Diffuser Saga Over Then!!!!

[SeanOg 0]

I haven't posted for a loooooonnnngggggggg time, but felt obliged as my signature now rings true!!!!

OK, as far as I can see the outcome of the hearing in a few weeks will decide whether Brawn, Toyota and Williams are smarter than the rest or they bent the rules (although already have been agreed as legal) too far, but from Sundays fantastic race, had Vettel and Kubica (both from teams who have been instrumental in opening the whole diffuser can of worms) not been playing bumper cars they may have won the race, driving cars without the questionable diffusers, had this been the case then surely they would have themselves proved that there was no advantage to be gained as they would have outperformed the Brawn cars on the race track!!!!!

I believe that these teams have got it right and there is a lot of sour grapes out there.

This is going to be a great season so lets not start of under a cloud, lets see if these big teams can catch up and surely this is a brilliant ad for new teams showing that you can do it!!!

[SeanOg 0]

Just found this after posting

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5121338,00.html

[maure 1]

I suppose it has not entered your mind that, without the diffuser, the BGP could be a lemon or, simply, much slower.

Mind not. Many folks around here will be delighted to seek refuge in your sound argument.

Good stuff. Keep it coming.

[Max Mosley 2]

Perhaps Red Bull can find the 0.5-0.8s/lap that they need to challenge Brawn in large part from that redesign.

[freaky2 1]

I hope they do, because, what happens if the redesign leaves them further back? No, no.

[Max Mosley 2]

McLaren need a few teams up there to take points off Ferrari for at least 6 races so Brawn, Red Bull et al. can save Hamilton's season. Would be best if Red Bull also take points away from Jenson, probably. Of course I'm slightly torn because apart from Lewis I want Jenson to win.

[Jean Todt 4]

McLaren need a few teams up there to take points off Ferrari for at least 6 races so Brawn, Red Bull et al. can save Hamilton's season. Would be best if Red Bull also take points away from Jenson, probably. Of course I'm slightly torn because apart from Lewis I want Jenson to win.

You have to keep in mind that Honda had built the foundations for this season which the Brawns are enjoying, they got a big boost after getting a superb engine from Mercedes, which Barichello claims to be atleast 45bhp or hp more than Honda. And obviously Brawn is a winner, even if Micheal is there in the Ferrari pit wall, he is not as good as Brawn to call cars to pit in or work out master strategy. Mclaren and Renault really lack pace, but we still don't know how fast is Ferrari, Kimi could have finished on podium, BMW could have won, Williams too could have been on podium. Mclaren will have a huge ladder to climb. They were lucky in Australia. I hope they could start winning once they get to Europe, but others won't stop trying either. I don't think Lewis or Kova have a decent shot on title this year. In a way its good for the sport to have different winners.

[Max Mosley 2]

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but this season is very unusual. I think McLaren will catch up with everyone else, it's just a race against time to do it, without losing too many points in the process. They could be winning races by mid-season so they need Brawn and others to keep Ferrari back as much as possible until then. Wet races in Malaysia and China, a few reliability problems for Ferrari and consistently fast Brawns, Red Bulls and BMWs could mean McLaren still have a chance by the end of the year. It could be a classic season!

[SeanOg 0]

I suppose it has not entered your mind that, without the diffuser, the BGP could be a lemon or, simply, much slower.

Mind not. Many folks around here will be delighted to seek refuge in your sound argument.

Good stuff. Keep it coming.

Thanks Maure for your encouragement, I think there will be many talking points this season but for me it feels like F1 has gone back to good old engineering where smart people not slick (pardon the pun) people will make the difference!

[maure 1]

Thanks Maure for your encouragement, I think there will be many talking points this season but for me it feels like F1 has gone back to good old engineering where smart people not slick (pardon the pun) people will make the difference!

I don't know about "good old engineering". I suppose it depends how far back you go...

Still, I also felt quite happy when the diffuser business came up as explanation for BGP's pace (check my old posts). Naturally, I was prudent as to whether or not the pace was real (also in my old posts).

Unfortunately, I found out that at least two teams had been forbidden to develop what BGP, Wiliams, and Toyota were allowed. This fact changes absolutely everything.

To make matters worse, Brawn is head of FOTA's technical commission. His role is to liaison with FIA in order to clarify technical regulations to the teams. It is easy to see that this makes Brawn look terribly bad and blatantly dishonest for widthholding vital information that put his team ahead of most of the cars in the field. If one could argue that he didn't have an ethical duty to disclose what he fully knew was unfair advantage, one would still have to agree that, in the least, Brawn should have resign his position. Instead, he continue in his post, thus making sure noone else could inform other teams... who were kept in the dark until it was too late.

Something that could've been great has, instead, been severely compromised. It's basically the difference between a master chef preparing two deliciously identical meals to then serve one in a dish and another inside a bag full of excrement. No matter how delectable, noone in their right mind would touch the second meal.

