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Brawn Gp

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The diffuser is a 'double decker' design: the 'U' shaped centre section does not form the roof of the diffuser, but is simply the lower deck of the set-up. The upper deck is formed around the crash structure and hence is a few centimetres higher than the limit of 175mm - this extra exit area is critical in gaining downforce.

Am I being extraordinarily stupid, or are Autosport suggesting this part of the design is illegal?

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Hmmm. My interpretation of the 2009 F1 Technical regs are that the diffuser on the BGP001 is illegal.

No bodywork which is visible from beneath the car and which lies between the rear wheel centre line and a

point 350mm rearward of it may be more than 175mm above the reference plane.

Am I right? The Autocar overview cleary states that the BGP001 is some centimetres above reference pane limitations and this would certainly effect downforce - and speed? Brawn can't have got that wrong, surely. Charlie Whiting would have spotted it at Barca. Wasn't that what Flabio was jumping around about?

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Am I right? The Autocar overview cleary states that the BGP001 is some centimetres above reference pane limitations and this would certainly effect downforce - and speed? Brawn can't have got that wrong, surely. Charlie Whiting would have spotted it at Barca. Wasn't that what Flabio was jumping around about?

Touche!

Williams, Toyota and BGP.

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I'm curious; why would Honda ditch a car that was going to be so competitive?

And so competitive no matter which engine you fit it with?

It is a good question.

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Yeah, the culture barrier is part of it, I'm sure. Rossi left Honda's MotoGP operation and cited similar reasons, he simply didn't like the way they went about racing, they were slow to react to the changes he wanted.

Only if by "culture", we mean a company culture. After all, Rossi went to another Japanese team.

I should say that I chuckle everytime I hear the "Japanase are too different" bit. It is more a wish than a reality... and I mean a wish on the Japanese side. You just don't know how hard they try to construe themselves as different and how brutally they fail. Ultimately, it is not unlike any other country with collective low self-steem, that is, most of the planet...

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Am I right? The Autocar overview cleary states that the BGP001 is some centimetres above reference pane limitations and this would certainly effect downforce - and speed? Brawn can't have got that wrong, surely. Charlie Whiting would have spotted it at Barca. Wasn't that what Flabio was jumping around about?

Briatore has a serious case of mass-damper syndrome which has changed him into a sort of regulation policeman of the grid...

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Hmmm. My interpretation of the 2009 F1 Technical regs are that the diffuser on the BGP001 is illegal.

Ah Harrr. Sam Michael would disagree Sean (the Toyota & Williams were the first to use the idea). This is specifically the part Charlie Whiting was sent to Barca to check - and he gave it the all-clear. Indeed, Max Muesli commented...

Mosley says, however, that the FIA has seen nothing illegal about the "clever" design, although he admitted a protest could not be ruled out during the season-opening Australian Grand Prix.

"It will always happen when you have got new regulations," Mosley told selected reporters on Thursday.

"The current FIA view is that Williams and Toyota have been clever and have exploited the wording of the rules in a clever way. But somebody may challenge it and the stewards may take a different view - it could happen.

Now of course, it would be far too simple for the FIA to issue a notice that it had been approved and a clarification issued - let's burn more resources, fly Charlie around a bit, take some points off some people we're not too happy with, bla bla bla........

Am I right? The Autocar overview cleary states that the BGP001 is some centimetres above reference pane limitations and this would certainly effect downforce - and speed? Brawn can't have got that wrong, surely. Charlie Whiting would have spotted it at Barca. Wasn't that what Flabio was jumping around about?

Indeedy, but the rules also allow for body work higher than this within a very narrow area under the rear light, and is usually part of the crash structure - all Team Willy (and allegedly Toyota and BGP) have done is use this to 'box in' their rear light and crash structure and, er well, capture a rather large draught wafting past it :lol:

Some articles here:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/fia-to-a...esign-3765.html

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/williams...esign-4543.html

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2009/0/623.html

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73140

This will drag on. Long enough for the FIA to adjust their 'thinking' strategically accordingly I'd guess.

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Yep, I read that article, didn't understand half of it* so I was waiting for George to give his seal of approval on it to say that I agree :P

*Blame my little knowledge of English more than my little knowledge of cars though.

