Jez

Melbourne Gp. Practice, Quali

410 posts in this topic

Flavio Briatore said after the end of qulifying that Renault already have the design of the 'BRAWN diffuser' ready. They might have it developed and tested in China. The R29 could gain up to 40% of downforce.

/fingers crossed

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/fingers crossed

I think, by the time F1 returns back to Europe, the top teams will be back to their form, but I don't know about Mclaren, I hope they get back into shape soon.

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I think, by the time F1 returns back to Europe, the top teams will be back to their form, but I don't know about Mclaren, I hope they get back into shape soon.

With Virgin cash BGP can makes the steps they need to make to keep ahead, I believe. I think they have barely scratched the surface with this car yet.

Edited by Insider

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i cant believe some people here, so modest teams have no right to develope the best car, even without violating the rules.

if mac laren or ferrari are not in the first row you call it "artificial" starting grid

your state of mind is very sad.

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Utter rot! Vettel is over half a second behind Button, stopping 6 laps earlier and 2kgs lighter. At best, BGP's diffuser would give them 3-4/10ths advantage if they were on the same fuel and weight as RBR. The fact that Jens has more fuel on board, is slightly heavier and 6/10ths better shows that the Brawn rear end is probably what most of the other drivers will be looking at this year, irrespective of its dimensions. As far as politics is concerned, it's part and parcel of a sport where

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i cant believe some people here, so modest teams have no right to develope the best car, even without violating the rules.

if mac laren or ferrari are not in the first row you call it "artificial" starting grid

your state of mind is very sad.

That you misconstrue what I said is amusing to me. Please don't stop.

I spent all last season saying how much I hoped the midfield upset the pecking order (check my many posts and please misconstrue them too), so I'm happy to see what has happened. What I'm not about to do is lie to myself as to how this has been accomplished... that would, indeed, make my "state of mind" as sad as yours clearly is.

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With Virgin cash BGP can makes the steps they need to make to keep ahead, I believe. I think they have barely scratched the surface with this car yet.

I agree.

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Barri ain't gonna win, Vettel will jump him off the line and Button will disappear.

I can dream can't I :)

Now the fuel loads are out I'm thinking it's GOT to be one of the BGP cars - either would be great. Just hope they don't race their socks off and end up in the barriers.

That was a great qualifying session. It's fantastic to see McLaren and Ferrari on the back foot.

BGP/Toyota/Williams should be congratulated for their creative thinking.

Another issue that's being overlooked here is this...

BGP started development on their car very VERY early last season. McLaren and Ferrari concentrated on winning last year right to the end. Even ignoring the diffuser argument, BGP would still be well up there. Wait until McLaren and Ferrari copy the diffuser - they'll still be lagging behind BGP by 0.2 of a second.

This is the change we've been waiting for.

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Well, I think it only fair to let you all know that I intend to lodge a complaint to admin about everyone's posts. If your post become worse than mine, I shall withdraw the appeal. But at the current time of writing, whilst the majority of you are more interesting and more funny, I shall be appealing.

Andres, I shan't be complaining about you.

:lol:

people, here you have this table about car weights related to speed. Data are for f1.com. i took 0,25 secons each 10 kg. right?

Parrilla de salida del Gran Premio de Australia 2009

Parrilla de salida del Gran Premio de Australia 2009

pos,driver, team, weight, lap time, lap time(2), real gap

1 Jenson BUTTON.. Brawn GP.. 664,500 86,202 85,840 0,000

2 R.BARRICHELLO. Brawn GP.. 666,500 86,505 86,093 0,253

3 S.VETTEL........... Red bull... 657,000 86,830 86,655 0,816

5 Nico Rosberg...... Williams... 657,000 86,973 86,798 0,959

4 Robert KUBICA... BMW........ 650,000 86,914 86,914 1,075

6 Felipe Massa...... Ferrari...... 654,000 87,033 86,933 1,094

8 Mark Webber...... Red Bull... 662,000 87,246 86,946 1,107

7 Kimi Raikkonen.. Ferrari..... 655,500 87,163 87,026 1,186

BRAWN GP pace is even more astonishing. i was so wrong when i though they were bluffing...

Hi Chaide! Welcome back. I think your post is a really good one. Approximately 0.25s/lap penalty for every 10kg (roughly 3-4 laps of fuel) sounds about right to me. If anyone knows where to get more accurate estimates for each track, with the current regs, I'd be very appreciative.

Looking at your (imho good, if rather shocking) estimates, Brawn's advantage is unlikely to come entirely from the diffuser. Williams and Toyota are a long way further back despite having at least basic Brawn-esque diffusers. And Ferrari are a second/lap back, which is probably too much for the diffuser alone to explain. There must be other innovations on that Brawn, perhaps the front wing, or just the general level of detail and optimisation. And something is pretty sweet on that Red Bull too, besides Vettel's smile.

