King_Alonso786

Alonso's Sensational Start To The Malaysian Grand Prix

259 posts in this topic

Well, not just potential. Kimi _is_ better than Massa. His record shows it.

Yes, but as Russ mentions below, not by that much, given the expectations we all had in Kimi vs Massa.

His lows are way too low... for him. Compare them to other drivers' lows and the matter changes.

Again, I agree. That is why I mention that I rate him as an above average driver and I talk above his potential. But when people starts comparing him against Senna, or Schumi...well...his lows are way too low.

But the different kind of expectations is one of the reasons why Kimi is the man.

You may say so, yes.

Anyway. The thing is that I can understand your position. F1 is essentially a sprint race but it is quite, quite difficult to see it as such nowadays. Perhaps, then, I'd better say that F1 _should_ be a sprint race where every item in the car is designed to give its maximum to, then, fall apart come the flag. I view F1 like that and Kimi is the fastest guy, the guy that can get that extra tenth where no one else can. You could say that, for me, Kimi is the ultimate piece that, together with similar extreme engineering, will produce the outmost possible speed under the circumstances of a track...

Actually, I like F1 to be not just a sprint race but more like it is now (and as, somehow, it has always been): a mix of raw speed with deep strategy involved. . That is why I am against the medals, that is why I am against anything that takes away the strategy depth of F1, even if it makes F1 look boring sometimes. A raw speed race will be boring for me as the guy with the fastest car will just jump forward and from then it's just a matter of seeing how many cars he can lap. Schumi in 2002, anyone?

As for the car to give its maximun and then fall apart come the flag, that reminded me of 2005 (or maybe it was 2006?) when Alonso's Renault fell to pieces after crossing the flag in the last race, his engine finally giving up.

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Yes, but as Russ mentions below, not by that much, given the expectations we all had in Kimi vs Massa.

You must remember, Kimi joined a teammate who had already been around for a year and seemingly also under the "able" guidance of Schumi. Agreed 2008 was lackluster but we know that the development of the car was not in tune with Kimi's driving style which meant he always qualified too low down the order and his race was compromised. Well Kimi himself has agreed that the 2009 car suits him better, so lets see...

Again, I agree. That is why I mention that I rate him as an above average driver and I talk above his potential. But when people starts comparing him against Senna, or Schumi...well...his lows are way too low.

Kimi din't have a team built around him, you might bring it down to the fact that he does not involve himself too much...

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Yes, Kimi is better than Massa, who I still don't rate very highly, but I don't see that Kimi has much scope for improvement (he has a great natural talent on which he leans heavily) whereas Massa is like a ball of clay which can be moulded into something more. He'll never be as good as Kimi but he can close the gap. Hill was similar. Worthy and capable of improvement by application even if not possessed of great talent.

I agree with your view of the definition of the race. Very Chapmanesque.

That "ball of clay" bit made me laugh. Feeling godly today, ain't we...

If only one of your hostiles were to prance by and DEMAND that you provide absolute proof of your pottery skills...

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Actually, I like F1 to be not just a sprint race but more like it is now (and as, somehow, it has always been): a mix of raw speed with deep strategy involved. . That is why I am against the medals, that is why I am against anything that takes away the strategy depth of F1, even if it makes F1 look boring sometimes. A raw speed race will be boring for me as the guy with the fastest car will just jump forward and from then it's just a matter of seeing how many cars he can lap. Schumi in 2002, anyone?

As for the car to give its maximun and then fall apart come the flag, that reminded me of 2005 (or maybe it was 2006?) when Alonso's Renault fell to pieces after crossing the flag in the last race, his engine finally giving up.

Hold on, now. Strategy and sprint races are not enemies. It has to do with the ultimate objective of racing. You need strategies and sound ones to launch an F1 car to its maximum for a few hundred kilometers. I don't understand the excuses that pull F1 is another direction.

