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I preffer Rubens to Jenson.I'm not saying Jenson is a bad driver, i think he's just over rated and as Maure says, Rubens has kicked Jenson's arse over the past 2 seasons.

No, just for one season! In some cases just like RB vs JB, drivers were outperformed my their team mates unlike the previous season (2007). For example, Kimi vs Massa. This year it would be interesting how team mates war would build up. I see Kimi much stronger this season. But If the Brawns' menacing pace continues I am sure JB and RB have a good chance to win their long awaited WDC. Atleast RB won't be forced to slow down before the end of any race this season!

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To qualify as any-isteric you have to do more than back a team. You are familiar with the details.

I'm not familiar with the details, I seem to have missed your criteria. I was making light -_-

In any case, your post details some of the things a team (any team) needs to do right in order to get anywhere. The only "but" to your post is that there is no unequivocal causal relationship between their actions and the results seen. They could have still gotten it wrong... as do teams all the time.

My post was full of holes, I like holes. If by causal relationships with actions you mean the design basics (their 'actions' when penning the car), then take a look at, in order; the lip that runs up the nose (pulls air flow down to the 'snow plough' splitter), the double splitter itself (which increases air speed as it leaves the splitter), then read up on where the floor is fed air at a more efficient temperature ('cos as I guess you'll know, temperature affects the air flow). The detail and basics of the car are vastly different to others out there - sorry to not provide the info here, this is due to downright laziness, I really can't be arsed.

Morevoer, since BGP had so little testing time and, inspite of this, were from the first day thundermates, it is impossible not to wonder how much luck had to do with it (if any of this is true). After all, it is always a lottery to go from sim to track and, in this case, they nailed it in one smooth go. Besides which, can anyone remember any time in F1 history when a team that finished last one season (bar FI and SA) became the top dog the season following? It is still too much to bet on it.

Is 'thundermates' like 'thunderpants'? I hope so because it was a damn good book. Lottery from sim to track? Maybe, but if their research is accurate, then they are only playing the same lottery as the others. They would nail it from one smooth go due to the reasons mentioned in my first post - they put together all of the Kings Men and all of the Kings Info properly. For the first time!!

Besides which, can anyone remember any time in F1 history when a team that finished last one season (bar FI and SA) became the top dog the season following? It is still too much to bet on it

I love this bit (not a 'go' at you, just people in general), we could mention others like Ligier, Wolf and a couple of other wild cards, but this isn't 'then'. Why do we need a precedent? Surely, as we've moved on from the past, and modelling, simulations and other cool bits of kit (compared to many years ago) such as cfd make development faster, then we should be prepared for a new raft of regs throwing up a great result from someone that can do sums?

He shouldn't care too much or at all. It would be stupid otherwise. Even now BGP is light years away from a sure bet and, regardless how they do this year, they are a team that can not (should not be able to) sustain the pace for seasons to come.

You could be right. Though I think you're wrong, with a wing and a prayer, if their results are good and the raft of cost-cutting kicks in soon enough (theirs as well as those proposed by FOTA), then I believe they can weather the storm and be here for the long term, having just enough momentum, and enough cash in hand, to launch them into full time contenders, attracting the neccessary dosh in due course. Of course, this is conjecture ;)

Last year, RB kicked Button's arse and then twice more for safe measure. Since I rate Button highly, were these guys to the title contenders, I'd hope for an intense fight, hopefully the kind of racing we never got last season...

I'm a huge fan of Button, but I have to agree you're right, Button should be 100th ahead all the time, minimum. He got lazy last year, not the sign of a 'great', but I find it hard not to give him some slack for putting up with truly sh1t cars for so long - Heidfeld for example, is a fine driver, has had more opportunities with less success.... only my opinion :P I think Brawn would allow a fight until marketing/finances/future plans kick in, then he'd ruthlessly (and rightfully) insist on the drivers playing for the team.

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I'm impressed.

Where do you get your Japanese from?

Why, oh why did you have to ask? I was trying to maker an impression here!

I cannot lie, all my japanese comes from James Clavell's "Shogun" book :blush:

Nihongo ga wakarimasen. :P

By the way, despite being a best seller, it's a fascinating way to learn the intrincacies of the birth Tokugawa Shogunate (Tokugawa being called Toranaga in the novel)

Oh, and I think the whole cultural barrier means s##t. They are Japanese, not martians. Last time I checked Rubens was Brazilian yet he worked for years for an Italian team with a German teanmate and a French boss. His performances there also suffered from cultural barriers? On the other hand... :eusa_think:

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Why, oh why did you have to ask? I was trying to maker an impression here!

I cannot lie, all my japanese comes from James Clavell's "Shogun" book :blush:

Nihongo ga wakarimasen. :P

By the way, despite being a best seller, it's a fascinating way to learn the intrincacies of the birth Tokugawa Shogunate (Tokugawa being called Toranaga in the novel)

Oh, and I think the whole cultural barrier means s##t. They are Japanese, not martians. Last time I checked Rubens was Brazilian yet he worked for years for an Italian team with a German teanmate and a French boss. His performances there also suffered from cultural barriers? On the other hand... :eusa_think:

You should also read on the two guys that came before Ieyasu Tokegawa, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Oda Nobunaga. It's all quite epic. One of my favorite periods in Japanese history, undoubtely.

