a few years ago aren't driving too well either, so it's more likely that the new regulations are making them struggle.

In short. You claim that all winners of the past lost the championship to a much inferior car (like Hamilton did) and then won it back only by pure chance two curves from the finish line.

The things you guys tell yourselves. Hilarious.

[maure 1]

Nonsense, Maure. You've been trying to argue that we can make a fair comparison between Vettel and Hamilton based on this example. No one denies that Vettel was quicker at that time.

You mean "at that time" when Hamilton had everything to lose but, you say, did not try his "hardest"?

[5P33D3V1L 0]

Quite ironic,

that in around 2 years time it will be Kubica, Vettel (in a Ferrari) and Hamilton all fighting it out for the world championship one day rather than for 5th place and unlapping yourself.

[Max Mosley 2]

You mean "at that time" when Hamilton had everything to lose but, you say, did not try his "hardest"?

At that time when Lewis's car wasn't working well. We'll have to wait a bit longer before decided how good Vettel really is.

[freaky2 1]

At that time when Lewis's car wasn't working well. We'll have to wait a bit longer before decided how good Vettel really is.

Obviously. I rate him quite more for winning a race in a Toro Rosso!!

EDIT: I still want to know what was the matter with Hamilton's car. You all say it wasn't working well, but any reason for that? It was slower, ok, but that doesn't rest merit to the overtaking. Maybe Kubica does a bit, but that's it.

[Max Mosley 2]

He's obviously very good. But I also think that STR was a good car, especially in certain conditions. Even Alonso said he had been expecting STR to win.

EDIT: He and Kova had low downforce setups, so they weren't working well in the wet. The weather forecasts were hopeless and they seem to have raced on Sunday assuming it wasn't going to rain again, which was a big mistake in the end.

[freaky2 1]

He's obviously very good. But I also think that STR was a good car, especially in certain conditions. Even Alonso said he had been expecting STR to win.

EDIT: He and Kova had low downforce setups, so they weren't working well in the wet. The weather forecasts were hopeless and they seem to have raced on Sunday assuming it wasn't going to rain again, which was a big mistake in the end.

About Vettel, no one here has said he's better than Hamilton (except for maure but that calls for another post ). And all of Hamilton's race wins have been in a superior car. Don't forget that. Also the front runners(teams) should be quite ashamed of themselves for letting a Toro Rosso beat them, why are they spending such an insane lot of money for their cars then??

And ok about the McLarens. But remember Schumi driving slicks in the wet (my dad's tale, but who cares XD) and then tell me they couldn't cope with the low downforce thing. (Sorry about not having a clue about car setup ).

[cavallino 2]

In short. You claim that all winners of the past lost the championship to a much inferior car (like Hamilton did) and then won it back only by pure chance two curves from the finish line.

Many championships in the past (4 in the last 10 years) could have gone to someone else if one small event had turned out differently. As I explained, whether that happens in the last race or first is irrelevant. You're in denial about the basic nature of F1, it's not always fair.

[cavallino 2]

About Vettel, no one here has said he's better than Hamilton (except for maure but that calls for another post ). And all of Hamilton's race wins have been in a superior car. Don't forget that. Also the front runners(teams) should be quite ashamed of themselves for letting a Toro Rosso beat them, why are they spending such an insane lot of money for their cars then??

And ok about the McLarens. But remember Schumi driving slicks in the wet (my dad's tale, but who cares XD) and then tell me they couldn't cope with the low downforce thing. (Sorry about not having a clue about car setup ).

The Toro Rosso is a Newey designed car, and they have four cars and two teams' budget to play with.

[freaky2 1]

Many championships in the past (4 in the last 10 years) could have gone to someone else if one small event had turned out differently. As I explained, whether that happens in the last race or first is irrelevant. You're in denial about the basic nature of F1, it's not always fair.

You're right.

The Toro Rosso is a Newey designed car, and they have four cars and two teams' budget to play with.

