The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 No surprise about the presumed no Schumacher story. Brawn seems to be saying the right things and a Ferrari engine deal does seem viable, although would they want to supply three teams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 @Drib: No. It's not damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's more of "why didn't you do it when it mattered?" I am pointing a mistake, not condemning them. They condemned themselves. Well, I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing. At least they were open minded enough to let Brawn in. I haven't replied to you for any particular reason Fed Up, except for the fact that we have something in common; your income is dependent on your ability to sell, as mine is too (and wouldn't have it any other way ). Which brings me to the general theme in the last page or so, and our friend Pareto's Law, the law that can be applied to yours and my success or failure is applicable to so many other walks of life, one of them being sport, F1 is almost a perfect example of it, and always has been. It will always be too, even with 3 cars per team there will always be more drivers not on the podium!, drivers a second away from the front - 60 seconds away by the chequered flag.F1 needs people (teams) that are not capable of winning yet, but are there to strive to win, to gain positions, to improve against their particular bench mark, to reap the higher rewards, to spend the higher budget this gives, then to turn the budget into being a contender.... and so on. So not everyone can be there in a position to win, but they are all there to climb the grid - talk of teams that 'are just content to cruise' is bonkers, yes, they may be stupid (Honda, and Toyota imo), and this keeps them from being contenders, but no-one is there to cruise! SA: They were losers from day one. They were losers because as much as their racing 'heart' was truly admirable, those responsible for producing income were not up to the job, they were incapable of raising the money required to run the team - and I mean just to run it, not improve it. That, by definition makes them a losing team, very poor grid fillers (compared to, for example, Williams), because F1 is about getting everything as right as it's possible to be, by not achieving a budget to run it is the biggest single fcuk up a team can make. SA did punch over their weight at the track (and I was sad to see them go too), and I agree Honda were disgraceful - I mean specifically the p**s poor decision making processes and Japanese 'face saving' that has always stood in the way of their success, NOT the individuals within the team at brackley now. My whole point of posting in this thread is purely connected with that - the possibility that something good can come out of the disaster of corporate confusion and under-achievement for these people is exciting, and whilst Brawn et al might fail, I believe we're seeing the kind of passion most fans of the sport like to see - they're not giving up! Even calling them Honda now is strange, Honda pulled the rug, these poor sods are working under the hardest possible conditions. I find that extremely admirable, and I want to support it because in my soft head I've always believed the most meaningful successes come from the overcoming the biggest hurdles. Vive Le Team Brackley Nice. I enjoyed that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 I know it's an old story now. At least one hunch seems to have panned out: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news...106144851.shtml Thought I might be losing my touch! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Good substitute for Force India. I wonder if Ferrari gets a peek into their KERS! I did suggest they might. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jean Todt 4 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 I did suggest they might. Sorry I didn't read that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Sorry I didn't read that! I do tend to post a lot! From RealHondaF1.com The much respected Joe Seward at GrandPrix.com is reporting that Michael Schumacher has been in serious talks regarding purchasing the Honda Racing F1 team. As unlikely as it seems, the German has apparently been speaking at length with Ross Brawn about a possible partnership to save the Brackley team. Whilst Schumacher is particularly well funded thanks to his generous Ferrari salary, seven world championship titles and countless endorsement deals, it's doubtful that he would wish to risk the millions required to run a team competitively. However, his name carries a lot of weight, and may well attract the commercial backing required to fund the team, despite the current economic climate. Any purchase of the team and it's many assets would be relatively cheap, although running costs would be high. Any investment in the team could be a wise move financially, despite the obvious risks. With Honda's 2009 car apparently being capable of taking race wins, according to early data, and the assets being available at a bargain price, it's conceivable that the teams value could increase rapidly, something the 4 or 5 serious bidders would be well aware of. Any Schumacher involvement in the team is just speculation at this stage, but stranger things have happened. I believe this makes more sense than anything else I have heard so far and could lead to MS becoming involved as the team's new MD/CEO/Principal and co-owner with most of the operating costs coming from a raft of sponsors brought in by Michael. His refusal of Honda's bike ride appears extremely timely, in the light of this current rumour. Ferrari have rubbished KERS because they can't make it work. Ross has it nailed, I am reliably informed and a swop deal with the Scuderia for power trains may well be in the offing. It also seems uncanny to me that Ferrari should have announced they are to sit down with MS to discuss his future recently. It's way out of left field but by God, it fits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Does anyone else think it's odd that Ross Brawn didn't deny the Schumi to Brackley story when he made the announcement about Ferrari engines today? Are the Brackley squad about to become a Ferrari joint venture with MS? Another transitional year - are you kidding? Obviously not. What else could they do? They clearly have a plan in place and they will be on the grid in Melbourne - it's a cert, I'd say - reading between the lines. However, What about JB? