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maure

Pre-season Testing

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Maure, if the car didn't suit Kimi enough, then surely it was his fault as well...

He could have (as he did towards the end of the season) worked his A## off with his engineers and make some changes.

And as Abbas pointed out, he made a few serious driver errors that pushed him aside in the title chase.(Spa, Singapore etc). Being quick is not enough and perhaps work ethic is something Kimi has to work on.

Noone said Kimi was perfect. He doesn't need to be. Talking about errors and work ethic to charge Kimi with engineering duties is... absurd. How about those drivers that are not perfect either (all of them, btw) yet have full support from their teams no matter how they perform?

Kimi's biggest problem was qualifying well. It compromissed a number of his races. Since fast laps are not one of Kimi's handicaps, the problems is elsewhere.

P.s. I make these comments being an outsider, just like you. We don't really know what really happened during the season. The suggestion that Schumi knew FM's and Kimi's driving style so well in order to propose some changes that would suit FM, during his two days of testing, doesn't hold much water.

I haven't spoken yet about Schumacher's involvement on this issue. Brad has.

In any case, Schumacher clearly had (has?) a say in the team and a personal relationship with Massa, a driver that in turn is where he is because his manager is the son of who he is.

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Yes it is. It's not fact. You cannot prove it is and neither can I. It therefore remains a theory.

Sure, like the "theory" that Hamilton had what his team considered the best strategy in all but _one_ race last season.

Utter bollocks. Not that it couldn't be true, just that you put yourself up as judge to deem it as fact. You thrive on the childish notion of driver favouritism like some playground obsession. Drivers have bad seasons and they have great seasons. Massa beat Kimi last year because he beat him. Argue the reasons all night, if you must. I saw Massa raise his game and Kimi go off the boil slightly, and that's it. Nothing more. Kimi is good and will be good again. This constant need to dissect the fact and pigeon hole it as some sort of Schumacher-led Massa leg-up, whilst interesting, is highly unlikely to be true. Everyone in the sport actually seems busy with the important things to me, not infant school mentality petulance. It's the fantacists on the outside who want it to be true.

It's not a soap opera. Stop trying to make it one. It's really not as exciting as you make it out to be. A small gobling bloke with glasses and scruffy grey hair runs a poxy circus. A pervert oversees the safety stuff and does his best to introduce legislation that no one likes. It's a bunch of boring tw*ts with no personality driving around in circles being paid way too much. Some of them will do it well and sometimes they don't. They add up the points at the end of the year and one of them picks up a title, a wad of cash and a shiny trophy. A bunch of c*ck suckers debate it endlessly over the internet. None of them know what really goes on so they guess, get it right and get it wrong. The people on the inside laugh at them and rightly so.

Favoritism is at the core of McLaren's driver management (it also reared its ugly head quite evidently in BMW and Ferrari last season).

But since the exclusive reason for your rant is your heroworship obsession with Hamilton, all there is to say is that you can shout from the rooftops that Kova is given as much of a chance as Hamilton, etc, etc... it won't make a difference. No matter how fanatical you are, even you don't believe it. Not a single person on the planet believes there is equality in McLaren.

Favoritism, like other forms of politics, are at the heart of the sport and contributes to lower quality of competition. If you were a true F1 fan, not a heroworshiper, you will not be blind to this.

I won't get into the other personal attacks you make as excuse for "argument". No need. I will be blamed for your words anyway. It's part of the fun.

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Different things are interesting to different people. It's normal.

There are those that think that, in order to improve F1, we need more passings. I personally don't care about passing and don't post on the issue. AFAIK, it is a matter of racing format and track design. If changed fine, it not, fine too.

There are those that think that, in order to improve F1, we need drivers with more glamour, personality, sex-appeal, media presence, whatever. I personally don't care about driver's mojo and don't post on the issue.

On the other hand...

There are those that think that, in order to improve F1, we need to free teams of development regulations (outside of safety and other elementary governance). I care about this and post on the issue.

There are those that think that, in order to improve F1, we need to move on from driver favoritism. I care about this and post on the issue.

And so?

In my opinion, the quality of competition has dropped because of the things I care about.

