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Oli

Honda Rescued!

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I disagree - The world has gone soft. An often used phrase these days is;

"It's not about the winning, it's about the taking part"

B@llocks! :lol:

It's about winning period! Survival of the fittest and all that - you compete or you die. HondaF1 is dead because they couldn't compete. For them to now be replaced with a re-hash of the same will only result the same - death!

Brawn is lauded as the messiah - fail!

At Ferrari he had Todt, Schumacher, Rory, Luca, the Engine guy (the name escapes me) and a team focused on winning. At Honda he has fry and Button - whoopee :lol:

I'm sorry, the re-hashed honda will be a waste of time as a prospective buyer is effectively buying the assets of a failed team. The whole orgainsation wreaks of failure - why should an investor bother? If Honda spent

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I'd rather have a bunch of crappy teams at the back than a diminished grid (the F1 grid was already too small with 22 cars).

I'd rather the front runners ran a 3rd car than an underfunded cluless team at the back.

You know, I watch sport to feel good not to get depressed. I focus on the winners, not the losers. I accept not everyone can be a winner, but why waste energy on a team of highly paid indivduals that get paid

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I certainly don't want another team cruising around the grid with no hope of improving. Taking my passionate idealism and putting it aside in favor of realism, the chances of the Honda team becoming anything other than filler is slim at best. My attitude is 'if we cannot see a David Richards take the helm then let them die'.

Brawn is no ubermench. A team's success is built upon a solid foundation of organization, talent, and leadership...something Ferrari had at all levels and Honda does not. Having one competent man in charge of a ship crewed by bartenders will only float, at best.

I am a passionate fan of the sport which is why I adhere to the very core principles of Formula 1: The best win and the rest strive to win or fail. I don't wish for Honda's demise, per se, but contenting ourselves with grid 'fillers' with no hope of improving is hardly racing.

So you're hoping for a glorious moment from Honda? I was completely in support of Super Aguri because they were small but had a very focused, talented, organized team that took a year's old tub and went racing with it...achieving some truly glorious moments. Can you envision Honda doing the same thing? I can't. I don't wish for Honda's demise, but I don't give a rat's bald arse if they go away. Aguri I mourned for, Honda I'll shrug over.

How can you mourn the loss of Aguri? Surely, by your benchmark they were just another 'grid filler' weren't they? Are you sure you don't want a US Marine General to take over at Brackley and kick some butt or would you rather transport the whole operation to Fort Bragg? Before you can possibly understand how Honda failed in F1 you must grasp how they failed to intergrate the working practices of two comprehensively opposite cultures. It had nothing to do with the race team, rather the people who employed them.

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How can you mourn the loss of Aguri? Surely, by your benchmark they were just another 'grid filler' weren't they?

No!

They were punching above their weight and proving that a small team of clever and motivated individuals could match their illustrious and wealthy benefactor. Sato overtaking Alonso is an endearing image that will live for many a day.

The difference is that one was overachieving the other underachieving.

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I'd rather the front runners ran a 3rd car than an underfunded cluless team at the back.

You know, I watch sport to feel good not to get depressed. I focus on the winners, not the losers. I accept not everyone can be a winner, but why waste energy on a team of highly paid indivduals that get paid

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No!

They were punching above their weight and proving that a small team of clever and motivated individuals could match their illustrious and wealthy benefactor. Sato overtaking Alonso is an endearing image that will live for many a day.

The difference is that one was overachieving the other underachieving.

What were Jordan doing all those years then - or Sauber? Were they clueless too?

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But without Honda then there would have been no Super Aguri.
How can you mourn the loss of Aguri? Surely, by your benchmark they were just another 'grid filler' weren't they? Are you sure you don't want a US Marine General to take over at Brackley and kick some butt or would you rather transport the whole operation to Fort Bragg? Before you can possibly understand how Honda failed in F1 you must grasp how they failed to intergrate the working practices of two comprehensively opposite cultures. It had nothing to do with the race team, rather the people who employed them.
No!

They were punching above their weight and proving that a small team of clever and motivated individuals could match their illustrious and wealthy benefactor. Sato overtaking Alonso is an endearing image that will live for many a day.

The difference is that one was overachieving the other underachieving.

Indeed.