You're right too about the levelling issue, but this is hardly a surprise because you're arguing with Maure. Had Bernie banned anything on the Brawn, the field would be more even, not less.

The joke.

Well, you see, Button has been sandbagging his entire career and now, finally, he has decided to show us all that he can drive several seconds ahead of everyone else with a heavier car. Just give him a potato and a marker, he will draw wheels on its sides, and run into the sunset leaving all in the dust...

If the diffuser is not such a big deal, drop it. But we all know it must be... even you know this no matter how badly you want to convince yourself the car is built out of magical figs. After all, both Renault and RB were _forbidden_ its use. We will know more about what gains the diffuser yields as other teams develop theirs. We have this piece of news already. Briatore claims that, based on their tests, using BGP's illegal deffuser together with BGP's illegal bottom (not flat, as everyone else's), you could get 30% to 40% (!!!!!!!!!!!!) more downforce.

It is also interesting to see (in your post) the ugly head of fanboyism. You've been touchy on this BGP business all along. Well, live with it. Personally, I can be happy with BGP's performance _and_ not lie to myself about what is bringing it about. I can even take it further and hope that BGP won legally if FIA had allowed other teams to use the same technology that BGP was allowed to use... instead of fabricating a winner by politics and bias...

And speaking of politics. Both Williams and Toyota had been seriously struggling and there were indications that they could leave F1 soon, even before the end of this season. My thinking was that that was the reason why they were also allowed what was denied to others. It turns out that, in the case of Toyota, this was not so as they were betrayed after quali and thrown to the back of the field (we won't get to see that happen to BGP even if the car had two huge jets for rearview mirrors). So, since the Japanese have been fcked over unceremoniously, it makes one wonder if FIA would've fcked over Honda too. In other words, as BGP you get a green light but, as Honda, you will only be allowed to roam about within FIA's spit distance...

Oh come now Maure. Why don't we all have a _laugh_ at that post and forget it ever happened?

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Utter rot! Vettel is over half a second behind Button, stopping 6 laps earlier and 2kgs lighter. At best, BGP's diffuser would give them 3-4/10ths advantage if they were on the same fuel and weight as RBR. The fact that Jens has more fuel on board, is slightly heavier and 6/10ths better shows that the Brawn rear end is probably what most of the other drivers will be looking at this year, irrespective of its dimensions. As far as politics is concerned, it's part and parcel of a sport where

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The sheer amount of contradictions in your post, Murray, made me think I was reading Cavallino.

Case and point, not bad at all to see you defending a team outside of the rules after all your yapping about spec cars...

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The joke.

Well, you see, Button has been sandbagging his entire career and now, finally, he has decided to show us all that he can drive several seconds ahead of everyone else with a heavier car. Just give him a potato and a marker, he will draw wheels on its sides, and run into the sunset leaving all in the dust...

If the diffuser is not such a big deal, drop it. But we all know it must be... even you know this no matter how badly you want to convince yourself the car is built out of magical figs. After all, both Renault and RB were _forbidden_ its use. We will know more about what gains the diffuser yields as other teams develop theirs. We have this piece of news already. Briatore claims that, based on their tests, using BGP's illegal deffuser together with BGP's illegal bottom (not flat, as everyone else's), you could get 30% to 40% (!!!!!!!!!!!!) more downforce.

It is also interesting to see (in your post) the ugly head of fanboyism. You've been touchy on this BGP business all along. Well, live with it. Personally, I can be happy with BGP's performance _and_ not lie to myself about what is bringing it about. I can even take it further and hope that BGP won legally if FIA had allowed other teams to use the same technology that BGP was allowed to use... instead of fabricating a winner by politics and bias...

And speaking of politics. Both Williams and Toyota had been seriously struggling and there were indications that they could leave F1 soon, even before the end of this season. My thinking was that that was the reason why they were also allowed what was denied to others. It turns out that, in the case of Toyota, this was not so as they were betrayed after quali and thrown to the back of the field (we won't get to see that happen to BGP even if the car had two huge jets for rearview mirrors). So, since the Japanese have been fcked over unceremoniously, it makes one wonder if FIA would've fcked over Honda too. In other words, as BGP you get a green light but, as Honda, you will only be allowed to roam about within FIA's spit distance...

+1 agree

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The sheer amount of contradictions in your post, Murray, made me think I was reading Cavallino.

Case and point, not bad at all to see you defending a team outside of the rules after all your yapping about spec cars...

:lol:

OK, sorry if I was a little rude.