Well I didn't understand all of it either*, but it sounds quite clever so that's a good sign :D

*Blame my little knowledge of cars, rather than my english :P

Only if by "culture", we mean a company culture. After all, Rossi went to another Japanese team.

I should say that I chuckle everytime I hear the "Japanase are too different" bit. It is more a wish than a reality... and I mean a wish on the Japanese side. You just don't know how hard they try to construe themselves as different and how brutally they fail. Ultimately, it is not unlike any other country with collective low self-steem, that is, most of the planet...

Company culture is indeed a better way of putting it. I forget exactly what Rossi's problem was, but he didn't like the attitude of Honda in MotoGP, anyway it's all in the autobiography. Like I said I expect a similar situation occurred with the F1 team.

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Ah Harrr. Sam Michael would disagree Sean (the Toyota & Williams were the first to use the idea). This is specifically the part Charlie Whiting was sent to Barca to check - and he gave it the all-clear. Indeed, Max Muesli commented...

Now of course, it would be far too simple for the FIA to issue a notice that it had been approved and a clarification issued - let's burn more resources, fly Charlie around a bit, take some points off some people we're not too happy with, bla bla bla........

Indeedy, but the rules also allow for body work higher than this within a very narrow area under the rear light, and is usually part of the crash structure - all Team Willy (and allegedly Toyota and BGP) have done is use this to 'box in' their rear light and crash structure and, er well, capture a rather large draught wafting past it :lol:

Some articles here:

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/fia-to-a...esign-3765.html

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/williams...esign-4543.html

http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2009/0/623.html

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73140

This will drag on. Long enough for the FIA to adjust their 'thinking' strategically accordingly I'd guess.

Nice one. Good info, Meds. Let's hope BGP don't do the unthinkable and win in Melly, only for the local steward to DQ them, eh?

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Well I didn't understand all of it either*, but it sounds quite clever so that's a good sign :D

*Blame my little knowledge of cars, rather than my english :P

Company culture is indeed a better way of putting it. I forget exactly what Rossi's problem was, but he didn't like the attitude of Honda in MotoGP, anyway it's all in the autobiography. Like I said I expect a similar situation occurred with the F1 team.

LOL

And I do remember about Rossi: reluctance to change things on the bike when the rider asks them to, generally doing things their way with little regard for riders, and being a##holes sometimes (like when they lied about giving him his bike XD). I think this sums it up. And you might like to add the "condemned to win" thing.

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LOL

And I do remember about Rossi: reluctance to change things on the bike when the rider asks them to, generally doing things their way with little regard for riders, and being a##holes sometimes (like when they lied about giving him his bike XD). I think this sums it up. And you might like to add the "condemned to win" thing.

Yep. They expected him to win every race and gave him grief when he didn't. Their argument was "you have the best bike". His argument was "you ride it if you think it's that easy"...

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And so competitive no matter which engine you fit it with?

It is a good question.

Like I said, back up the thread, it was a commercial consideration and, from the shareholders point of view, the honourable thing to do.

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Just got an email from my pal Chappo, who now lives in Spain and spent the week at Barca. He was a tech guy at Jordan and Stewart for for several years and at Cosi. He says the BGP001 was eating tyres but they seem to have brought that under control, as they have with some oversteer issues. The gearbox isn't behaving itself completely but apart from that he figured it was a great package straight out of the wind tunnel and the times were staggering. He reckons the nose and the diffuser are key points but overall the car looks a lot slicker through the air than anything else out there. He's a lifelong fan of the Scuderia and Rubens but said Jens looked as fit as a butcher's dog. Apparently, the word was, he arrived way below his target weight and they had to add ballast accordingly which would have altered the balance of the car and could easily account for the two tenths Rubens pulled on him at the death. JB had clearly trained for a KERS-fitted car and needs to get some pasta down him and get that chassis balanced off if he is indeed, underweight.

Edited by Insider

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Interesting.

Are we really going to have to accept that BGP can do better with so much less? Freaky...

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Interesting. Are we really going to have to accept that BGP can do better with so much less? Freaky...