What were Jordan doing all those years then - or Sauber? They had decent budgets and drivers.

Jordan was in contention for a title not so long ago. When they stopped being a racing team and became a training ground for pay drivers I stopped caring. Williams is fast approaching this, btw. Now Sauber, like the later incarnations of Jordan, I couldn't care less about until BMW stepped in and gave the team direction and better organization. To clarify, I don't want teams that are content to cruise around the grid or are too incompetent to show a glimmer of brilliance. That is a truer view of racing than some posts I've seen in this thread. The intent is the passion, the result will show that passion.

I don't know if Brawn can turn Honda around, but if he can get them to act like they're competing instead of cruising around then I'll support that passion and effort. I suspect he can't and I really don't see the high hopes that some here have placed on Honda (F1).

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There were races or atleast a race when SA didn't really know if they were allowed to race or not until few hours before qualifying. Yet they managed to get their in qualifying and race. SA was a little team with so much passion, there was some joy watching these guys perform so well, there was some hope that a small team could do very well, even though they used the Honda's customer car package, but Honda were always supposed to be better than them anyways! Anyways one must also remember that in 2006, they used the 2002 Chassis from Arrows and yet Finish (Sato) their first race with only ten laps of pre-season testing, later lots of updates followed in and even managing to out perform Midlands who were supposed to have better chassis. That was achivement, Funny to think..how the way Honda humiliated SA by blocking their truck entering Istanbul Paddock and was shown the door, the very door through which Honda had walk out later on.

I bet Mr.Aguri is still giggling.

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I'd rather have a bunch of crappy teams at the back than a diminished grid (the F1 grid was already too small with 22 cars).

I agree with you George.

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I'd rather the front runners ran a 3rd car than an underfunded cluless team at the back.

I would too.

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I'd rather the front runners ran a 3rd car than an underfunded cluless team at the back.

I agree with this one too! :D

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I'd rather have a bunch of crappy teams at the back than a diminished grid (the F1 grid was already too small with 22 cars).

I'd rather have teams that have a passion for racing than just cruising for the TV revenues.

I'd rather the front runners ran a 3rd car than an underfunded cluless team at the back.

I'd rather have teams that have a passion for racing than just cruising for the TV revenues.

(I agree with 99.9% of what you two have to say in this thread, except for the quoted bits)

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Only in the end they recalled that all they had to do is get someone like Brawn.

So, in your eyes, Honda were damned if they did stick to their original ethic and damned if they didn't?

I disagree - The world has gone soft. An often used phrase these days is;

"It's not about the winning, it's about the taking part"

B@llocks! :lol:

It's about winning period! Survival of the fittest and all that - you compete or you die. HondaF1 is dead because they couldn't compete. For them to now be replaced with a re-hash of the same will only result the same - death!

Brawn is lauded as the messiah - fail!

At Ferrari he had Todt, Schumacher, Rory, Luca, the Engine guy (the name escapes me) and a team focused on winning. At Honda he has fry and Button - whoopee :lol:

I'm sorry, the re-hashed honda will be a waste of time as a prospective buyer is effectively buying the assets of a failed team. The whole orgainsation wreaks of failure - why should an investor bother? If Honda spent

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I don't think there is currently, a single team in F1 who are just content to take part and share the meagre scraps that fall from Bernie's table - they all have the passion to win. Whether they are capable of it, is another thing. The fact that they are all striving to achieve parity is the key factor in my book. Indeed, Force India have made a major commitment, through their tie-up with McLaren to be competitive in 2009 and not two seconds slower than the rest of the field. Everyone entering the arena nowadays knows what the parameters are in terms of performance and what is expected - the days of Minardi are gone. Having said that, they were no less passionate, in all their configurations than anyone else in the field. I believe there will barely be a second or less seperating the entire field this year with some teams at the top going backwards and a few at the back coming forward.

Autumnpuma's ranting about Honda is irrelevant now - they don't exist - period. They mutilated the prize that was BAR, through a failure to properly integrate two workforces, [as Toyota have achieved with moderate success] along with poor judgement in their choice of people to run the team and a general arrogance that was only surpassed by their ignorance of the business they were investing in. Their behaviour with regard to Super Aguri was poor, to say the least but it underlines their shabby and indecisive management style. SA showed what can be done with 'last year's model' as STR did this past season. That said, you need a decent 'hand me down' to start with, surely.