F1 is about getting there as fast as possible through a track that is neither straight nor an oval. As a matter of fact, I would design tracks without a single straight. There should be no rest for the car or driver. It's a sprint. It's a holding your breath from pole to flag. It's about getting every inch out of every breaking zone, time and again. It's about getting every tenth out of every curve and then some. It's about that... for me. Don't care about passings, don't care about "green" sht fuels, don't care about tyres that yield less performance. It's about 60 laps of furious, savage, beyond-belief motor racing...

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I still remember the 2005 season with Mclaren when he would have a engine or gearbox failure every third race which would award him a ten grid penalty and still manage to push a heavy car to 2 or 3rd in the grid and then drive his icy cold balls off on race day. I feel he could have gone on to greater things with Mclaren and to me one of the greatest rivalries would have been Kimi facing off with Hamilton within Mclaren.

I tend to think the 2005 McLaren was just (even) quicker than we all thought, although unreliable. Had Kimi stayed at McLaren, Lewis would likely have beaten him more easily than he beat Alonso but Kimi would have taken it better. :P

That said, I agree completely that Kimi has a new chance this year. Perhaps his woes have been related to the rule changes in recent years. Now he has a fresh start and we should watch closely how he goes this season. So far it doesn't look promising, which is what leads to me to think he was simply over-rated.

Ahhh...time to play as devil's advocate for a little while.

First things first: I think Kimi is fast. I think Kimi is an above average driver. I think sometimes his decontract

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Fair enough. But you forgot to say that while he drove for McLaren and Ferrari, his teammates didn't win any WDC's, either because the cars suck (for all) or simply because they were not better than him.

And 2007 was a great season for him. As I said, it was Kimi's first year with Ferrari and he had to deal with many changes. Still, he overcame a "poor" first half of the season and drove a brilliant second part. He stormed away when all others were falling apart.

As I said, Kimi is a great driver, but him being a WDC in 2007 had more to do with McLaren

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I tend to think the 2005 McLaren was just (even) quicker than we all thought, although unreliable. Had Kimi stayed at McLaren, Lewis would likely have beaten him more easily than he beat Alonso but Kimi would have taken it better. :P

That said, I agree completely that Kimi has a new chance this year. Perhaps his woes have been related to the rule changes in recent years. Now he has a fresh start and we should watch closely how he goes this season. So far it doesn't look promising, which is what leads to me to think he was simply over-rated.

Devil's advocate? You should try arguing something a little more challenging than that! :lol:

I disagree with you Max. Lewis would have spent a season racing outside F1, and would have been called for Testing now and then if Kimi were to stay back. Lewis replaced Kimi, Alonso replaced Monty.

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I disagree with you Max. Lewis would have spent a season racing outside F1, and would have been called for Testing now and then if Kimi were to stay back. Lewis replaced Kimi, Alonso replaced Monty.

And now you are disagreeing with yourself? You need to get the telephone number of Maure's shrink... :D

When is Charlie Whiting going to join the party? :D

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And now you are disagreeing with yourself? You need to get the telephone number of Maure's shrink... :D

When is Charlie Whiting going to join the party? :D

Heard Charlie will be bringing lil Lewis for Max to spank after party....

Edited by Bernie Ecclestone

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I tend to think the 2005 McLaren was just (even) quicker than we all thought, although unreliable. Had Kimi stayed at McLaren, Lewis would likely have beaten him more easily than he beat Alonso but Kimi would have taken it better. :P

The delusion. Well, there goes a lewisteric... to yet another hearing.

Bonk.

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As I said, Kimi is a great driver, but him being a WDC in 2007 had more to do with McLaren

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I disagree with you Max. Lewis would have spent a season racing outside F1, and would have been called for Testing now and then if Kimi were to stay back. Lewis replaced Kimi, Alonso replaced Monty.

You are showing Meanioni's symptoms. You've got full-blown schizophrenia. Go tell everyone else inside your head.