If teams had freedom to develop as they see fit and to spend within the budget each is able to amass, off-the-wall innovation would regularly upset the pecking order... as in any other line of business. This would undoubtedly improve the competition.

And, just the same, if favoritism were to be put aside, drivers would need to prove themselves on their own merit and the quality of the competition would improve. Free RB of the charge of MS and, perhaps, MS would've always won but the competition would have been better. Free Kova of Hamilton's absurd priviledges and, perhaps, Hamilton would still beat him and still would've won last year but the competition would have been better. Free Kimi of Massa's dead weight and, perhaps, Kimi would've not won last year anyway but the competition would have been better. Free Kubica of BMW's loopy move on Heidfeld's behalf and, perhaps, Kubika would've finished the championship just as he actually did but the competition would have been better. And so on...

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Maure - I agree with you on the messing about with specs issue and yes can see how innovation is stifled.

In terms of the favoritism - both at team level and within the fan base. This is just basic human behaviour and will always be there in one form or another. Whilst F1 still has two car teams, there will always be favourites, sometimes with good reason, sometimes not. Its pointless complaining about it as it won't go away and has been a feature of f1 for as long as I can remember and I've been watching it for 36 years (yes I started young).

What spoils the show for me and underpins all of this are two things, which are inter-related:

- Money: F1 is big business and money has warped the "sport" immeasurably badly. What started as a good thing (get sponsorship, expand TV coverage, encouraging investment) has now become an out of control monster. I've never been to a real race - can't afford it.

- Regulations: in order to deal with the above and to satisfy the greed and power cravings of a small bunch of people encyclopedias of regulations have emerged and very questionable inconsistencies in their interpretation are commonplace.

For F1 to get back to its roots Bernie and Max need to be kicked out. TV rights should be shared with the teams fairly. A non-profit-making trust should be setup to govern and manage revenues and regulations. Entrance of new teams should be encouraged. Customer car rules dropped. Salary caps placed on drivers. 1-car teams allowed. Freedom to innovate should be encouraged. Free of stupidly high hosting fees, track prices dropped to a level where families can go along.

Now I'd watch that and get excited F1 again, whereas at the moment watching it it just feels like a bad and unfulfilling habit.

But its not gonna happen...

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Talking about errors and work ethic to charge Kimi with engineering duties is... absurd.

:lol: No one's saying he needs to be an engineer but he's not as good as Massa is at working constructively with a team and developing a car.

Not a single person on the planet believes there is equality in McLaren.

But not many people think it made much difference to the outcome.

If teams had freedom to develop as they see fit and to spend within the budget each is able to amass, off-the-wall innovation would regularly upset the pecking order... as in any other line of business. This would undoubtedly improve the competition.

Surely you can see that this is completely and utterly impractical: you have to have very strict regulations to ensure safety. The pecking order doesn't change more in most comparable businesses or sports than in recent F1 imho. At least you don't try to claim that the innovation would be worth anything in scientific terms.

And, just the same, if favoritism were to be put aside, drivers would need to prove themselves on their own merit and the quality of the competition would improve. Free RB of the charge of MS and, perhaps, MS would've always won but the competition would have been better. Free Kova of Hamilton's absurd priviledges and, perhaps, Hamilton would still beat him and still would've won last year but the competition would have been better. Free Kimi of Massa's dead weight and, perhaps, Kimi would've not won last year anyway but the competition would have been better. Free Kubica of BMW's loopy move on Heidfeld's behalf and, perhaps, Kubika would've finished the championship just as he actually did but the competition would have been better. And so on...

Really you should be in favour of spec series because it's the only way for drivers to 'prove themselves on their own merit'. As long as you have teams, especially teams with the level of design-freedom you want, the engineers will determine who wins. And favouritism within teams is also inevitable as long as you have teams: the teams will always focus on winning, rather than allowing eg RB to take a few points off MS just because it makes the competition better for the fans.

Maure - I agree with you on the messing about with specs issue and yes can see how innovation is stifled.

