Your 2009 Honda Line Uo

[Jez 0]

Maybe replace barrichello with Wurz! Other than that, same team as 2008! Rubens might have another year left in him!

I think Wurz would be worse. *sighs*

[The Burro 0]

I think Wurz would be worse. *sighs*

I'm not Jez, but I approve this message anyway.

On a side note, no Rubes to ALMS or IRL like it was rumored. It's F1 or the rocking chair for Barichello. I hope it's the former. I actually like Rubens. Does that make me a freak? Probably, but...

[maure 1]

Button, always. Give the guy a decent car and let him race.

RB should have retired on his own. He's had a good run.

Senna? Grassi? Toss a coin.

[that-john-kydd 0]

With their car performing just as bad as this year's they could hire me - I'd be cheaper than anybody else and deliver just as few points

in that case they should offer villeneuve a seat afterall once they hit rock bottom there's nowhere to go but up right?

[Jem of the Shire 0]

Button is past it IMHO, Honda would do well to pair Ruebens with an up and coming talent. Jense was roundly beaten by Ruebens in 2008 so hiring him would effectively be rewarding mediocrity. I honestly like Jense, but think he lacks focus and perhaps needs a short sharp shock to get him back on track.

JB just needs a decent car. I disagree with you that he was roundly beaten though, they were quite even this year except silverstone when RB was in the right place at the right time & kept it on the road to come 3rd (well done to him).

I think some of you are forgetting the seasons when JB did have a good car ('04 & '06) and how very very good he was at those times. In 2007 he was still on top of Rubens but this season admittedly he's not got that edge and you cant really blame him. In post-race interviews this year he generally seemed downhearted, & it must've affected his performance.

In karting he was labelled 'the new senna' as he easily won all championships he entered. He's a special and natural talent who should've been put in a championship-winning car ages ago. I still feel very strongly that if Honda give him a good car, he will produce the results and will beat Rubens consistently

[Medilloni 6]

JB just needs a decent car. I disagree with you that he was roundly beaten though, they were quite even this year except silverstone when RB was in the right place at the right time & kept it on the road to come 3rd (well done to him).

I think some of you are forgetting the seasons when JB did have a good car ('04 & '06) and how very very good he was at those times. In 2007 he was still on top of Rubens but this season admittedly he's not got that edge and you cant really blame him. In post-race interviews this year he generally seemed downhearted, & it must've affected his performance.

In karting he was labelled 'the new senna' as he easily won all championships he entered. He's a special and natural talent who should've been put in a championship-winning car ages ago. I still feel very strongly that if Honda give him a good car, he will produce the results and will beat Rubens consistently

Well put Jem, I agree.

Watchers of F1 rarely follow the path of a driver in any detail if they're not a fan of them, so it's easy to jump on the 'he doesn't deserve it, he's washed out' band wagon. The driver I've followed mostly, and supported (in recent times) has been Button - and I still do. If he's had a sh!t year this year, on top of the other sh!t car-years, can he really be blamed if his head's down?

If Massa hadn't gone to Ferrari do we really think he'd be the same as he is now? I believe Massa is a superb example of how a top team can boost the confidence, skill level and work-rate of a driver, it's not as simple as having 'the best car', it's how a driver raises his game to match it... but the same can be said (of many drivers) in reverse, which is the dilemma Jense is in now. [Kova Lame One is (current, but maybe he'll change?) a good example of someone being given a top car, and still being an end-of-mid-fielder at best].

I'd agree he needs to improve on this year against his team mate (the one that matched Michael on enough occasions to make a damn good point!), but I'd also agree with those that ask if kimi, Hamster, Kubiza, Massa etc etc were buried in a sh!t car for long enough, would they be seen to be as good as they are now? For sure, I'd say kimi and Kube would have gone rallying or skiing instead.....

[mikathegreat2 2]

No way would I pick Davidson to be alongside Button if I were Brawn or Fry. The guy is slower than James May!