Race budgets will shrink to 30% of their current size over the next two or three years - I have no doubt about it. But, I really don't think it will bring more teams into the sport, to be honest - world markets are still far too volatile. However, teams' spending is bound to mushroom again as they realise there are twenty cars in the field, all within two tenths of each other!

I think it's dangerous to judge a man like Ross Brawn when you clearly don't know him or what he is capable of - you may have to eat your words and possible something even more distasteful. He inherited a pile of junk a year ago and yet has, I am reliably informed, managed to produce a raceble car while bullets were flying all around. He then had the rug pulled out from under him by the same inscrutible people who promised him a bottomless pit of cash and all the time he would need to bring their wishes to fruition. The fact that he is still there and has not run for the hills says a great deal about a great man, for me.

I do think it's interesting to note that no one stood up and bought or re-funded SA yet 21 or more people have taken a serious interest in the former Honda team. Maybe sound business sense comes a long way ahead of passion. Unfortunately, cash is the underlying problem of all F1's woes. That, and the autocratic regime under which it runs. You have to feed the 'monster' and that's why anyone can squeeze their way on to the grid and we end up with idiotic venues like Valencia. Fortunately, I believe it will be a long time before new teams appear and by then, many of Bernie's new stadia will have become windswept monuments to his greed-driven folly. I passionately believe, that FOMA should insist on a stringent set of ground rules for entry and that Bernie and Max must go. Either that, or break away completely - if Ferrari can handle the lack of 'payola', that is. Only then, can we really go racing in this 21st Century.

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Ah well, another one bites the dust or does it? Will Brackley issue a denial too? I feel so sorry for the staff at Brackley having to hear all these stories while they figure out how to pay their mortgages etc.

Michael Schumacher's press spokeswoman has played down reports the retired seven time world champion might get involved in the rescue of the embattled Honda Racing F1 team.

It was suggested the 40-year-old could have been in talks with his former Ferrari colleague Ross Brawn, now the Brackley based team's boss, about investing some of his own money in the wake of Honda's decision to withdraw from the sport.

But on the German language portal motorsport-total.com, Schumacher's representative Sabine Kehm rubbished the rumour.

Basically, what Sabine said, was that it was true that MS and RB were still good friends but that Michael's involvement with Honda was limited to the German Superbike Series. That hardly 'rubbishes' the rumour nor denies it. Nevertheless, MS clearly believed something had to be said about the matter, a fact which, intrigues me even more.

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So you're hoping for a glorious moment from Honda?

Err, no. Someone mentioned Minardi, that's all, and it reminded me that they weren't always as bad as people seem to remember.

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Minardi was crap, no doubt about it. But it also had its fame. It was some kind of admission test. If you could do something half decent on a Minardi, then you certainly had skills to play with the big toys.

Alonso, Trulli, Fisichella, Verstappen, Gene, Webber, Davidson, Tuero :whistling: , Mazzacane :whistling:

All those started at Minardi. It was a better measure of their talents than their pre F1 career.

In that sense, Minardi played a major role in F1.

@Drib: No. It's not damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's more of "why didn't you do it when it mattered?" I am pointing a mistake, not condemning them. They condemned themselves.

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brawn-valencia-z-02_240808.jpg

loupe.gif Zoom

Brawn knocking on familiar doors

Honda team boss Ross Brawn has confirmed he is in talks with his former employer Ferrari about securing a customer engine supply for 2009.

The Briton told La Gazzetta dello Sport that he and colleague Nick Fry are also speaking with multiple potential buyers of the Brackley-based team.

"Honda has already said it will not supply us with engines, so that's why I contacted Ferrari," said Brawn, who was the Maranello team's technical director until 2006.

"We haven't signed anything yet but I really appreciated the support from President Luca di Montezemolo and Stefano Domenicali. It's like being among former schoolmates: they still see me as one of their own."

Brawn said his priority is to safeguard the jobs of Honda Racing F1's staff, rather than protecting his own position or selling to the highest bidder.

When asked how many parties the team is speaking to, he answered: "I can only say it's more than one. The objective is to save the jobs (...) my presence is certainly not a priority.