It is freaky maure - most people's perception of BGP now, is that of a team born in the garden shed, whereas it has been one of the best funded teams for the last 18 months or so. What makes it worse is the terrible dress sense :lol: of this 'new' team and (apparent) lack of sponsors.

They've had (as Newey complained) more windtunnel time over the year than any other team, with one of the best aero guys in the business - and as mentioned, plenty of time for Brawn to bring together the team in a way Honda could only dream of.

The late engine change - it seems the crank height and general dimensions were incredibly similar to the Honda (so few installation problems there, unlike the Ferrari's which is very different), and they were able to use the (planned) Honda gearbox, so all of the suspension mountings would be more-or-less those as planned too.

What else of the engine? Well, it's known that the Honda lump was down on power, so they've a touch more than planned for - but maybe other bonuses came in too - the drivers have already commented on its silky power delivery compared to the Honda (hmm, says a lot about some recent wet weather performances from both teams). And what if the Merc unit is a bit lighter as well as more driveable, then more can be done with ballast than first thought. We're already performing better than planned with the original Honda lump - and Brawn has said since November (before the Honda plug pulling act) they were confident of front of the grid with things as they were.

The main problems they have now is to keep pace with development, which could be a problem, but a smaller one since the in-season testing ban should slow this down for most teams. KERS.... whilst this car can take a KERS unit, it was designed for Honda's KERS (which it seems they still have the IP to, and might not let it go to a Merc-engined team!), which looks like it was going to be truly different - a flywheel-storage type, the bulk of the assembly placed under the driver's knees for superb weight distribution, and leaving the sidepods beautifully small and relatively drag-free compared to some of the other teams, with the bulky KERS units 'n batteries stored in the sidepods and around the tank.

Where are we at then? We have a team funded well enough for one year to develop and gain kudos and subsequent backers/sponsors, which they are confident of doing (and I am too, for what it's worth :P ).

And, even though the budget is OK-ish for the year, they have already started taking huge strides in savings, in areas where it doesn't affect car performance - team members taking budget flights (inc management, I kid not), packed lunches (I kid), huge reduction in motor homes and general easy-living posh peripheral stuff, huge savings planned with transport for the Euro races (leaving transporters and non-essential equipment in mainland Europe, rather than lugging it back here etc), and plenty more.

We have a car that, for the fly-away races, will be at the pointy end of the grid, and probably likely to at least stay in touch with the top 3 teams throughout the season (even if their early performance drops away a touch).

So yes, be prepared for a team doing far better on much less - but haven't the people in Brackley (I don't mean Honda) learnt through the most painful lessons?.... the cruel winter months of not knowing their future, even a feeling for some of embarrasment - working for one of the best funded and most wasteful teams one minute, then rolling their sleeves up for a tough, and still insecure, future?

That's why I am a confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, supporter of this great new band of merry men, men in white, black and strange flourescent-yellow tights. :D

I'm a Brawnisteric maure - you can call me that with pleasure :P

Edited by medilloni

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Good post Meds!

LOL

And I do remember about Rossi: reluctance to change things on the bike when the rider asks them to, generally doing things their way with little regard for riders, and being a##holes sometimes (like when they lied about giving him his bike XD). I think this sums it up. And you might like to add the "condemned to win" thing.

Ah yes, that was it, pretty good reasons to leave.

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It is freaky maure - most people's perception of BGP now, is that of a team born in the garden shed, whereas it has been one of the best funded teams for the last 18 months or so. What makes it worse is the terrible dress sense :lol: of this 'new' team and (apparent) lack of sponsors.

They've had (as Newey complained) more windtunnel time over the year than any other team, with one of the best aero guys in the business - and as mentioned, plenty of time for Brawn to bring together the team in a way Honda could only dream of.

The late engine change - it seems the crank height and general dimensions were incredibly similar to the Honda (so few installation problems there, unlike the Ferrari's which is very different), and they were able to use the (planned) Honda gearbox, so all of the suspension mountings would be more-or-less those as planned too.