[freaky2 1]

JB just needs a decent car. I disagree with you that he was roundly beaten though, they were quite even this year except silverstone when RB was in the right place at the right time & kept it on the road to come 3rd (well done to him).

I think some of you are forgetting the seasons when JB did have a good car ('04 & '06) and how very very good he was at those times. In 2007 he was still on top of Rubens but this season admittedly he's not got that edge and you cant really blame him. In post-race interviews this year he generally seemed downhearted, & it must've affected his performance.

In karting he was labelled 'the new senna' as he easily won all championships he entered. He's a special and natural talent who should've been put in a championship-winning car ages ago. I still feel very strongly that if Honda give him a good car, he will produce the results and will beat Rubens consistently

Tell me about special and natural talent. If you don't put work into that you just end up being a bitter guy who tells himself he didn't have the chance he deserved. He needs a couple of classes from Massa!

[Fed up 0]

Well put Jem, I agree.

Watchers of F1 rarely follow the path of a driver in any detail if they're not a fan of them, so it's easy to jump on the 'he doesn't deserve it, he's washed out' band wagon. The driver I've followed mostly, and supported (in recent times) has been Button - and I still do. If he's had a sh!t year this year, on top of the other sh!t car-years, can he really be blamed if his head's down?

If Massa hadn't gone to Ferrari do we really think he'd be the same as he is now? I believe Massa is a superb example of how a top team can boost the confidence, skill level and work-rate of a driver, it's not as simple as having 'the best car', it's how a driver raises his game to match it... but the same can be said (of many drivers) in reverse, which is the dilemma Jense is in now. [Kova Lame One is (current, but maybe he'll change?) a good example of someone being given a top car, and still being an end-of-mid-fielder at best].

I'd agree he needs to improve on this year against his team mate (the one that matched Michael on enough occasions to make a damn good point!), but I'd also agree with those that ask if kimi, Hamster, Kubiza, Massa etc etc were buried in a sh!t car for long enough, would they be seen to be as good as they are now? For sure, I'd say kimi and Kube would have gone rallying or skiing instead.....

Blind faith I'm afraid.

Like you I too have followed Jenson's career very closely since he first appeared in a Williams way back when.However, I try to give an honest assessment of a driver's ability in a car and take note of important markers in a drivers season and career.

Jenson has forged a reputation as a top driver based on his performances on Michelin tyres. Kimi, Alonso and Kubica were also very strong on Michelins. The difference between the other drivers and Jenson is that they have managed to adapt thier driving style to the Bridgestones - Jense continues to struggle. He was rated as one of the best drivers in the wet, but like Alonso, he is not that good on the Bridgestone wets. When his team mate romped to a podium finish at Silverstone Jense beached the car, on full wets.

I've also followed Massa career and actually met him a couple of times. He is fortunate that his manager is Jean Todt's son and was therefore able to get the Sauber Ferrari drive, Ferrari test driver role and eventually the Ferrari seat. He is deserving nonetheless, but his circumstances and connections have been favourable.

IMHO Jenson is a character that likes a team where he is loved and buttered. I think that is more important to him that competitiveness. It's just my guess, but he really should have put himself about more and tested himself at different teams. Why is he hankering after a Honda drive for example? Why not try to get into the STR or even Force India with their Mclaren backing. I just don't think he has the hunger of an Alonso or a Webber - Signing another contract with Honda will be a waste of time as the team is not going anywhere.

As I've said before I really like the guy, he has a very warm and approachable personality. He is a genuine nice guy, I just wish he had more drive, ambition and hunger.

Only time will tell.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Past it at the age of 28 or 29? Please... don't make me laugh - most drivers do not drive at their peak until early-mid thirties.

All drivers love teams where they are loved or buttered. Thats a given but I still can't believe that a 29 year old is considered as past it. Its a joke!