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BGP/Toyota/Williams should be congratulated for their creative thinking.

That's how I felt (and posted) until I found out that other teams were forbidden the extact same thing.

Wait until McLaren and Ferrari copy the diffuser - they'll still be lagging behind BGP by 0.2 of a second.

It will be great if this was so.

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:lol:

OK, sorry if I was a little rude.

Nonsense. Rudeness is inconceivable between us, my dear man... woman, child, creature, or whatever else you may actually be.

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That's how I felt (and posted) until I found out that other teams were forbidden the extact same thing.

That's the point. Ross Brawn claimed during pre-season testing that the FIA had checked their desing at some stage and they gave him the ok. But other teams asked too and the answer was different.

Is it possible that the FIA told Toyota and Williams about that kind of design because they were struggling and thinking about leaving like Honda? Could they (Max&Bernie) afford Honda or BGP, Toyota and Williams leaving? Why Bridgestone were told not to bring the best compounds?

At least, if they were illegal, mass damper and movable floors were genuinely illegal. Diffusers are the new aero gremlins that the FIA seems to be happy with.

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There is a correlation between teams fighting for 2008 WC and the start of the development of the new car. McBenz (I took from you Insider) and Ferrari were fighting till the end so they developed 2008 cars till the end of the season too! Reno made the same in order to survive! All other teams cut the develop of 2008 cars by the middle of the season with Honda exception: 2008 car was slower than thew team trucks, so they decided to start the new car in april 2008. So the 2 big teams was caught by the new rules they undersetimated it impact. Nevertheles if FIA ddoesn

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That's the point. Ross Brawn claimed during pre-season testing that the FIA had checked their desing at some stage and they gave him the ok. But other teams asked too and the answer was different.

It's simply impossible (and irresponsible) to ignore this.

Is it possible that the FIA told Toyota and Williams about that kind of design because they were struggling and thinking about leaving like Honda? Could they (Max&Bernie) afford Honda or BGP, Toyota and Williams leaving?

It seems too much... but we are talking about FIA here.

I reckon the simple answer is that teams are pushing the regulation all the time. After all, Renault and RBR had the same idea on their own.

Why Bridgestone were told not to bring the best compounds?

You know, I smiled when I heard this. Have the teams struggle a bit. It's obviously against the nature of F1 but it's naughty.

At least, if they were illegal, mass damper and movable floors were genuinely illegal. Diffusers are the new aero gremlins that the FIA seems to be happy with.

There is a safety issue involved here with the diffusers. This was a matter discussed way back when and which led to today's applied-depending-who regulations over diffusers.

Safety-wise, FIA is moving backwards... budget cuts are out-the-window and the ecological KERRRRRRS! has turned out to be an expensive fraud/con/distraction to throw the top teams off.

It would all much simpler if the regulation was relaxed _for_everyone_. But FIA meddles like a compulsive liar lies, that is, not out of necessity but out of sense of self. Consider that next year's regulation for $30 million teams involves free innovation... pending FIA inspection. What that means for FIA is that some $30 million teams will be allowed some things (say, turbos), but others not, depending on who FIA wants to win.

We desperately need to get rid of Ecclestone and his cronies, Max and Whiting.

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We desperately need to get rid of Ecclestone and his cronies, Max and Whiting.

I think the big teams (Ferrari, McLaren, Renault, BMW... ?) have to seriously threaten Ecclestone with founding a new and decent F1 Championship. N&D F1!

I think it's very good that BGP, Williams, Toyota... are up there but not that way.

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Utter rot! Vettel is over half a second behind Button, stopping 6 laps earlier and 2kgs lighter. At best, BGP's diffuser would give them 3-4/10ths advantage if they were on the same fuel and weight as RBR. The fact that Jens has more fuel on board, is slightly heavier and 6/10ths better shows that the Brawn rear end is probably what most of the other drivers will be looking at this year, irrespective of its dimensions. As far as politics is concerned, it's part and parcel of a sport where

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WOw! Button and Rubens 1,2 victory! Congratulations Brawn!!!!!!!!! :D

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That's how I felt (and posted) until I found out that other teams were forbidden the extact same thing.

You'll be happy to post the drawings then, showing that these forbidden things were exactly the same. Thought not.

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You'll be happy to post the drawings then, showing that these forbidden things were exactly the same. Thought not.

It would've been much easier for you to claim that both Briatore and Mateschitz are pathological liars for saying so.

But, as always, I remain in your debt for the amusment it gives me to see that you are forced to miscontrue what I say. Such shortcomings are priceless. After all, it's plainly evident that what was meant was that the exact same _idea_ was presented and not the exact same diffuser.

BTW, good to see you back at play. The fun we are going to have.

Edited by maure

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