He said the team was unlikely to return to the test tracks prior to the start of the season, but that he is "really optimistic" about the chances of survival.

"There's no hurry because modifying the car to install a different engine requires at least six weeks of work anyway. It's unlikely we'll manage to be on track during the winter."

"That's why we are studying a package of evolutions for 2010, when we aim to step up the ladder. Next year will remain for us a transitional one," Brawn said.

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No!

They were punching above their weight and proving that a small team of clever and motivated individuals could match their illustrious and wealthy benefactor. Sato overtaking Alonso is an endearing image that will live for many a day.

The difference is that one was overachieving the other underachieving.

You know, I watch sport to feel good not to get depressed. I focus on the winners, not the losers. I accept not everyone can be a winner, but why waste energy on a team of highly paid indivduals that get paid

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.................................... The objective is to save the jobs (...) my presence is certainly not a priority. [/color]

I wonder if there's something in there that means he's off back to Ferrari once they've found a buyer.

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I wonder if there's something in there that means he's off back to Ferrari once they've found a buyer.

Good substitute for Force India. I wonder if Ferrari gets a peek into their KERS! :D

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I haven't replied to you for any particular reason Fed Up, except for the fact that we have something in common; your income is dependent on your ability to sell, as mine is too (and wouldn't have it any other way ;) ). Which brings me to the general theme in the last page or so, and our friend Pareto's Law, the law that can be applied to yours and my success or failure is applicable to so many other walks of life, one of them being sport, F1 is almost a perfect example of it, and always has been. It will always be too, even with 3 cars per team there will always be more drivers not on the podium!, drivers a second away from the front - 60 seconds away by the chequered flag.

F1 needs people (teams) that are not capable of winning yet, but are there to strive to win, to gain positions, to improve against their particular bench mark, to reap the higher rewards, to spend the higher budget this gives, then to turn the budget into being a contender.... and so on. So not everyone can be there in a position to win, but they are all there to climb the grid - talk of teams that 'are just content to cruise' is bonkers, yes, they may be stupid (Honda, and Toyota imo), and this keeps them from being contenders, but no-one is there to cruise!

SA: They were losers from day one. They were losers because as much as their racing 'heart' was truly admirable, those responsible for producing income were not up to the job, they were incapable of raising the money required to run the team - and I mean just to run it, not improve it. That, by definition makes them a losing team, very poor grid fillers (compared to, for example, Williams), because F1 is about getting everything as right as it's possible to be, by not achieving a budget to run it is the biggest single fcuk up a team can make.

SA did punch over their weight at the track (and I was sad to see them go too), and I agree Honda were disgraceful - I mean specifically the p**s poor decision making processes and Japanese 'face saving' that has always stood in the way of their success, NOT the individuals within the team at brackley now.

My whole point of posting in this thread is purely connected with that - the possibility that something good can come out of the disaster of corporate confusion and under-achievement for these people is exciting, and whilst Brawn et al might fail, I believe we're seeing the kind of passion most fans of the sport like to see - they're not giving up! Even calling them Honda now is strange, Honda pulled the rug, these poor sods are working under the hardest possible conditions. I find that extremely admirable, and I want to support it because in my soft head I've always believed the most meaningful successes come from the overcoming the biggest hurdles.

Vive Le Team Brackley :P

Good post there Meds. :clap3:

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Good substitute for Force India. I wonder if Ferrari gets a peek into ther KERS! :D

I'd guess (if the engine deal is as strong as it seems) that's a definate Abbas.

Good post there Meds

Damn, I didn't think you'd agree with me Fed Up ;)

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I'd rather have teams that have a passion for racing than just cruising for the TV revenues.

I'd rather have teams that have a passion for racing than just cruising for the TV revenues.

(I agree with 99.9% of what you two have to say in this thread, except for the quoted bits)

Well I don't think there are teams that enter F1 to cruise for TV revenue, it wouldn't make any financial sense for a start. Just because a team like Honda is sucking badly, doesn't mean they don't have passionate people there, who have racing in their blood, who cheer when one of their cars makes an overtake or somehow manages a podium. I wouldn't let the fact that Honda were poorly managed blur the truth of their racing spirit, and I think that goes for most other struggling teams.

Good post there Meds. :clap3:

It was indeed.

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