You could be right, I'm so clueless that I write and wait for people to scold me for being uninformed XD

[Alan333 0]

I became indiffernt to the outcome of the season long ago. Anyone interested in F1 racing did the same.

The tricky thing for you is that you know well what a phenomenal luck Hamilton had to have to get the WDC. Morevover, you know too that Hamilton again sunk when it mattered most. You have a lot to worry about for "a whole year". Thus, the denials.

Last year, you two went on and on about how Kimi would want to win again because that time he was just lucky. Now that Hamilton won by so much luck that is almost inexplicable, you try to pretend it away with "magical setups" and similar absurdities.

There is the video. There are the ITV commentators' observations as it happened. There are Hamilton's own words. Do not fight it. Hamilton is WDC, why continue to lie to yourself? What need is there? Hooliganism.

Hello Maure have you been sniffing glue again? I'm trying to see the point of this thread and failing resolutely. Is your point that Vettel and Kubica with nothing to lose were faster than Hamilton in Brazil? Maybe the point is that the WDC is only one race long and all the rest of the races are irrelevant. Do you think that because these drivers were faster than Hamilton in very specific conditions, Mclaren should get shot of Lewis and replace him with Vettel or Kubica? Why do you even watch F1 if it makes you so miserable? So many questions, ah well at least you must be running short on glue by now.

[maure 1]

At that time when Lewis's car wasn't working well. We'll have to wait a bit longer before decided how good Vettel really is.

Amusing you forget that "that time" was precisely when the championship was at stake and _lost_... by Hamilton and againt Vettel in a much inferior car.

Amusing and understandable. You are still in shock.

Last year, all of you were quick to say that Kimi's victory had less merit because he got lucky.

This year, the amount of luck Hamilton needed was so enourmous, that you still cannot comprehend it. Add to that the fact that Hamilton created the situation in the first place by losing to a Toro Rosso and... well, here you are, unable to process what happened. If and when you do acknowledge what happened, your suspicions will lead to the acceptance that Hamilton's merit amounts to almost, almost, a win in name only.

[maure 1]

About Vettel, no one here has said he's better than Hamilton (except for maure but that calls for another post ).

Can you really say that Vettel was not superior to Hamilton when Hamilton was fighting for the championship in a superior car? I would like to see how you spin that one.

Don't forget that once Hamilton lost to Vettel, he had nothing to lose by attacking as he had thrown everything away already. Still Vettel beat him.

Honestly, Vettel was far superior. Far. Excuses regarding setup are amusing but ludicrous. Kubica passed Vettel, thus showing the pecking order was maintained. Hamilton was worse than them all because he was overwhelmed by pressure and did not have what it takes when it mattered most.

[freaky2 1]

Amusing you forget that "that time" was precisely when the championship was at stake and _lost_... by Hamilton and againt Vettel in a much inferior car.

Amusing and understandable. You are still in shock.

Last year, all of you were quick to say that Kimi's victory had less merit because he got lucky.

This year, the amount of luck Hamilton needed was so enourmous, that you still cannot comprehend it. Add to that the fact that Hamilton created the situation in the first place by losing to a Toro Rosso and... well, here you are, unable to process what happened. If and when you do acknowledge what happened, your suspicions will lead to the acceptance that Hamilton's merit amounts to almost, almost, a win in name only.

Ok, I know Murray is having fun with this stupid conversation but I don't give a damn. Maure, Vettel could have lost him the championship as much as any other point he lost during the other 17 races. Also for most of the race Hamilton was 4th or 5th, thus in control of the situation. Before the last rain it was quite improbable that something weird would happen. And after the last rain there were like 4 laps! He got overtaken 1 and a half from the end! You know it's not easy to overtake a car in F1, so that he didn't pass Vettel doesn't mean that he's rubbish. Also the Toro Rosso wasn't slow or anything, which is usually the requisite for an overtake.