I don't think the hunger has ever gone away, if anything he has it more than ever. Last season was written off before it even began for Honda. And I'm sure as eggshells are fragile that Honda will be a much improved team than it has been recently.

I fully admit to having blind faith at times. Rose tinted glasses are kind of too small for me. Its either 100% or nothing.

[Kopite Girl 0]

Of Honda's four (JB, RB, TS, AD) you found a way to pick the worst two (did I just win a(nother?) bitchslap?)

Rossiter was pretty fun to watch in ALMS this year and I'd much rather watch him in actual races than fiddling around in a test seat over in Europe. But that's probably something I only agree with myself on.

You would enjoy it too much.

I would love to see Rossiter in a race seat. I think given the chance, he could cut the mustard. So - I do agree with you.

[Medilloni 6]

Blind faith I'm afraid.

Like you I too have followed Jenson's career very closely since he first appeared in a Williams way back when.However, I try to give an honest assessment of a driver's ability in a car and take note of important markers in a drivers season and career.

Jenson has forged a reputation as a top driver based on his performances on Michelin tyres. Kimi, Alonso and Kubica were also very strong on Michelins. The difference between the other drivers and Jenson is that they have managed to adapt thier driving style to the Bridgestones - Jense continues to struggle. He was rated as one of the best drivers in the wet, but like Alonso, he is not that good on the Bridgestone wets. When his team mate romped to a podium finish at Silverstone Jense beached the car, on full wets.

I've also followed Massa career and actually met him a couple of times. He is fortunate that his manager is Jean Todt's son and was therefore able to get the Sauber Ferrari drive, Ferrari test driver role and eventually the Ferrari seat. He is deserving nonetheless, but his circumstances and connections have been favourable.

IMHO Jenson is a character that likes a team where he is loved and buttered. I think that is more important to him that competitiveness. It's just my guess, but he really should have put himself about more and tested himself at different teams. Why is he hankering after a Honda drive for example? Why not try to get into the STR or even Force India with their Mclaren backing. I just don't think he has the hunger of an Alonso or a Webber - Signing another contract with Honda will be a waste of time as the team is not going anywhere.

As I've said before I really like the guy, he has a very warm and approachable personality. He is a genuine nice guy, I just wish he had more drive, ambition and hunger.

Only time will tell.

If time has anything to do with it, then my faith has time to be justified

Seriously though, I agree with some of what you have to say Fed Up - Massa etc. Though the bit about tyres, the wets etc I'd politely suggest is your take, your observation - I'd disagree on such detail, but only because the Michellin/Bridgestone comparison is a bit old now, and mixed with the car he's driving, I'd say it's incredibly hard to tell where the fault lies, I'd suspect it's more to do with the cars characteristics rather than the tyres. But only my take too, none of us can know

Part of my point (probably worded badly!....) is how events can unfold, as they did for Massa - acting as a springboard for his career at the right time, with the reverse being true for some other drivers - and how that can affect the performance of a driver for many reasons. But there's nothing new there, history is littered with similar stories.

As things are right now, would I rate Jens up there with Alonso, Hamilton et al? I'm not sure, argh, truthfully no. But given the sniff of a great car, I'd say he was capable of rising to the the challenge as most others have in the same situation. But no, he doesn't have long, and along with Nico, Webber and a couple of others he's close to watching his career go down the pan - again, through not being in a top team at the right time.

Call me an old softy, but I want him to have a couple or three years at the top, so he will

[Fed up 0]

Past it at the age of 28 or 29? Please... don't make me laugh - most drivers do not drive at their peak until early-mid thirties.

He's past it because he is due to sign another contract at Honda that will take him into his 30's. Alonso was right when he said that it is nigh on impossible for a team back marking in one season to then challenge at the front the following season....it just doesn't happen. The question then is why does Jenson want to stay at Honda? If Senna replaces Ruebens and is roundly beaten by jens what does that tell us? Have Honda moved forward? is Jens back to his best? it doesn't tell us anything because the team mate that owned him has made way for a rookie. If Senna beats him, where does that leave his reputation.