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Not really. It's like in football. You wouldn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Medilloni 6 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Does anyone else think it's odd that Ross Brawn didn't deny the Schumi to Brackley story when he made the announcement about Ferrari engines today? Are the Brackley squad about to become a Ferrari joint venture with MS? Another transitional year - are you kidding? Obviously not. What else could they do? They clearly have a plan in place and they will be on the grid in Melbourne - it's a cert, I'd say - reading between the lines. However, What about JB? They will be on the grid in Melbourne, agreed. As for JB, I wonder if he might have to return some of the dosh he's been paid - and surely his contract won't be valid with new owners (unless it was a Hnda stipulation)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Not really.It's like in football. You wouldn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 I'd say JB will be in the seat. Who else would you hire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 I'd say JB will be in the seat.Who else would you hire. I wouldn't hire anyone else. That said, who'd put up with another transitional season anyway? This a much better story on the Ferrari engine talks. It's from Reuters. http://in.reuters.com/article/formulaOneNe...=formulaOneNews Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Ferrari readily supply customer engines anyway. Even if Brawn wasn;t at Honda, they would be the natural choice. At every opportunity people want to tie Michael Schumacher in with something. Michael is out. If he wanted in, he would still be in. Nothing will come of these rumours. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Got to agree on that. He's said as much himself. Today, I was reading an old story suggesting he wanted to get VW involved and set up his own team. Don Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Ferrari readily supply customer engines anyway. Even if Brawn wasn;t at Honda, they would be the natural choice. At every opportunity people want to tie Michael Schumacher in with something. Michael is out. If he wanted in, he would still be in. Nothing will come of these rumours. May I quote you? Oh!, I just did! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Ugh. This thread has become too large to respond to! It's like fighting a Hydra...so many of you have made statements I'd like to comment on, but those comments would take us further away from the question I originally asked. I will reply to a few things stated, tho... @Steve: Scroll through your comments on this thread. I'm not the only one that's prone to romanticism when talking about a sport we both love. Passion *does* show a result, and one that is easy to spot if a person cares to. Minardi had passion, as did a large number of past teams. If the Honda team pull a car together and struggle to be on the grid, that will prove their passion to me. Working for a goal in a time of great struggle and loss proves passion. Desire is simply working hard towards a goal. Passion is laying it all on the line for that goal. @Insider: While I like the word 'rant' when applied correctly, I dislike it being used as a tool to diminish my honest opinions and observations. Tell you what, I'll accept at face value the totally unprovable claim of yours to be an 'insider' if you will recognize that I mean you no malice and have tried quite hard to keep my comments civil. Now about your comment concerning SA and why they had no buyers while Honda are being considered by a few parties: SA's strength was in their personnel. Honda's is in the team infrastructure. The smart team buyer would buy Honda for the infrastructure and then hire the SA personnel (for example's sake). Now for a bit of a 're-set'. My original question was this: Why mourn for the loss of the Honda F1 team? My observation on the team as a whole is that they couldn't pull themselves together after Richards left, even with the massive Honda corporation behind them, so why expect them to do any better with less cash and resources? I've heard everyone's response to this and agree with quite alot of them (particularly swaying is Insider's post that the team suffered from a bit of culture clash). If Honda become a team existing just to cash a check (which, to those that made a few comments about this, is a big draw to non-carmakers....there's alot of money to be made by running an F1 team), I don't care if they die. Deep down I don't think alot of you would disagree with that. Now, if they demonstrate that they truly have a passion (separate from desire) then I'll cheer for them. It's a simple as that for me. Am I for the manufacturers owning teams and pushing out the privateers? No. I'm for an open, non-franchise racing series where you must actually qualify for each race to line up on the grid...whomever you happen to be. Am I against Honda because the CEO slept with my wife and ran over my kids with an Accord? Maybe, but that's another story. On this topic I give no distinction to Honda for being Honda, one way or the other, except to point out their massive resources and brilliant engineers (who all failed to produce a competitive car). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Personally I'm surprised this thread has attracted so much interest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Personally I'm surprised this thread has attracted so much interest. Personally, I'm just enjoying the fact that Mike is back, in full force. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dribbler 6 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 My original question was this: Why mourn for the loss of the Honda F1 team? Because above all, I'm an insecure guy, I love the sport and it sets a dangerous and worrying precedent. I can't disagree with what you have said in your damning appraisal but Medilloni put it beautifully (in this thread, I think, if not, it's here somewhere. Sorry, a really nice '05 Reserva Chainti is doing its thing) too. Damn it, I love you all. And Honda. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Rumble Strip 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Agreed. It's not Honda as such. I'd feel the same about Toyota or Ferrari. It's the sport I worry about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Medilloni 6 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Personally, I'm just enjoying the fact that Mike is back, in full force. Ditto indeedy. Though I hate the way he makes so much sense Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Insider 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 @Insider: While I like the word 'rant' when applied correctly, I dislike it being used as a tool to diminish my honest opinions and observations. Tell you what, I'll accept at face value the totally unprovable claim of yours to be an 'insider' if you will recognize that I mean you no malice and have tried quite hard to keep my comments civil. Now about your comment concerning SA and why they had no buyers while Honda are being considered by a few parties: SA's strength was in their personnel. Honda's is in the team infrastructure. The smart team buyer would buy Honda for the infrastructure and then hire the SA personnel (for example's sake). I have never claimed to be an 'Insider' - I just happened to work in the business for a while and am still in touch with some of my erstwhile contemporaries. It's all in my profile. Examine and probe as you wish. I play rock 'n roll for a living now - what's your excuse for being so condescending and arrogant? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 I have never claimed to be an 'Insider' - I just happened to work in the business for a while and am still in touch with some of my erstwhile contemporaries. It's all in my profile. Examine and probe as you wish. I play rock 'n roll for a living now - what's your excuse for being so condescending and arrogant? EDIT: Ok, I've read your profile and I'll respond in a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Max Mosley 2 Report post Posted January 7, 2009 I have never claimed to be an 'Insider' - I just happened to work in the business for a while and am still in touch with some of my erstwhile contemporaries. It's all in my profile. Examine and probe as you wish. I play rock 'n roll for a living now - what's your excuse for being so condescending and arrogant? Yes, as far as I know, you're the only person so far to bother writing anything in his profile! Well worth a look. I'm still in the Christmas spirit of peace to all men, so I sincerely hope by now you've recovered from the shame of going to Oxford. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Autumnpuma 0 Report post Posted January 7, 2009 Alright, Insider, I went over my posts and, though I'm known to wax arrogant from time to time, I just don't see it in this thread. I've ventured a different opinion on a few points, but that's what a forum is all about. As a matter of fact, I've been, at least three times, shoe-horned into opinions I never expressed (elitist crap, anyone?) just to trigger a true 'rant' against what I was imagined to have said! I was quite clear in my stance regarding the Honda F1 team and, for all your Oxford education, I would expect you to realize an opposing opinion to yours is not 'arrogance'. If anything, what you're getting from me is the immense confidence I have when discussing F1. As to your profile, Insider, I commend you on achieving what you have so far in life, however none of that makes your opinions here sacrosanct (notice I said 'opinions'...I have no problem with the facts you've presented). You've said that you've never claimed to be an 'insider' yet you choose that very term as your screen name here and you, in this very thread, repeatedly cite your 'sources'. Then you take the time to write a profile that would make many of us here wish we could write (me included, truth to tell) but it smacks to me, just a bit, of a narcissistic, 'big-fish-in-a-small-pond' attitude from you. The sense I have of this is heightened by you flinging that profile out when your opinions aren't being agreed with. Look, you're an asset to this forum and whatever insider information you provide is very interesting to the rest of us, and I'd like to think you landed here because you like us and want a good place to chat F1. If that's the case, welcome aboard. EDIT: I was a bit p!ssed when I wrote this and later took out something that seemed a bit harsh... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