I won't chuckle. I promise (not).

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Kimi had to be there to take it. And, of course, when he did, he did it with flying colors. While Hamilton sank and Alonso could do no better, Kimi thrived.

The thing is that I can understand where you are coming from. That champioinship was stolen from Alonso. But that speaks poorly of Hamilton and RD, not of Kimi. There is a significant difference.

Yes, indeed he was there and he did an excellent 2nd half. As I said Kimi is an outstanding talent, but to tell you the truth (my truth ;) ) I think Mclaren atmosphere got the best out of Kimi

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Yes, indeed he was there and he did an excellent 2nd half. As I said Kimi is an outstanding talent, but to tell you the truth (my truth ;) ) I think Mclaren atmosphere got the best out of Kimi

I would have to agree with that, Kimi and the silver arrows where a brilliant combination really. What i really like is the fact that he seems quite optimistic about their chances in shanghai, at least for a change he is speaking.

This thread is brilliant, it started out as a waste of web space but now we seem to be talking some sense :naughty:

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Yes, indeed he was there and he did an excellent 2nd half. As I said Kimi is an outstanding talent, but to tell you the truth (my truth ;) ) I think Mclaren atmosphere got the best out of Kimi

Yep. Wasted years in some ways. It was a btch to see Alonso taking down Schumacher, I won't deny it. That should've been Kimi's privilege.

Oh, well...

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I would have to agree with that, Kimi and the silver arrows where a brilliant combination really. What i really like is the fact that he seems quite optimistic about their chances in shanghai, at least for a change he is speaking.

This thread is brilliant, it started out as a waste of web space but now we seem to be talking some sense :naughty:

There is something to that, isn't there...

Funny man, Kimi.

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Yep. Wasted years in some ways. It was a btch to see Alonso taking down Schumacher, I won't deny it. That should've been Kimi's privilege.

Oh, well...

How come everybody want their favorite drivers to join a "good" and "winning" team and keep whining about how their talent is wasted currently, yet when they accomplish something, suddenly the driver is the mastermind?

Ferrari was nowhere in 2005, how was MS "taken down"? Weren't you watching back then? Yet he finished third and it was an accomplishment.

The Renault car had nothing to do with Alonso's success? He was driving last year and so did Kimi.

Why didn't they become world champions if it's so written in their genes to always be one and they are (as drivers) such deciding factors?

If MS had a car good enough to construct a constant WC campaign and not just the second half, he would have won in 2006.

Ferrari in 2006 was trying to recover the awful previous year and bounced back spectacularly, Renault were the champions and continued their good form.

Why do you focus on the drivers?

There are physical limitations to a car's speed you know.

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Symptoms? Well, you know I have this rash on my....

Tell dribbler. He is into coprophilia now but should be delighted to inspect your...

Edited by maure

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How come everybody want their favorite drivers to join a "good" and "winning" team and keep whining about how their talent is wasted currently, yet when they accomplish something, suddenly the driver is the mastermind?

Ferrari was nowhere in 2005, how was MS "taken down"? Weren't you watching back then? Yet he finished third and it was an accomplishment.

The Renault car had nothing to do with Alonso's success? He was driving last year and so did Kimi.

Why didn't they become world champions if it's so written in their genes to always be one and they are (as drivers) such deciding factors?

If MS had a car good enough to construct a constant WC campaign and not just the second half, he would have won in 2006.

Ferrari in 2006 was trying to recover the awful previous year and bounced back spectacularly, Renault were the champions and continued their good form.

Why do you focus on the drivers?

There are physical limitations to a car's speed you know.

Down boy.

Alonso beat Schumacher in 2006. Weren't you watching back then? That was a championship that MS could've won. I was there, side of the track, when his car broke down in Suzuka. Had that no happened, MS would probably have another title to his name. His talent was not wasted in 2006.

However, MS did have a shtty car in 2005. His talent was wasted that season, imo.