He should be trying to get into a team like STR or Force India. Both teams have connections to the front running teams so if he excels there he would have a good chance of getting a Ferrari or Mclaren seat.

Being a fan is great and loyalty is to be commended, just try to be honest in your assessment no matter how sad it makes you feel.

Just my view

[Kopite Girl 0]

You're view is much respected - to surprise you

However, I am being honest. Don't you think that once in a STR seat or FI, he'd become 'the forgotten man', because I do. He's not old enough to be put out to pasture just yet.

I can't compare drivers, as I believe that all drivers have a different 'talent'. But its as almost as if the team themselves are being written off. They are still a relatively young organisation themselves, having made the split from BAR a couple of years back.

Its just the fact that when people say 'he's past it' really p**ses me off, when he's not even started yet. But I know you like the guy. I do respect what you have to say.

[The Burro 0]

Button's not past it. He is not as good as he used to be, but he's not past it. He can get it back. It's just kind of hard for him to have any faith in himself when all anyone ever does is say "oh Button's past it" and the Honda sucks and James Allen is no longer having a sexual relationship with him. He'll get it again, it'll just take some time. And he's re-signing with Honda because I'm not sure anyone better is going to sign him. Honda has a budget, they have KERS, and they have Brawn. They could be on the up, and I'm sure a couple of these teams aren't looking so steady right now with the 2010 regs and the economy and all that fun stuff. I have faith in Button and I'm wearing my contact lenses, so it isn't exactly "blind."

You would enjoy it too much.

I would love to see Rossiter in a race seat. I think given the chance, he could cut the mustard. So - I do agree with you.

The Burro is not available for comment in regards to the above

Yeah, not sure why he isn't in GP2...

[Fed up 0]

This eloquent post sums it up for me

For one thing, I actually quite like his easy going and relaxed demeanour away from the c#ckpit. Unlike a lot of other drivers, he seems very comfortable in his own skin.

For another, I tend to find that, in the great Button debate, the intellectual dishonesty is on the side of his apologists. For example, you persist with the "he's just demotivated" excuse, even though there's absolutely no evidence to back it up. And even if there were, what kind of excuse is that? He's being paid millions of dollars a year to drive cars the like of which you and I could only dream, for goodness' sakes. If he can't give of his best under those circumstances then what does that say about his character and work ethic?

Do you genuinely think he's not producing the best qualifying times and race performances of which he's capable? Surely Brawn would not be about to renew if that were the case? Or is that just a more palatable fig leaf than the much likelier explanation that he's not actually that good?

You failed to address my earlier point about Button's performances relative to journeymen Ralf, Fisi, and Trulli (you'll recall he was beaten handily - and in one case absolutely thrashed - by all three). Was he also "demotivated" when he was up against those world beaters? Or is his performance against them something you prefer to ignore because it would suggest this season's performance relative to Rubens is broadly in line with what we know he can do?

When you consider Jensen's performances against Ralf, Trulli, Fisi and Rubens, it becomes impossible for anyone looking at this without bias or special pleading to not conclude that he is just average. He doesn't suck, he's shown flashes of speed and consistency here and there, but he has nothing to trouble the best in the sport.

This idea that when the car is better he will suddenly show he's on par with Kimi/Alonso/Lewis is so much pie in the sky. The truth is that the car is very rarely perfect, you're constantly having to drive around problems. If you're waiting for someone to magically solve all the issues before you can show what you're made of then you'll end up waiting for ever - or rather, until the team loses patience and hands you your P45.

You have every right to disagree, but it involves tying yourself into knots, holding on like a barnacle to a handful of performances from several seasons ago while attempting to ignore the unspoken objection: "this guy was been beaten handily over the course of a season by Ralf, Trulli, Fisi and Rubens, and you're telling me he's something special?"

