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monza gorilla

Wdc To Be Decided On Wins

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That's true. There are all kinds of exciting strategic possibilities. If McLaren are incapable of winning races atm why not use the first few race weekends as test sessions.

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Again, look back at the last 20 years. You will find that, for the WDC, the amount of wins corresponds to the amount of points.

Scenario 1:

Driver A: 18 podiums, 4 wins

Driver B: 8 podiums, 5 wins

That's possible maure, and you don't have to look back 20 years of Championships. When you change a set of rules you must have in mind every possible scenario, all of them if you work with a finite number of cases. That's a principle of what we call law. Can those rules produce an absolutely unfair outcome of the season? Yes, easily. Even if you discard the extreme.

Why did FIA discarded FOTA's proposal? If you introduce such a change in a season Teams should know ASAP because you could need a slightly different car for such a Championship and during pre-season testing you might need to change your goals. FIA should have thought how it could affect team orders and should answer why they want to get rid of sporting values like consistency, regularity, etc.

Scenario 2:

Driver A: win the first 6 races, the champisonship would be nearly finished by may. Are people going to the circuits just to see a bunch of cars driving around. Would you ask Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso or even Massa, Kubica, Vettel, etc. to go there and drive for the second place in the Championship.

You can take it as extreme or mild as you want but those changes are a disgrace for all of us.

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Tell me why this sucks so bad.

You race to win.

Everything else is losing.

This isn't youth soccer (football).

We can't all get a prize.

Will it make the racing better? No.

But is it the right mentality? I think so.

So what about the little fish in the big pond? Okay, so they're accomplishments may not be recognized in a scoring table, but who uses that to measure success anyway? I think we'll all remember if a smaller team has a good run.

And the sponsors really couldn't care less if Bob's Discount F1 Team scores 1 point or 100. It's all about TV time. That's when the exposure is. If the TV coverage shows their car (and it will, they're not going to only show the leader the entire race even if he's the only one getting a point), the sponsors are happy.

I think the problem is just close-mindedness. I agree, there's no reason to change it whatsoever. But, I'm open to at least trying it. Everyone makes a hero out of the guy who goes for wins, checkers or wreckers, and then when we implement a points system that rewards that, all of a sudden it's terrible.

Is this the best system? Of course not. But it's not the worst and honestly, as long as they're racing those cars, I really couldn't care less who is getting what for points. I just want to watch some racing.

The problem is the new system is far worse than the former!

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The problem is the new system is far worse than the former!

It's not just whether it is better, or worse. Personally, I think it's far worse but that's missing the point. We all know that neither of these systems will make a guy give more than what they are giving and no points system will make hungaroring anything different from a borefest. We dependo on rain for that or some other random factor.

The problem with alll this is micromanagement. It ends up making things worse, promoting cheating...oh, excuse me, I mean "being smart and looking for loopholes". It also makes everybody more conservative, as no one really knows how will all this unfold and, ultimately, it always goes in favor of the same people.

We could have had drivers giving 100% with the previous points system. Watch 2006 again and enjoy Schumi becoming once again the merciless warrior he once was. Controversies aside (let's not discuss Monaco again!), the guy gave 200%. Watch Monza 2008. Watch Imola 2005, or Hockenheim 2000.

GIve the drivers good cars and a fighting chance. Stop making up stupid rules out of your arses. BTW, it is notorious that more than 1/3 of the FIA statement was related to forcing the drivers to sign autographs and be available for the press. That's great! We will be able to hear them talking about the borefests in so much more detail now!

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I think this quote from Jenson sums up just how ludicrously inept and unbelievably stupid the new scoring system is:

"For sure the new rule is an incentive to always go for the win," Button said in Jerez on Tuesday, "but could be risky because, after nine races, we could find ourselves with a driver that has already won the title while the guy who's second is only 18 points behind."

If Bernie thinks he's going to get a North American race back on the calendar with those rules, he's more senile than I thought. It's a major turn-off for broadcasters, advertisers, sponsors, and supporters alike. Morons. They didn't even chase up FOTA on their proposal! The fascists at work again. I read Max's explanation of that and it was horses##t!

JB's probably got his best ever shot at the WDC this year and I am sure he would rather go at it under the old rulings. I know I would.

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Abbot & Costello are both getting on a bit. All we have to do is wait.

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The new rules will make drivers and teams go all out for the win more. If you don't think so, you'll eat my hat.

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The new rules will make drivers and teams go all out for the win more. If you don't think so, you'll eat my hat.

Do you rally want a WDC who only won three races?

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Don't worry Sean, I have that quote of his on my signature and I'm sure it will be proven wrong a 100 times during the season. Then we can make him eat his hat XD

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One may laugh at A1GP and IRL now, but with F1 forever shooting at their feet, it won't be long before one of these two series, or even another, becomes the place where the top drivers and teams will want to be. Name one other form of motorsport where most-wins-wins system is used?