By far, most drivers have cars that suck (comparatively speaking). Some always, others at times. And, of course, there are cases when a car is wasted on a driver (see Fisi, for instance, or Massa).

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Down boy.

Alonso beat Schumacher in 2006. Weren't you watching back then? That was a championship that MS could've won. I was there, side of the track, when his car broke down in Suzuka. Had that no happened, MS would probably have another title to his name. His talent was not wasted in 2006.

However, MS did have a shtty car in 2005. His talent was wasted that season, imo.

By far, most drivers have cars that suck (comparatively speaking). Some always, others at times. And, of course, there are cases when a car is wasted on a driver (see Fisi, for instance, or Massa).

Your boy is the one who should stay down because sometimes it starts to type...

I believe you are more knowledgeable than what you present yourself here!

So if Button wins this year's championship, we 'll all get to say he torn Hamilton apart in 2009!

That sounds like fun!

(And stupid)!

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Your boy is the one who should stay down because sometimes it starts to type...

I believe you are more knowledgeable than what you present yourself here!

So if Button wins this year's championship, we 'll all get to say he torn Hamilton apart in 2009!

That sounds like fun!

(And stupid)!

You are misconstruing what I'm saying and getting yourself exited. This is making me smile. I don't know if I should encourage you or correct you... hmmm.

Let's see. What is it exactly that upset you? That I said that MS could've won in 2006? That MS had the car to do so but failed? That I said that his chances were gone because of engine failure?

The Button/Hamilton thing is too tantrum like. If Hamilton had the car to win and Button beat him then, obviously, Button would've beat him. Take him apart? Your words. Take him down? Nope... because Hamilton has won only one championship and by luck. But, let's say, Hamilton dominates some day (as MS did) and eventually some driver breaks that trend. Well, in that situation, yes, of course, that driver will have taking him down... taking him down from winning everything in sight year after year when he had the car to do so... which, again, was MS in 2006. A winning car but no win. Who won? Alonso. Bitter? Your problem. Personally, and as I've said, I would've much prefered that it was Kimi who took MS down...

Simple stuff.

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And, btw, I think MS's exit from Ferrari was a shame. If he had sent Montezemolo to fck himself and continued, MS would've gotten back his mojo and he would still be the man to beat.

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You are misconstruing what I'm saying and getting yourself exited. This is making me smile. I don't know if I should encourage you or correct you... hmmm.

Let's see. What is it exactly that upset you? That I said that MS could've won in 2006? That MS had the car to do so but failed? That I said that his chances were gone because of engine failure?

The Button/Hamilton thing is too tantrum like. If Hamilton had the car to win and Button beat him then, obviously, Button would've beat him. Take him apart? Your words. Take him down? Nope... because Hamilton has won only one championship and by luck. But, let's say, Hamilton dominates some day (as MS did) and eventually some driver breaks that trend. Well, in that situation, yes, of course, that driver will have taking him down... taking him down from winning everything in sight year after year when he had the car to do so... which, again, was MS in 2006. A winning car but no win. Who won? Alonso. Bitter? Your problem. Personally, and as I've said, I would've much prefered that it was Kimi who took MS down...

Simple stuff.

First of all, I didn't get excited or upset, or bitter.

Glad I could make you smile though, which means you tend to take it personally than read the argument. That could blur your perception..

Anyway, I responded to the " Alonso took MS down and I wish my boy had taken him down" comment of yours, not anything else!

The whole reigning/domination thing is not just a one-man achievement. So how can one man be taken down in a team sport? Sure the driver has the final say in success or failure, but there is only so much they can do.

If we take into account the last seasons only, what was FA doing in 2007, 2008? What was Kimi doing last year?

They both threw away championships, they (supposedly) could win. So?

I 'm willing to bet ALL the champions in every single sport/occupation or whatever on this planet have lost their crown at some point...

If someone thinks this a reason to gloat is fine by me!

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