It amuses me when Button fans and fans of Webber and Heidfeld go on and on about the drives their favourites "deserve", as if the team bosses are playing favourites and are not picking certain drivers for non-sporting reasons. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but these guys generally put in those they think will get the results. If your guy is not in a competitive car or hasn't been offered one recently, rest assured it's because the guys at the front running teams aren't interested. If you had any idea of the amount of driver performance data these guys have, from testing, qualifying, races and simulators, you would be astounded. They have super computers crunching this data and combine this with their own judgement to generate a pretty good and accurate idea of the pecking order of drivers in the sport.

Button is not even close to being considered an elite driver at this point in his career. If he doesn't raise his game next season may well be his last in F1. In addition to being expensive and not a good car developer, he is likely slower than a number of the talented youngsters that will be knocking on the door over the next couple of seasons.

[Max Mosley 2]

That is a good post. I'd like to know who wrote it.

[monza gorilla 1]

Ditto.

[Medilloni 6]

That is a good post. I'd like to know who wrote it.

It is a good post and there's plenty of sound comments in it. The OP makes some good points about driver motivation, for example:

...........For another, I tend to find that, in the great Button debate, the intellectual dishonesty is on the side of his apologists. For example, you persist with the "he's just demotivated" excuse, even though there's absolutely no evidence to back it up. And even if there were, what kind of excuse is that? He's being paid millions of dollars a year to drive cars the like of which you and I could only dream, for goodness' sakes. If he can't give of his best under those circumstances then what does that say about his character and work ethic?.......

.........which is completely reasonable, but to say, or infer it's purely Button with that probelm, it's simply not true that the majority of drivers can produce their best when they feel the car or the team isn't able to let him shine - whether right or wrong it's still a fundamental psychological issue for drivers(and us too!), for example, isn't this a similar problem?:

Speaking with MTV3 Raikkonen said: "When there are no opportunities to overtake or to improve your position it is definitely not very interesting. But that is the way it is. When you know you're fighting for just P3 you simply don't always have the same speed for the whole race as you would normally have." http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/11/14/...ation-problems/

OK, the press, and they could have made more of what Kimi had to say, but the guy is in one of the top two teams with a 1 in 4 chance of taking the title, with a handful of races where he couldn't fight for the lead, not several seasons, so what if he was in a Forced India or Honda?

Button's supporters are exactly the same as supporters of other drivers, they see what they want to see, what they want to see is what their favourite driver has that they identify with more than the others. Do they make excuses? Of course they do! Doesn't Fed Up get defensive when Hamster's being slagged off? I think so, and understandably - for a fan of anything or anyone to be confronted with someone that calls your choice crap, they are questioning your judgement.

Anyway, I'm a fan of F1 before any driver, and I think I know what I'm trying to say, but my fish 'n chips are here.

[pabloh20 1]

That is a good post. I'd like to know who wrote it.

Well, whoever it was, didn't actually get their facts right regarding getting beaten by team mates

[Max Mosley 2]

Facts are for pedants. Great minds needn't be troubled by them. Even Einstein said so.

[Medilloni 6]

Facts are for pedants. Great minds needn't be troubled by them. Even Einstein said so.

Is that a fact?

[Fed up 0]

Well, whoever it was, didn't actually get their facts right regarding getting beaten by team mates

Trulli?

On points but not performance.

Laps raced in podium position, Trulli 38 laps, Button 28 laps

Laps raced in the top 5, Trulli 244 laps, Button 187 laps

Laps raced in the top 8, Trulli 645 laps, Button 546 laps

This is the evidence to show why Trulli was chosen over Button.

Here's the thread for those that are interested

Overhyped

[shampion 0]

with slicks in the mix...

Bring back J.V.???

[Max Mosley 2]

Is that a fact?

Pedant.

Overhyped

Cheers. Quite a few good posts there - but it doesn't have the intimacy or humour of this place.