I may be the IRL's biggest fan, but with Tony George at the helm, I'll guarantee you that while it may experience growth, not of that variety. I do think IndyCar could gain a little, but they won't be going to Europe until they form a separate IndyCar Europe in 2013, which won't feature Danica, and therefore won't feature many fans, either. FOTA's Super Happy Fun Car will be where it's at. And donkey racing.

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A Facebook petition/protest group has been created at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56613532878 nearly 1000 members already in short space of time opposed to this decision by the FIA

Please if you have Facebook join this group

Pointless, not 1 member of the FIA is gonna even click into that page!

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Alonso hits out at FIA over rule changes

By Pablo Elizalde Wednesday, March 18th 2009, 20:14 GMT

Two-time Formula 1 world champion Fernando Alonso has criticised the FIA's decision to change the rules right ahead of the start of the season.

The governing body announced on Tuesday that, from the season that starts in less than two weeks, the world championship title would go to the driver with the most wins instead of the driver with the most points.

The decision means that a driver with more points than their rivals could still lose the title if he wins less races than the rest.

Alonso believes the constant rules changing is not helping the sport, and he was critical of the FIA for not listening to the teams, the drivers, or the fans.

The Renault driver also admitted he was worried about the future of Formula 1, and is hoping some of the rules can still be changed in the near future.

"I don't understand the need to change the rules of the sport constantly. I think this kind of decisions can only confuse the fans," Alonso said in a statement on his personal website.

"Formula 1 has existed for over 50 years thanks to the teams, the sponsors, the drivers and, above all, the fans from all over the world, and none of them have been able to express their views in front of the FIA.

"I worry, not so much about the decisions that affect the season that's about to start, but, above all, those that affect the future of the competition in the coming years.

"I hope somehow these measures can be reconsidered in the short-term."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73770

What is he scared about? I guess he is feeling that he or his team have no potential to win races this season, maybe he was getting ready to get a lot of podium finish and try to still the WDC based on thoses results but from his words it looks like he is fearing he is not going to make it with this new rule and honestly I like to see him like that. :P

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I think it could be a good try... But Max&Bernie don't give a rat's a##.

I just joined the group but I don't think it's going to make any difference.

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Wouldnt some teams got for it and use 8 engines in the 1st 8-16 races until a driver wins 9 races?

Now you are talking. The problem is the strategies...

But this is a problem that exists already. Consider how the last three seasons have ended. Last, all Hamilton needed was to score some points. Before last, all that was needed was to screw Alonso over. Before before last, all Alonso needed was to score some points. Does that make for better racing?

With this system, there is a possibility that a driver could choose not race following a poor qualifying if race simulations yield nothing for him...

Scenario 1:

Driver A: 18 podiums, 4 wins

Driver B: 8 podiums, 5 wins

That's possible maure, and you don't have to look back 20 years of Championships. When you change a set of rules you must have in mind every possible scenario, all of them if you work with a finite number of cases. That's a principle of what we call law. Can those rules produce an absolutely unfair outcome of the season? Yes, easily. Even if you discard the extreme.

Why did FIA discarded FOTA's proposal? If you introduce such a change in a season Teams should know ASAP because you could need a slightly different car for such a Championship and during pre-season testing you might need to change your goals. FIA should have thought how it could affect team orders and should answer why they want to get rid of sporting values like consistency, regularity, etc.

Scenario 2:

Driver A: win the first 6 races, the champisonship would be nearly finished by may. Are people going to the circuits just to see a bunch of cars driving around. Would you ask Hamilton, Raikkonen and Alonso or even Massa, Kubica, Vettel, etc. to go there and drive for the second place in the Championship.

You can take it as extreme or mild as you want but those changes are a disgrace for all of us.

But you can find the same strange situations with the points system.

Consider a driver that wins 14 straight races and, then, "breaks his legs". Meanwhile another driver finishes 2nd all 18 races and wins the WDC because the points system awards him 144 points over the 140 got by the winner of 14 races. Would that not be a disgrace? I would simply say that what it would be is so unlikely to be irrelevant.

Closer to reality is last season. Say all drivers finished as they did victories-wise. However, imagine Kubica got more points than everyone else and won the WDC. Would that have been a disgrace? Kubica won 1 race while Massa won 6. Does that make sense?

In fact, even the matter of awarding regularity is flawed. Hamilton was less regular than Massa and yet...

I think this quote from Jenson sums up just how ludicrously inept and unbelievably stupid the new scoring system is:

"For sure the new rule is an incentive to always go for the win," Button said in Jerez on Tuesday, "but could be risky because, after nine races, we could find ourselves with a driver that has already won the title while the guy who's second is only 18 points behind."