What else of the engine? Well, it's known that the Honda lump was down on power, so they've a touch more than planned for - but maybe other bonuses came in too - the drivers have already commented on its silky power delivery compared to the Honda (hmm, says a lot about some recent wet weather performances from both teams). And what if the Merc unit is a bit lighter as well as more driveable, then more can be done with ballast than first thought. We're already performing better than planned with the original Honda lump - and Brawn has said since November (before the Honda plug pulling act) they were confident of front of the grid with things as they were.

The main problems they have now is to keep pace with development, which could be a problem, but a smaller one since the in-season testing ban should slow this down for most teams. KERS.... whilst this car can take a KERS unit, it was designed for Honda's KERS (which it seems they still have the IP to, and might not let it go to a Merc-engined team!), which looks like it was going to be truly different - a flywheel-storage type, the bulk of the assembly placed under the driver's knees for superb weight distribution, and leaving the sidepods beautifully small and relatively drag-free compared to some of the other teams, with the bulky KERS units 'n batteries stored in the sidepods and around the tank.

Where are we at then? We have a team funded well enough for one year to develop and gain kudos and subsequent backers/sponsors, which they are confident of doing (and I am too, for what it's worth :P ).

And, even though the budget is OK-ish for the year, they have already started taking huge strides in savings, in areas where it doesn't affect car performance - team members taking budget flights (inc management, I kid not), packed lunches (I kid), huge reduction in motor homes and general easy-living posh peripheral stuff, huge savings planned with transport for the Euro races (leaving transporters and non-essential equipment in mainland Europe, rather than lugging it back here etc), and plenty more.

We have a car that, for the fly-away races, will be at the pointy end of the grid, and probably likely to at least stay in touch with the top 3 teams throughout the season (even if their early performance drops away a touch).

So yes, be prepared for a team doing far better on much less - but haven't the people in Brackley (I don't mean Honda) learnt through the most painful lessons?.... the cruel winter months of not knowing their future, even a feeling for some of embarrasment - working for one of the best funded and most wasteful teams one minute, then rolling their sleeves up for a tough, and still insecure, future?

That's why I am a confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, supporter of this great new band of merry men, men in white, black and strange flourescent-yellow tights. :D

I'm a Brawnisteric maure - you can call me that with pleasure :P

Great post, Meds. I understand the patent argument on KERS but by the time Honda get back in, [if they do] with a Honda engine, [you jest], the design will probably be old news. I rather think Ross got that in his stocking, to be honest.

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It is freaky maure - most people's perception of BGP now, is that of a team born in the garden shed, whereas it has been one of the best funded teams for the last 18 months or so. What makes it worse is the terrible dress sense :lol: of this 'new' team and (apparent) lack of sponsors.

They've had (as Newey complained) more windtunnel time over the year than any other team, with one of the best aero guys in the business - and as mentioned, plenty of time for Brawn to bring together the team in a way Honda could only dream of.

The late engine change - it seems the crank height and general dimensions were incredibly similar to the Honda (so few installation problems there, unlike the Ferrari's which is very different), and they were able to use the (planned) Honda gearbox, so all of the suspension mountings would be more-or-less those as planned too.

What else of the engine? Well, it's known that the Honda lump was down on power, so they've a touch more than planned for - but maybe other bonuses came in too - the drivers have already commented on its silky power delivery compared to the Honda (hmm, says a lot about some recent wet weather performances from both teams). And what if the Merc unit is a bit lighter as well as more driveable, then more can be done with ballast than first thought. We're already performing better than planned with the original Honda lump - and Brawn has said since November (before the Honda plug pulling act) they were confident of front of the grid with things as they were.

The main problems they have now is to keep pace with development, which could be a problem, but a smaller one since the in-season testing ban should slow this down for most teams. KERS.... whilst this car can take a KERS unit, it was designed for Honda's KERS (which it seems they still have the IP to, and might not let it go to a Merc-engined team!), which looks like it was going to be truly different - a flywheel-storage type, the bulk of the assembly placed under the driver's knees for superb weight distribution, and leaving the sidepods beautifully small and relatively drag-free compared to some of the other teams, with the bulky KERS units 'n batteries stored in the sidepods and around the tank.

Where are we at then? We have a team funded well enough for one year to develop and gain kudos and subsequent backers/sponsors, which they are confident of doing (and I am too, for what it's worth :P ).