[cavallino 2]

Amusing you forget that "that time" was precisely when the championship was at stake and _lost_... by Hamilton and againt Vettel in a much inferior car.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or is it really so hard for you to comprehend that the STR may have been the better car in those conditions? Remember Monza, where in the wet Vettel won a pole to finish race?

[maure 1]

Many championships in the past (4 in the last 10 years) could have gone to someone else if one small event had turned out differently. As I explained, whether that happens in the last race or first is irrelevant. You're in denial about the basic nature of F1, it's not always fair.

Could've but didn't, desperate man.

Moreover, if those speculative situations had been provoked by the lack of skill of the leader at the time, the situation would be the exact same.

But it didn't happen in the past and your confusion of reality with speculation is as amusing as your ignorance of "the basic nature of F1".

Regarding "fairness", who cares? The racing of the current WDC sucked enough to lose him a championship that he ended up winning only by luck.

[Quiet One 15]

Hey! Can I join in?

Actually Adamstrags have said most of what I wanted to say. So, on second thought, I won't.

But, Maure, you are starting to sound like a Vettelsteric!

It is clear that Interlagos wasn't excatly Macca's finest moment, it almost ruined Lewis championship and evidently made it look like less impressive. But you can't extrapolate much more without seriously distorting the rest of the season.

[maure 1]

Ok, I know Murray is having fun with this stupid conversation but I don't give a damn. Maure, Vettel could have lost him the championship as much as any other point he lost during the other 17 races. Also for most of the race Hamilton was 4th or 5th, thus in control of the situation. Before the last rain it was quite improbable that something weird would happen. And after the last rain there were like 4 laps! He got overtaken 1 and a half from the end! You know it's not easy to overtake a car in F1, so that he didn't pass Vettel doesn't mean that he's rubbish. Also the Toro Rosso wasn't slow or anything, which is usually the requisite for an overtake.

Murray is struggling. As with everyone else, you can tell this is so when a person uses lies. No one does that if they have better options.

Regarding the race, Haimlton was 4th and cruising. The fastest cars were ahead, slower ones behind. In control? Sure, no one able to challenge him had the car to get anywhere close to him.

The important and interesting issue to consider is how poorly Hamilton responded under pressure when, in the last few laps, the ant trail was showered with rain. There is no need ro say that Hamilton was/is rubbish. Passing is difficult, as you say, and Vettel did it to Hamilton with a much inferior car. On skill alone, Hamilton lost the WDC.

Ultimately, and as I said, this is less about Hamilton than it is about Vettel. Incredible kid, so young, so few opportunites (compared to the well connected drivers), and yet humilliating who is know a WDC.

[maure 1]

Hey! Can I join in?

Actually Adamstrags have said most of what I wanted to say. So, on second thought, I won't.

But, Maure, you are starting to sound like a Vettelsteric!

It is clear that Interlagos wasn't excatly Macca's finest moment, it almost ruined Lewis championship and evidently made it look like less impressive. But you can't extrapolate much more without seriously distorting the rest of the season.

Adam posted? I'll check it out.

You got me smiling with the Vettelsteric bit. He did amazingly well, though.

Regarding this poor season, well, there it is. What can I say? The level of competition is worse every year. I suppose that is why I am pleased to see Kubica and Vettel strong. It brings hope that another season like this one is less likely to happen...

[maure 1]

to play devil's advocate here.

IN MAURE'S DEFENSE...

Having watched the end of the race 3 times now - this was my take.

When they came out on inters, McLaren realised Ham was 5th and that Glock was ahead still on slicks. At that point it wasn't raining hard enough for Ham to catch Glock at all - that is beyond dispute - even Brundle made that comment - Glock's lap times were virtually identical to Ham and Vettel's and he was way ahead.

At that point they must have told Ham "keep Vettel behind!!!!!!" because they needed to - they didn't know if the rain would start down properly or not (it was only drizzling then) - Glock's gamble might have paid off.