Will the diffusers and modified floors be declared illegal? Quite unlikely. The creators of the show have too much invested on this plot twist. Modifications take weeks, if not months. To declare them illegal means having three teams drop out of the show for several races. And, of course, to declare them legal means that the pursued objectives will, by then, be accomplished. Or not. The screenwriters for the F1 TV show are not know for their finesse and we may still get to see that, even after developing their own diffusers, some teams are still not allowed to use them.

You have to keep in mind that Honda had built the foundations for this season which the Brawns are enjoying, they got a big boost after getting a superb engine from Mercedes, which Barichello claims to be atleast 45bhp or hp more than Honda. And obviously Brawn is a winner, even if Micheal is there in the Ferrari pit wall, he is not as good as Brawn to call cars to pit in or work out master strategy. Mclaren and Renault really lack pace, but we still don't know how fast is Ferrari, Kimi could have finished on podium, BMW could have won, Williams too could have been on podium. Mclaren will have a huge ladder to climb. They were lucky in Australia. I hope they could start winning once they get to Europe, but others won't stop trying either. I don't think Lewis or Kova have a decent shot on title this year. In a way its good for the sport to have different winners.

Trulli started the race from the back of the field, from the pits, in fact. He raced himself to a podium third. If this is not a historical record, it cannot be far off.

But that you for forget to mention this feat is the intention of the sub-plot that Toyota has found itself in.

It's quite amusing... and, no, don't take this personally. I have no favorites.

[freaky2 1]

The thing is, Maure, that we don't know if the Renault and RBR had a similar diffuser, we only have their word for it. And, why in hell did they ask? Go race with it and take it off when you hear a complaint! Too nice for their own good!

Anyway, even if they were royally screwed by the FIA, which I don't doubt is perfectly possible, you can't say that Brawn's pace is only the diffuser.

About the floors of the cars, sorry, on that matter I'm completely with the teams. But I don't know details, so if you provide them I might change my mind. But if it's the business about "have to appear" instead of "have to be" that was on the regulations, then for me they are perfectly fine "appearing" to have no holes in them.

Bottom line: you can't expect no problems at the start of a season, really. The whole bunch of complaints for illegal bits all appear come Melbourne so... they'll live through it, as always.

[maure 1]

Sure. Renault and RBR might have lied about everything... but it makes no sense as it accomplishes nothing and it is stupid to think they would get away with it. To lie without gain, just for the sake of lying, is the work of fools. There are no fools in F1... even if some appear so and others are made to look that way. All these guys are out for something (I'm talking about management here and I'm not accounting for level of competence because that is another matter).

Now. Briatore has also said that the reason why BGP, Williams, and Toyota got away with it is because these teams lied/tricked Whiting. There are interesting rumors out there regarding specifics on how this alledged fraud was actually accomplished, but I won't get into them because exculpating FIA could be a political move on Briatore's part. There is something to gain there. We'll see.

[dribbler 6]

I haven't posted for a loooooonnnngggggggg time, but felt obliged as my signature now rings true!!!!

How incredibly intuitive.

[mikathegreat2 2]

Lets put this BGP diffusersteric argument to rest, Hamilton finished 3rd (thanks to more penalties & a silly crash which BTW was Kubi's fault abbas!!!) with a normal diffuser!!!

[Rainmaster 7]

I haven't posted for a loooooonnnngggggggg time, but felt obliged as my signature now rings true!!!!

OK, as far as I can see the outcome of the hearing in a few weeks will decide whether Brawn, Toyota and Williams are smarter than the rest or they bent the rules (although already have been agreed as legal) too far, but from Sundays fantastic race, had Vettel and Kubica (both from teams who have been instrumental in opening the whole diffuser can of worms) not been playing bumper cars they may have won the race, driving cars without the questionable diffusers, had this been the case then surely they would have themselves proved that there was no advantage to be gained as they would have outperformed the Brawn cars on the race track!!!!!

I believe that these teams have got it right and there is a lot of sour grapes out there.

This is going to be a great season so lets not start of under a cloud, lets see if these big teams can catch up and surely this is a brilliant ad for new teams showing that you can do it!!!

Welcome back.

I agree, aside from the part about new teams: it doesn't say anything for "new" teams, Brawn are only new in name, the car was developed with the considerable time, money and resources of a large manufacturer, that's Honda btw. I think the diffusers will be ruled legal, I would be very surprised if it went the opposite way, not good for the sport's bosses.

I hope they do, because, what happens if the redesign leaves them further back? No, no.

Indeedy. Nice sig!

You have to keep in mind that Honda had built the foundations for this season which the Brawns are enjoying, they got a big boost after getting a superb engine from Mercedes, which Barichello claims to be atleast 45bhp or hp more than Honda. And obviously Brawn is a winner, even if Micheal is there in the Ferrari pit wall, he is not as good as Brawn to call cars to pit in or work out master strategy. Mclaren and Renault really lack pace, but we still don't know how fast is Ferrari, Kimi could have finished on podium, BMW could have won, Williams too could have been on podium. Mclaren will have a huge ladder to climb. They were lucky in Australia. I hope they could start winning once they get to Europe, but others won't stop trying either. I don't think Lewis or Kova have a decent shot on title this year. In a way its good for the sport to have different winners.