And, even though the budget is OK-ish for the year, they have already started taking huge strides in savings, in areas where it doesn't affect car performance - team members taking budget flights (inc management, I kid not), packed lunches (I kid), huge reduction in motor homes and general easy-living posh peripheral stuff, huge savings planned with transport for the Euro races (leaving transporters and non-essential equipment in mainland Europe, rather than lugging it back here etc), and plenty more.

We have a car that, for the fly-away races, will be at the pointy end of the grid, and probably likely to at least stay in touch with the top 3 teams throughout the season (even if their early performance drops away a touch).

So yes, be prepared for a team doing far better on much less - but haven't the people in Brackley (I don't mean Honda) learnt through the most painful lessons?.... the cruel winter months of not knowing their future, even a feeling for some of embarrasment - working for one of the best funded and most wasteful teams one minute, then rolling their sleeves up for a tough, and still insecure, future?

That's why I am a confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, supporter of this great new band of merry men, men in white, black and strange flourescent-yellow tights. :D

I'm a Brawnisteric maure - you can call me that with pleasure :P

Great post indeed. It's just a shame you didn' have the foresight to predict them being on the 2009 grid.

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[quote name='dribbler' post='284210' date='Mar 14 2009, 03:58 PM']Great post indeed. It's just a shame you didn' have the foresight to predict them being on the 2009 grid.[/quote]

:lol:

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Great post indeed. It's just a shame you didn' have the foresight to predict them being on the 2009 grid.

:blush: Shucks, I thought no-one had noticed my "by the way, did I mention..." game. :lol:

C'mon guys and gals, I know it's soft to support the underdog, but really, can you imagine what it will be like if a BGP car crosses the line for a podium, or even, dare I say it, for the win?

I think one will.

And what would go through Fernando's mind if he gets blown away by one (after being offered a seat there)?

How (if they continue struggling in Melly) will Lewis take to fighting in the mid field, maybe fighting knowing he's not up for the points?

How will I keep my sanity if Rubens does that effing stupid walk to the podium?

Big change is in the air, '09 is going to see incredibly close racing.

Edited by medilloni

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And what would go through Fernando's mind if he gets blown away by one (after being offered a seat there)?

How (if they continue struggling in Melly) will Lewis take to fighting in the mid field, maybe fighting knowing he's not up for the points?

Hamilton and Alonso together in BGP? :snack:

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Yes Meds, I'm crossing my fingers for all of that to happen (mind you, my last two times crossing fingers transformed into two victories for Liverpool :P )

I can't wait!!

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:blush: Shucks, I thought no-one had noticed my "by the way, did I mention..." game. :lol:

C'mon guys and gals, I know it's soft to support the underdog, but really, can you imagine what it will be like if a BGP car crosses the line for a podium, or even, dare I say it, for the win?

I think one will.

And what would go through Fernando's mind if he gets blown away by one (after being offered a seat there)?

How (if they continue struggling in Melly) will Lewis take to fighting in the mid field, maybe fighting knowing he's not up for the points?

How will I keep my sanity if Rubens does that effing stupid walk to the podium?

Big change is in the air, '09 is going to see incredibly close racing.

Lewis would want the quickest car, for sure. But I don't think he'll be that peaved if the McLaren isn;t a winner out of the box. His relationship and historical routes are so firmly bound in Woking that he would get greater satisfaction in bringing the car back to race winning ways than he would if he was banging in easy wins from the start. I may have the psyche of an F1 driver totally wrong but think about Michael Schumacher; yes he was earning a big fat wage from the off at Maranello but when that title in 2000 cam e along I bet it tasted all the sweeter knowing that he had to work damned hard for it.

Lewis may get a bit dissapointed but he will drive his nuts off and support McLaren one hundred percent.

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I'm sure there'll be a few red faces at the McLaren factory at the moment. Oh the embarrasment of being outperformed by a customer team!

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It is freaky maure - most people's perception of BGP now, is that of a team born in the garden shed, whereas it has been one of the best funded teams for the last 18 months or so. What makes it worse is the terrible dress sense :lol: of this 'new' team and (apparent) lack of sponsors.