In terms of the favoritism - both at team level and within the fan base. This is just basic human behaviour and will always be there in one form or another. Whilst F1 still has two car teams, there will always be favourites, sometimes with good reason, sometimes not. Its pointless complaining about it as it won't go away and has been a feature of f1 for as long as I can remember and I've been watching it for 36 years (yes I started young).

What spoils the show for me and underpins all of this are two things, which are inter-related:

- Money: F1 is big business and money has warped the "sport" immeasurably badly. What started as a good thing (get sponsorship, expand TV coverage, encouraging investment) has now become an out of control monster. I've never been to a real race - can't afford it.

- Regulations: in order to deal with the above and to satisfy the greed and power cravings of a small bunch of people encyclopedias of regulations have emerged and very questionable inconsistencies in their interpretation are commonplace.

For F1 to get back to its roots Bernie and Max need to be kicked out. TV rights should be shared with the teams fairly. A non-profit-making trust should be setup to govern and manage revenues and regulations. Entrance of new teams should be encouraged. Customer car rules dropped. Salary caps placed on drivers. 1-car teams allowed. Freedom to innovate should be encouraged. Free of stupidly high hosting fees, track prices dropped to a level where families can go along.

Now I'd watch that and get excited F1 again, whereas at the moment watching it it just feels like a bad and unfulfilling habit.

But its not gonna happen...

I agree with you about favouritism being inevitable in F1 whereas I think the other problems are inevitable too. As long as F1 remains such a popular and technologically advanced sport, I can't see F1 going back to having privateer teams with puny budgets, or technology regressing to the point that we don't need very strict regulations. As I always say, Max and Bernie have much better ideas for the sport than the teams do. For example, look at the teams' reluctance to develop KERS: I can't see more innovation happening if they were put in charge.

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Yep. You get it, Meanioni.

Note though that the issue of favoritism goes beyond human nature. As far as I am concerned, team owners are entitled to do with their teams as they see fit. It's their right. If some guy wants to compromise his team by shoving his half-witted son into a car, power to him, and if he backstabs the teammate to make his half-witted son look good, it is his business. But as a F1 fan, I cannot overlook that it hurts the sport because of, for example, the nationality or hype of such half-witted son.

Half way through last season, it became evident that the result of the championship would be a random thing... and it turned out to be a chance spell of rain what crowned Hamilton. My position is that with drivers like MS, Kimi, or Alonso in previous seasons, it was not so. Since well-connected drivers are getting the support of the top teams, the quality of the competition has been compromised... and if this season we don't see the midfield pushing through, we are for another random season.

Same goes for the business side of F1. That huge money is made out of the sport is not a problem for me. It is a fundamental right of those people that invest their time, effort, and assests into this business. They are entitled to everything they make out of it. I see no problem of any kind in it... unless it is at the expense of the sport, which is what is happening now.

The suggestions you write at the end of your post are debatable (although I suspect less so if you elaborated) but _all_ would make for a better F1. Spot on.

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I haven't spoken yet about Schumacher's involvement on this issue. Brad has.

In any case, Schumacher clearly had (has?) a say in the team and a personal relationship with Massa, a driver that in turn is where he is because his manager is the son of who he is.

true

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:lol: No one's saying he needs to be an engineer but he's not as good as Massa is at working constructively with a team and developing a car.

Is this a "theory"?

But not many people think it made much difference to the outcome.

Another "theory"?

Surely you can see that this is completely and utterly impractical: you have to have very strict regulations to ensure safety.

I wrote: There are those that think that, in order to improve F1, we need to free teams of development regulations (outside of safety and other elementary governance). Which part did you not understand?

The pecking order doesn't change more in most comparable businesses or sports than in recent F1 imho. At least you don't try to claim that the innovation would be worth anything in scientific terms.

Free entreprise guarantees changes in moderately fragmented markets. It's a fundamental necessity of business.

Really you should be in favour of spec series because it's the only way for drivers to 'prove themselves on their own merit'. As long as you have teams, especially teams with the level of design-freedom you want, the engineers will determine who wins. And favouritism within teams is also inevitable as long as you have teams: the teams will always focus on winning, rather than allowing eg RB to take a few points off MS just because it makes the competition better for the fans.