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I'm not familiar with the details, I seem to have missed your criteria. I was making light -_-

My post was full of holes, I like holes. If by causal relationships with actions you mean the design basics (their 'actions' when penning the car), then take a look at, in order; the lip that runs up the nose (pulls air flow down to the 'snow plough' splitter), the double splitter itself (which increases air speed as it leaves the splitter), then read up on where the floor is fed air at a more efficient temperature ('cos as I guess you'll know, temperature affects the air flow). The detail and basics of the car are vastly different to others out there - sorry to not provide the info here, this is due to downright laziness, I really can't be arsed.

Is 'thundermates' like 'thunderpants'? I hope so because it was a damn good book. Lottery from sim to track? Maybe, but if their research is accurate, then they are only playing the same lottery as the others. They would nail it from one smooth go due to the reasons mentioned in my first post - they put together all of the Kings Men and all of the Kings Info properly. For the first time!!

I love this bit (not a 'go' at you, just people in general), we could mention others like Ligier, Wolf and a couple of other wild cards, but this isn't 'then'. Why do we need a precedent? Surely, as we've moved on from the past, and modelling, simulations and other cool bits of kit (compared to many years ago) such as cfd make development faster, then we should be prepared for a new raft of regs throwing up a great result from someone that can do sums?

You could be right. Though I think you're wrong, with a wing and a prayer, if their results are good and the raft of cost-cutting kicks in soon enough (theirs as well as those proposed by FOTA), then I believe they can weather the storm and be here for the long term, having just enough momentum, and enough cash in hand, to launch them into full time contenders, attracting the neccessary dosh in due course. Of course, this is conjecture ;)

I'm a huge fan of Button, but I have to agree you're right, Button should be 100th ahead all the time, minimum. He got lazy last year, not the sign of a 'great', but I find it hard not to give him some slack for putting up with truly sh1t cars for so long - Heidfeld for example, is a fine driver, has had more opportunities with less success.... only my opinion :P I think Brawn would allow a fight until marketing/finances/future plans kick in, then he'd ruthlessly (and rightfully) insist on the drivers playing for the team.

You missed the point I was trying to make, namely, that considering how things have come about, if any of this is true, there is a huge amount of pure luck that must be factored in. Doing your homework is not enough in F1 unless one wants to claim that, for example, McLaren's engineers spent their their time attending cunnilinctus seminars instead of desiging this season's car. One thing is to say that BGP managed to be among front runners. Another is for BGP to jump ahead of the entire field without even having to test their car. Regarding historical references, they have their place because they show trends and they are valuable as such. After all, if they could be violated on principle, trends would show that too...

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Why, oh why did you have to ask? I was trying to maker an impression here!

I cannot lie, all my japanese comes from James Clavell's "Shogun" book :blush:

Nihongo ga wakarimasen. :P

By the way, despite being a best seller, it's a fascinating way to learn the intrincacies of the birth Tokugawa Shogunate (Tokugawa being called Toranaga in the novel)

Oh, and I think the whole cultural barrier means s##t. They are Japanese, not martians. Last time I checked Rubens was Brazilian yet he worked for years for an Italian team with a German teanmate and a French boss. His performances there also suffered from cultural barriers? On the other hand... :eusa_think:

:lol:

And OK, I wondered because you usually support Rubens. Personally I have no idea if cultural barriers had a role in Honda's performance but I certainly do think they exist very often, even between streets in the same town for example.

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I preffer Rubens to Jenson. I'm not saying Jenson is a bad driver, I think he's just over rated and as Maure says, Rubens has kicked Jenson's arse over the past 2 seasons.
They are both excellent drivers and two or three tenths here and there, from season to season, to one or the other's advantage is irrelevant. All this kicking arse nonsense is bollocks. We've seen it all before with Senna/Prost, Berger/Alesi, Hakkinen/Coultard, Schuey/Irvine etc, etc, etc. JB and RB are every bit as good as the guys they are fighting against and they've been proving it all last week and intense rivalry is a good thing in my book. In the past two years, JB lost heart and RB took advantage of that, to an extent. In essence, both of them had two shocking seasons in a joke of a car. In my opinion, RB is driving at at his very best but I believe JB is just warming to the task. We shall see. They have one great car right now and RB has gone microscopically quicker to date. There will be two cars soon. Just let's hope they're equally matched and then let the fun begin. Edited by Insider

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Point of interest. If you visit the BrawnGP site you will see a list of sponsors/partners in the bottom left hand corner of the page. Bridgestone, [of course], PerkinElmer, [a human and environmental health group], Alpinestars, [can't have team walking about naked, can we], Ciber, [iT solutions], Cytec, [a global specialty chemicals and materials company], Endless, [an independent private equity house specialising in management buy-outs], IBM, Laverstoke Park, [an organic farming enterprise and country pile, bordering my own piddly abode and owned by the 1979 WDC, Jody Sheckter, no less] and STL, [business strategy consultants]. The Sheckter connection seems to be the odd one out here. We are many, many miles from Northamptonshire, so food supply is off the list, as is corporate catering, unless Brawn or Fry have moved into the Winchester area recently. Jody does have very deep pockets though. His current personal wealth is estimated at around

Edited by Insider

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You should also read on the two guys that came before Ieyasu Tokegawa, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Oda Nobunaga. It's all quite epic. One of my favorite periods in Japanese history, undoubtely.