Agree.

How incredibly intuitive.

[Jean Todt 4]

Trulli started the race from the back of the field, from the pits, in fact. He raced himself to a podium third. If this is not a historical record, it cannot be far off.

But that you for forget to mention this feat is the intention of the sub-plot that Toyota has found itself in.

It's quite amusing... and, no, don't take this personally. I have no favorites.

Note that I was replying to Muzza's post, where he said if teams like Brawn can take away points from Ferrari Mclaren could catch up.

I am sure Button didn't have to show the full potential of Brawn and I am quite sure Barichello showed it. It does not mean I feel or claim Toyota have not done their job.

[freaky2 1]

Indeedy. Nice sig!

Thanks very much! All credit for it is varda's

[Jean Todt 4]

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but this season is very unusual. I think McLaren will catch up with everyone else, it's just a race against time to do it, without losing too many points in the process. They could be winning races by mid-season so they need Brawn and others to keep Ferrari back as much as possible until then. Wet races in Malaysia and China, a few reliability problems for Ferrari and consistently fast Brawns, Red Bulls and BMWs could mean McLaren still have a chance by the end of the year. It could be a classic season!

Thats what we all thought during 2004 and 2006.

But it doesn't mean I think they will not be able to win the title, all I am saying is that it could be a lot harder than last two seasons.

[Max Mosley 2]

Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that then!

[5P33D3V1L 0]

Sure. Renault and RBR might have lied about everything... but it makes no sense as it accomplishes nothing and it is stupid to think they would get away with it. To lie without gain, just for the sake of lying, is the work of fools. There are no fools in F1... even if some appear so and others are made to look that way. All these guys are out for something (I'm talking about management here and I'm not accounting for level of competence because that is another matter).

Now. Briatore has also said that the reason why BGP, Williams, and Toyota got away with it is because these teams lied/tricked Whiting. There are interesting rumors out there regarding specifics on how this alledged fraud was actually accomplished, but I won't get into them because exculpating FIA could be a political move on Briatore's part. There is something to gain there. We'll see.

Maure, I cant help but feel you've got it out for Brawn GP.

I simply believe they did the best job in designing a car for 2009 compared to all the other teams, with aid from a Mercedes engine. Plus with Jenson and Rubens at the wheel with Brawn running the show, I truely believe they have a good chance to win the championship this season. This team has underachieved for so long, so its about time they've designed a car like this.

They may have "lied/tricked" Whiting but to be honest, Red Bull and Renault should of done the same.

Plus i dont believe all of Brawns pace is down to that diffuser. With a heavier fuel load compared to others they were comfortably ahead. Without the diffuser they would probably be just behind BMW RBR and ahead of Ferrari. Plus Jensons smooth driving style really suits this years regulations and tyres.

So I believe Alonso may struggle with his understeery/aggressive driving style.

[AleHop 0]

Now he calls him a traitor

Other of the matters that more enervates Briatore is that it was precisely Brawn the technician designated by the FOTA to interpret the new regulation of the FIA. Flavio supports, as tell him his engineers, that Brawn said that the diffusers were not fitting in the interpretation of the rules, that it was all very clear and that they would be equal for all. Now he calls him a traitor.

Also it is odd how they tell that he managed to get through the homologation of the pieces of the diffuser before the FIA. They say that he separately brought three elements to them, to try to confuse on the form and final function that they would have. As if a dismantled gun passes the airport control in three parts and once inside it is already possible to mount and to kidnap the plane. Certainly he is a teacher of the design and the management, but he handles also other topics skillfully.

http://www.marca.com/2009/03/30/motor/form...1238423746.html

[monza gorilla 1]

In other words, he thought of a way and they didn't. And now Flavio is crying. Boo hoo. What a shame.

[The Rumble Strip 0]

Agreed.

[AleHop 0]

In other words, he thought of a way and they didn't.

If you believe Briatore, Brawn, as a FOTA technical representative, said there was no way. But what I cannot understand is why the FIA didn't answer properly when some teams asked them about the diffuser before the start of the season. Let's see what happens in Paris.

Briatore chairs FOTA's commercial aspect, while Brawn is in charge of technical matters.

Toyota is also tangled up in the diffuser saga, as one of the teams being protested against, and its president John Howett is the FOTA vice-chairman.

"Can I put something in your mind?" Bernie told the Times newspaper prior to the season opener last week.

"Ross Brawn is the guy that runs the teams' technical committee and probably knows what's going to happen before other people, or is in a position to guide things. There's a massive conflict of interest," the Briton said.

As Pablo said, the top teams should sit up and think.

[The Rumble Strip 0]

It is the race stewards who make the legal decision, not the FIA.