They've had (as Newey complained) more windtunnel time over the year than any other team, with one of the best aero guys in the business - and as mentioned, plenty of time for Brawn to bring together the team in a way Honda could only dream of.

The late engine change - it seems the crank height and general dimensions were incredibly similar to the Honda (so few installation problems there, unlike the Ferrari's which is very different), and they were able to use the (planned) Honda gearbox, so all of the suspension mountings would be more-or-less those as planned too.

What else of the engine? Well, it's known that the Honda lump was down on power, so they've a touch more than planned for - but maybe other bonuses came in too - the drivers have already commented on its silky power delivery compared to the Honda (hmm, says a lot about some recent wet weather performances from both teams). And what if the Merc unit is a bit lighter as well as more driveable, then more can be done with ballast than first thought. We're already performing better than planned with the original Honda lump - and Brawn has said since November (before the Honda plug pulling act) they were confident of front of the grid with things as they were.

The main problems they have now is to keep pace with development, which could be a problem, but a smaller one since the in-season testing ban should slow this down for most teams. KERS.... whilst this car can take a KERS unit, it was designed for Honda's KERS (which it seems they still have the IP to, and might not let it go to a Merc-engined team!), which looks like it was going to be truly different - a flywheel-storage type, the bulk of the assembly placed under the driver's knees for superb weight distribution, and leaving the sidepods beautifully small and relatively drag-free compared to some of the other teams, with the bulky KERS units 'n batteries stored in the sidepods and around the tank.

Where are we at then? We have a team funded well enough for one year to develop and gain kudos and subsequent backers/sponsors, which they are confident of doing (and I am too, for what it's worth :P ).

And, even though the budget is OK-ish for the year, they have already started taking huge strides in savings, in areas where it doesn't affect car performance - team members taking budget flights (inc management, I kid not), packed lunches (I kid), huge reduction in motor homes and general easy-living posh peripheral stuff, huge savings planned with transport for the Euro races (leaving transporters and non-essential equipment in mainland Europe, rather than lugging it back here etc), and plenty more.

We have a car that, for the fly-away races, will be at the pointy end of the grid, and probably likely to at least stay in touch with the top 3 teams throughout the season (even if their early performance drops away a touch).

So yes, be prepared for a team doing far better on much less - but haven't the people in Brackley (I don't mean Honda) learnt through the most painful lessons?.... the cruel winter months of not knowing their future, even a feeling for some of embarrasment - working for one of the best funded and most wasteful teams one minute, then rolling their sleeves up for a tough, and still insecure, future?

That's why I am a confirmed, dyed-in-the-wool, supporter of this great new band of merry men, men in white, black and strange flourescent-yellow tights. :D

I'm a Brawnisteric maure - you can call me that with pleasure :P

To qualify as any-isteric you have to do more than back a team. You are familiar with the details.

In any case, your post details some of the things a team (any team) needs to do right in order to get anywhere. The only "but" to your post is that there is no unequivocal causal relationship between their actions and the results seen. They could have still gotten it wrong... as do teams all the time.

Morevoer, since BGP had so little testing time and, inspite of this, were from the first day thundermates, it is impossible not to wonder how much luck had to do with it (if any of this is true). After all, it is always a lottery to go from sim to track and, in this case, they nailed it in one smooth go. Besides which, can anyone remember any time in F1 history when a team that finished last one season (bar FI and SA) became the top dog the season following? It is still too much to bet on it.

And what would go through Fernando's mind if he gets blown away by one (after being offered a seat there)?

He shouldn't care too much or at all. It would be stupid otherwise. Even now BGP is light years away from a sure bet and, regardless how they do this year, they are a team that can not (should not be able to) sustain the pace for seasons to come.

How (if they continue struggling in Melly) will Lewis take to fighting in the mid field, maybe fighting knowing he's not up for the points?

Same as above although he seems to have no car this year. Perhaps in Hamilton's case, a drive at Honda could've help him maintain the collective dellusion alive...

How will I keep my sanity if Rubens does that effing stupid walk to the podium?

Last year, RB kicked Button's arse and then twice more for safe measure. Since I rate Button highly, were these guys to the title contenders, I'd hope for an intense fight, hopefully the kind of racing we never got last season...

Edited by maure

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