For a driver to prove himself, all you need to do is give him a fair chance to race. If you don't, he can't. And if you artificially 'alter' his chances, all you accomplish (in this respect) is to never be able to _tell_ if he is any good _on_his_own_... which is the reason why I reserve judgement on the capacity of drivers like Hamilton and Kova. It is simply impossible to determine what is due to the driver and what is due favoritism.

Specs have nothing to do with it.

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:lol: No one's saying he needs to be an engineer but he's not as good as Massa is at working constructively with a team and developing a car.

seriously Graham, How do YOU know that????? It's certainly more absurd than my " Schumacher favour Massa" theory!

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2007: favouritism cost Macca a title

2008: favouritism gave Macca a title

favouritism maybe cost Ferrari a title

favouritism plus stupidity did cost BMW a title

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I wrote: There are those that think that, in order to improve F1, we need to free teams of development regulations (outside of safety and other elementary governance). Which part did you not understand?

I don't understand what kind of regulations you're in favour of. Unless they restrict overall performance about as much as the current rules do, you won't have a safe sport.

Free entreprise guarantees changes in moderately fragmented markets. It's a fundamental necessity of business.

And you get change in F1 - more so than in many industries and sports.

For a driver to prove himself, all you need to do is give him a fair chance to race. If you don't, he can't. And if you artificially 'alter' his chances, all you accomplish (in this respect) is to never be able to _tell_ if he is any good _on_his_own_... which is the reason why I reserve judgement on the capacity of drivers like Hamilton and Kova. It is simply impossible to determine what is due to the driver and what is due favoritism.

Specs have nothing to do with it.

But he won't have a fair chance to race if everyone has different cars - this is precisely my reason for preferring specs. Your ideas are inconsistent because you want the championship to be more strongly influenced by technological change, while at the same time you want to see how good each driver is _on_his_own_. Furthermore, teams will never give each driver a fair chance because it is not at all in their interests to do so.

seriously Graham, How do YOU know that????? It's certainly more absurd than my " Schumacher favour Massa" theory!

I have friends in high places who tell me Kimi doesn't give a Sh#t about developing his car. Seriously Brad! :P No not really but I think it's pretty clear isn't it? Peter Sauber said the same. DC wasn't impressed with Kimi's work ethic. And you can see it for yourself: he doesn't even go to all the team debriefs.

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I have friends in high places who tell me Kimi doesn't give a Sh#t about developing his car. Seriously Brad! :P No not really but I think it's pretty clear isn't it? Peter Sauber said the same. DC wasn't impressed with Kimi's work ethic. And you can see it for yourself: he doesn't even go to all the team debriefs.

I do not understand how you can derive from this that Kimi is'nt good at developing the car. Ferrari has always said that Kimi always do what he is asked to do. Being not impresssed with someone's work ethic does'nt mean that person is'nt good at it. It's been said that with Kimi's input, you'de be close to scientific perfection, I've read this from F1 experts.

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Never heard Ferrari complain either. Though I did watch some interview where they said they were quite afraid at the start because of the rumours flying around about him :lol:

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If Ferrari favoured Massa in 2008 then why @ Spa last year did Ferrari develop a new chassis to suit Kimi???

Kimi still believed he had a chance at the title, he was'nt mathematically out of it. The fact that they (Ferrari) left it so late tells you something does'nt it....

and I never said Ferrari favoured Massa, don't get me wrong people...

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Kimi still believed he had a chance at the title, he was'nt mathematically out of it. The fact that they (Ferrari) left it so late tells you something does'nt it....

and I never said Ferrari favoured Massa, don't get me wrong people...

I know, but maure thinks so!

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2007: favouritism cost Macca a title

2008: favouritism gave Macca a title

favouritism maybe cost Ferrari a title

favouritism plus stupidity did cost BMW a title

Favouritism was a significant factor, undoubtedly.

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I don't understand what kind of regulations you're in favour of. Unless they restrict overall performance about as much as the current rules do, you won't have a safe sport.

It depends what you understand by "performance". If by that you mean high speeds, then you are in the wrong sport. Switch to marathons or synchronized swimming.