I read about them, too (and the story of them is also told in Shogun). I just never understood the differences between them from history books. It was a complex, fascinating story. The novel is obviously a simplification but allowed me to understand the differences and follow the path of the trio.

Indeed, one of the most fascinating periods in history. :D

@Muzza: I had a soft spot for Rubinho. Until now. Now that everybody wants BGP to win, I decided I want them to fail. I don't like the isochronous movement of the herd :P

Seriously, I think there are cultural barriers everywhere (this forum is a living example). I just don't think that the cultural barrier can account for Honda's dismal performances. I bet the cultural barrier should have been even worse in the pre-internet days of Senna and Prost, right? Yet the McLaren Honda was the non plus ultra of F1 cars (and, to some extent, it still is)

Again, it was a Japanese team, with an English team, a French driver and a Brazilian one. They won 15 out of 16 races. Cultural barriers my a##.

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:lol: So to turn you into a Lewisteric we should all pretend to want Lewis to fail. Hmm... I'll create a second account and see what I can do to help you see the light.

I agree cultural barriers aren't going to completely account for any dismal performance: they can always be overcome, they just sometimes make it harder to succeed, and that might have been the case here.

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I read about them, too (and the story of them is also told in Shogun). I just never understood the differences between them from history books. It was a complex, fascinating story. The novel is obviously a simplification but allowed me to understand the differences and follow the path of the trio.

Indeed, one of the most fascinating periods in history. :D

@Muzza: I had a soft spot for Rubinho. Until now. Now that everybody wants BGP to win, I decided I want them to fail. I don't like the isochronous movement of the herd :P

Seriously, I think there are cultural barriers everywhere (this forum is a living example). I just don't think that the cultural barrier can account for Honda's dismal performances. I bet the cultural barrier should have been even worse in the pre-internet days of Senna and Prost, right? Yet the McLaren Honda was the non plus ultra of F1 cars (and, to some extent, it still is)

Again, it was a Japanese team, with an English team, a French driver and a Brazilian one. They won 15 out of 16 races. Cultural barriers my a##.

But, Honda just supplied engines, didn't have much influence in running the team I belive. A person who worked for BMW (engine department) informed me. Thats one of the reasons Mclaren F1s were powered by BMW, he told me that Honda were not even considered as engine suppliers for their road cars.

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I agree cultural barriers aren't going to completely account for any dismal performance: they can always be overcome, they just sometimes make it harder to succeed, and that might have been the case here.

Yes.

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Jerez Sunday. Fine work by Nando to get into the 19s but he was never going to run a race distance today so he could have just being doing quali sims. Brawn still looking pretty solid though and there is clearly a sub 19 to come.

1 Rubens Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes BGP001 B 1:19.235 201.229 102 laps

2 Fernando Alonso Renault R29 B 1:19.819 0.584 199.757 33 laps

3 Nico H

Edited by Insider

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Jerez Sunday. Fine work by Nando to get into the 19s but he was never going to run a race distance today so he could have just being doing quali sims. Brawn still looking pretty solid though and there is clearly a sub 19 to come.

1 Rubens Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes BGP001 B 1:19.235 201.229 102 laps

2 Fernando Alonso Renault R29 B 1:19.819 0.584 199.757 33 laps

3 Nico H

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Is the McLaren undrivable now? :P

I shouldn't think so, but a team going to a test and not getting the car out of the garage all day means they have an extremely serious problem on their hands. :D

Edited by Insider

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I shouldn't think so, but a team going to a test and not getting the car out of the garage all day means they have an extremely serious problem on their hands. :D

I see that you are quite as sorry as I am for McLaren :D

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I shouldn't think so, but a team going to a test and not getting the car out of the garage all day means they have an extremely serious problem on their hands. :D

As George said, they only did an installation today. Their programme starts tomorrow.

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As George said, they only did an installation today. Their programme starts tomorrow.

Hmmm.

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How exciting! Seems we have a fight on our hands here, and with a team no one expected to be up there in the midst of it all!

Marvelous!

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Hmmmm, maybe Mercedes may start regretting supplying Brawn GP with engines. Mercedes may find them selves behind them for quite sometime this season.

How weird would it be if Jenson was the top British driver this year. That'd completely throw the UK "I love Lewis" band wagon completely!

Im glad Jenson looks to have another competitive car this year. I still think hes a great driver, and he hasnt got many years left in him so its about time that he starts to mix it up at the sharp end again.

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honestly, even though everyone i saying this is not a tests strategy for sonsporing (like running lower wtc) i cant believe it will be that impressive. better than old honda, ok, but that wasn't much difficult at all.

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