If Bernie thinks he's going to get a North American race back on the calendar with those rules, he's more senile than I thought. It's a major turn-off for broadcasters, advertisers, sponsors, and supporters alike. Morons. They didn't even chase up FOTA on their proposal! The fascists at work again. I read Max's explanation of that and it was horses##t!

JB's probably got his best ever shot at the WDC this year and I am sure he would rather go at it under the old rulings. I know I would.

If a driver has won the first 9 races straight, is he not deserving of the WDC? After all, with that performance what would that driver not be able to do the following 9 races...

Regarding the second driver being 18 points behind, is it not true that what we've seen in the past is that drivers try to score points and "eat away" at the lead? What this strategy implies is that drivers can settle for certain finishing positions if the points pay-off is deemed worthy. We've seen this happen year after year. Does that make for better racing?

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All good points. However I'd still prefer the scoring system proposed by FOTA than the emphasis on wins. That way if one of the front runners for the WDC is lying 3rd and their main rival is in 1st and impossible to catch, at least there's a reason to try for second. Otherwise you may as well just stop and save your engine. And that's not an impossible scenario- I can well imagine it happening.

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But you can find the same strange situations with the points system.

Consider a driver that wins 14 straight races and, then, "breaks his legs". Meanwhile another driver finishes 2nd all 18 races and wins the WDC because the points system awards him 144 points over the 140 got by the winner of 14 races. Would that not be a disgrace? I would simply say that what it would be is so unlikely to be irrelevant.

No, maure. My scenario was a very mild one and you have taken an extreme, an irrelevant one as you said. Your scenario cannot be taken seriously.

Closer to reality is last season. Say all drivers finished as they did victories-wise. However, imagine Kubica got more points than everyone else and won the WDC. Would that have been a disgrace? Kubica won 1 race while Massa won 6. Does that make sense?
Regarding the second driver being 18 points behind, is it not true that what we've seen in the past is that drivers try to score points and "eat away" at the lead? What this strategy implies is that drivers can settle for certain finishing positions if the points pay-off is deemed worthy. We've seen this happen year after year. Does that make for better racing?

That's why I thought FOTA's proposal was reasonable and acceptable. I thought it could improve the competition and get rid of those shortcomings we all are aware of.

If a driver has won the first 9 races straight, is he not deserving of the WDC? After all, with that performance what would that driver not be able to do the following 9 races...

No, he should wait for the end of the season. Another driver could have won 1 race less or 2 but he might have achieved a 80% podiums. But in that case the Championship would have finished by july with the new rules.

PS.- There is some kind of war of power within F1. Are FIA members going to change competitions like WRC, GP2, WTCC... as they have changed F1?

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A Facebook petition/protest group has been created at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56613532878 nearly 1000 members already in short space of time opposed to this decision by the FIA

Please if you have Facebook join this group

So the FIA reject FOTA's proposals, which were based on fairly extensive market research from across the globe, yet they will listen to a bunch of people on Facebook?

Wise man say, waste of time.

Other than that, welcome :)

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No, maure. My scenario was a very mild one and you have taken an extreme, an irrelevant one as you said. Your scenario cannot be taken seriously.

Of course none of it can be taken seriously, "mild" or not. That's the point.

Ultimately, one could always find ways to undermine any scoring system.

That's why I thought FOTA's proposal was reasonable and acceptable. I thought it could improve the competition and get rid of those shortcomings we all are aware of.

It wouldn't solve the problem of season finishes... which is, by the way, the _one_ of the problems FIA was trying to address...

No, he should wait for the end of the season. Another driver could have won 1 race less or 2 but he might have achieved a 80% podiums. But in that case the Championship would have finished by july with the new rules.

Regardless of the scoring system, a season that starts with a driver winning 9 straight races is finished by July...

Anyway.

There is, of course, a _second_ reason for the change (some would say "first and only")... can you really not guess which kind of team will be benefitted the most by this change in scoring?

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In fact, even the matter of awarding regularity is flawed. Hamilton was less regular than Massa and yet...

....it was he who was sh!tting pretty.

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The biggest problem with all of this is not the impact it will have on racing, or even the results. It is more that FIA:

- Are yet again screwing with the rules with no clear rationale

- Have an end in mind and will continue to screw with the rules/invent penalties to make things fit

- Feel that they can liberally screw with the rules again and again and again

This for me is what the real problem is. Don't kid yourself for one minute that this is the end of it.

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The biggest problem with all of this is not the impact it will have on racing, or even the results. It is more that FIA:

- Are yet again screwing with the rules with no clear rationale

- Have an end in mind and will continue to screw with the rules/invent penalties to make things fit

- Feel that they can liberally screw with the rules again and again and again

This for me is what the real problem is. Don't kid yourself for one minute that this is the end of it.

Yup

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