But it is evident you are just pretending not to get it. You, like everyone else, understand that safety features involve things like the capacity of the c#ckpit to survive crashes at high speeds, requiring the drivers to wear protective gear of certain quality and, among other examples, minimums concercing the stress that aero elements must be able to widthstand so that chunks don't break off the chassis, fly about, and cause an accident or hit someone. It's common sense.

And you get change in F1 - more so than in many industries and sports.

Some drivers do. Most don't... for many reasons, not only favouritism.

Simply being in an F1 guarantees nothing.

But he won't have a fair chance to race if everyone has different cars - this is precisely my reason for preferring specs. Your ideas are inconsistent because you want the championship to be more strongly influenced by technological change, while at the same time you want to see how good each driver is _on_his_own_. Furthermore, teams will never give each driver a fair chance because it is not at all in their interests to do so.

One thing is to drive for a different team and another to not be allowed to race your teammate because the boss is backing him. You understand this as does everyone else.

As I said earlier, I think it is legitimate for McLaren (and any other team) to do as they please. The problem for me is that is lowers the quality of the competition, and when the top teams are compromissed and unrepentant (as they are)... another random season await us unless the midfield saves the day.

I have friends in high places who tell me Kimi doesn't give a Sh#t about developing his car. Seriously Brad! :P No not really but I think it's pretty clear isn't it? Peter Sauber said the same. DC wasn't impressed with Kimi's work ethic. And you can see it for yourself: he doesn't even go to all the team debriefs.

I'm sure you do have friends in very high places, so high they are not earth-bound... just as I'm sure that you are the world-reknown academic you claim to be.

You bet, buddy.

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I know, but maure thinks so!

Indeed.

Without those connections, Massa would have never driven for Ferrari in the first place and, even if he had, he would've not lasted this long.

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Favouritism was a significant factor, undoubtedly.

Of course it was and it will be. Favouritism is a factor many great champions have had to deal with. It seems we can't use that word when we talk about some particular driver or team.

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Ferrari has always said that Kimi always do what he is asked to do.

Therein lies the problem, Brad.

I like Kimi and I was puzzled that he appeared to be marginalised by the team, but I guess what others are saying is that he perhaps doesn't help his cause by his work ethic.

Here's hoping he and Lewis are the front runners in 2009 ;)

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Noone said Kimi was perfect. He doesn't need to be. Talking about errors and work ethic to charge Kimi with engineering duties is... absurd. How about those drivers that are not perfect either (all of them, btw) yet have full support from their teams no matter how they perform?

Kimi's biggest problem was qualifying well. It compromissed a number of his races. Since fast laps are not one of Kimi's handicaps, the problems is elsewhere.

Drivers are essential to the car's development and setup! I thought that was common ground!

Also I said "perhaps", because as I said right after, we can only assume. All I know is that sometimes everybody can work a bit harder than what they may think is the "hardest". I didn't accuse Kimi of anything and I expect him to be a lion in a cage in Australia! Lets hope everything will be in place for Ferrari to win!

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Favouritism was a significant factor, undoubtedly.

In 2007 with Mac I agree it cost them the title. They should have favoured Alonso and told Lewis to STFU.

In 2008 Heikki was nowhere. Favoritism may have occurred but even with equal opportunity we all know Lewis would have spanked him. He's a mediocre driver looking for an excuse as to why he's underperforming.

As for Ferrari, even as a Kimi fan I have to admit I'm aware his head isn't always in the right place; that's part of the reason I like him. Favoritism may have played a part, but not a huge one.

BMW? Surely it was their failure to continue working on the 08 car which cost them the title? Where were points taken from Kubica by favoritism?

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I would think that most teams offer their drivers equal opportunity at the start of the season, and then focus more on the winningest driver as the season progresses. Its not really favouritism, it's common sense. As for the teams who do practice favouritism from from the first race on, that's just tough luck and a bit of a shame for the driver who loses out. Historically though, this has often worked out well for the teams in terms of winning titles. So it's not gonna change anytime soon. Not even if people whine about it on F1 forums.

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