He did indeed keep Vettel behind for a while, but then came Kubica (which I don't blame him for - he's a racer, if he can unlap himself, why the **** shouldn't he?) and with that and the onset of real rain Hamilton lost the place to Vettel - that was definately NOT deliberate - no matter who claimed differently later. They would have been telling Hamilton then "get that place back, you're 6th!" there's absolutely no doubt.

Soon after that McLaren will have noticed Glock was dropping back (it started at around the time of Vettel's pass and would have shown up in Glock's sector times) and that Ham may be able to pass him. I'm sure that at no point until the pass on Glock was certain, did anyone at McLaren tell Hami "you don't need to repass Vettel, cos we'll overtake Glock". There simply wasn't the certainty that that would happen for them to risk saying it to Hami.

Hamilton also said afterwards that he DID NOT KNOW he was fifth until after the first corner after finishing the race (having overtaken Glock 2 corners previously). So if he didn't know, then it follows that the McLaren team weren't sure either - not until the final positions came through and they could confirm it. This all points to what Maure is saying being very true. They tried to claim afterwards - "oh we knew that we could catch Glock, so Vettel wasn't a problem" - that I don't believe - they were bricking it and weren't sure until he crossed the line - whatever they said later.

BUT

AGAINST MAURE...

Who really gives a crap?

Come on buddy, bringing this up (while it does prove that McLaren don't wish to look like fools and would rather be seen as cool calm and collected / in control of everything) is pointless.

McLaren, like any team, will do their crowing. From the other side of the fence, listening to that crowing is all part of not being in the McLaren club. Ferrari and Massa have set a fantastic example in being as gracious as they and he were. I suggest we all follow that lead. By picking up on silly things like this, it reflects far less kindly on your own attitude than it does on McLaren's.

What ever you may think, now's not the time to air it because it inevitably sounds like sour grapes. Whether it is or not is for you to decide. Though I may agree with the facts in question, I disagree with the motivation for bothering to make a topic about it. I also disagree with any assumption that it is in the slightest bit important. It's a non-starter, it doesn't matter, who cares?

He won - well done to him. They won, well done to them. That's life, that's sport.

AND LASTLY...

Would you believe it - having missed 3 races this season, but calculating on average, I would have been in 33rd place with 5586 points in the PPP competition - as it is, I finished 160th with 4655 points - boo hoo.

I doubt the forums will be that busy in the off season (though I'll occasionally look in) so bye to everyone until 2009 - **** me - a whole winter without F1.

It's been fun. - Take care all.

I missed your post. Thank you for making it about me. It makes me feel fuzzy inside... which will drive Cavallino nuts since he demands to be the center of it all.

The "sour grapes" thingy is really lost on me. I know you are interested in racing, like I am, but are you yourself so emotionally involved in the sports as the heroworshippers? I don't think so, to be honest.

I, for one, find that kind of relationship with drivers inexplicable.

Anyway, it is not about me. It is about the race. I think you get that.

[Quiet One 15]

Adam posted? I'll check it out.

You got me smiling with the Vettelsteric bit. He did amazingly well, though.

Regarding this poor season, well, there it is. What can I say? The level of competition is worse every year. I suppose that is why I am pleased to see Kubica and Vettel strong. It brings hope that another season like this one is less likely to happen...

Yes, there was too much sloppiness this season, I guess that we were used to more mature drivers in the championship fight, but that does not mean they are not skilled. Alonso and Massa seem to have improved a lot in the personality department. Kimi now has 4 months to decide whether he enjoys F1 enough to put all his potential there. Kubica's potential is all there, waiting for a car to help him deliver. Vettel seems like he is one of the chosen few who can be better than his car. And Lewis, now that he has a WDC under his belt, can throw away his diapers and drive next year as we all expected him to drive. As you can see, in the drivers department we are far better than the days when it all came to Schumi.