PeakRPM

Diffuser Question... Change Of Results

134 posts in this topic

If the diffuser guys are deemed to be illegal.

Would Australia's & Malaysia's result be changed to reflect the order of legal cars that finished.

ie. MAL... Would be HED / WEB /HAM ?

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Yes it should....and not to mention FIA being on unstable ground with how heavy handed they may be with "further sanctions" over McLaren. If Macca is excluded from the championship...should Williams, Brawn and Toyota be banned for the next two years? One is an on-the-spot attempt at getting points, the other around a years worth of development and testing of an illegal part to gain an adavantage.

If FIA intends punishing McLaren, expect the diffusers to be deemed legal. To punish McLaren by exclusion from the championship sets a precedent so low, that drivers will get banned for half a season for jumping the lights.

Watch this space, as they say.

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If the diffuser guys are deemed to be illegal.

Would Australia's & Malaysia's result be changed to reflect the order of legal cars that finished.

ie. MAL... Would be HED / WEB /HAM ?

No. Results would stay as they are. First, because it would be unfair to change them since this is a problem manufactured by FIA. Second, it is what has been done in the past. Remember the mass damper business.

The only "maybe" could come if it turns out to be true the rumors that claim Whiting was lied to by BGP, Toyota, and Williams to pass the diffusers off as legal. But, even then, BGP is the new mirage (like there were others in seasons past, btw) and too many have bought into it. So quite unlikely even if.

As all teams expect, anyway, the diffusers will not be declared illegal because it would destroy BGP. One thing is to force top teams to develop for weeks/months, another is to throw 3 teams out of the competition until they get it right.

The plot twist here is that the diffusers might be declared partially legal, demanding eye-candy changes to BGP, Toyota, and Williams while further fcking over the rest of the field. We'll see. I wouldn't be surprised at any outcome... no matter how bias or absurd.

In situations involving FIA, esxpecting the worst is the safest position. Or, in other words, the surprise would be if they did the right thing.

Edited by maure

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As Maure says, it's unlikely that results will be changed if the diffusers are ruled illegal. Haven't heard the rumours you mention though. Do you have a source?

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As Maure says, it's unlikely that results will be changed if the diffusers are ruled illegal. Haven't heard the rumours you mention though. Do you have a source?

If you are referring to the rumors regarding the specifics of how BGP, Williams, and Toyota _allegedly_ tricked Whiting, I don't have a source. I have several...

Search and you will find.

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I assume you're referring to the apocryphal story of the diffuser never being shown in it's entirety. Good word, apocryphal. Does what it says on the tin.

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No. Results would stay as they are. First, because it would be unfair to change them since this is a problem manufactured by FIA. Second, it is what has been done in the past. Remember the mass damper business.

What? The FIA has to be consistent now? Surely not.

The plot twist here is that the diffusers might be declared partially legal, demanding eye-candy changes to BGP, Toyota, and Williams while further fcking over the rest of the field. We'll see. I wouldn't be surprised at any outcome... no matter how bias or absurd.

In situations involving FIA, esxpecting the worst is the safest position. Or, in other words, the surprise would be if they did the right thing.

Ah - there's our answer - and neither do you aparently.

Actaully I agree. Who knows what they'll decide. Their own complicity in causing this debacle is fairly obvious, so the FIA will be more worried about getting their own asses out of trouble than doing right by any of the teams. They'll spin it, point fingers and start 'we were deceived' arguments whenever necessary to aportion blame elsewhere.

If they really did tell RedBull and others 'we won't react well to that diffuser idea' and then went and allowed Brawn/Toyota/Williams to go with their apparently identical reading of the rules, then it's really the FIA's own fault.

If they really weren't shown the full diffuser by all 3 teams (I find that hard to believe), then they shouldn't be so ****ing dumb.

Fine the FIA and hand the money out to the teams who get shafted the most.

If you are referring to the rumors regarding the specifics of how BGP, Williams, and Toyota _allegedly_ tricked Whiting, I don't have a source. I have several...

Search and you will find.

That's a 'no' then.

Edited by adamstrags

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I assume you're referring to the apocryphal story of the diffuser never being shown in it's entirety. Good word, apocryphal. Does what it says on the tin.

That would make it a rumor which is what I said it is... but no, that's not what I'm talking about.

Interesting thought, yours, nonetheless.

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What? The FIA has to be consistent now? Surely not.

Ah - there's our answer - and neither do you aparently.

Actaully I agree. Who knows what they'll decide. Their own complicity in causing this debacle is fairly obvious, so the FIA will be more worried about getting their own asses out of trouble than doing right by any of the teams. They'll spin it, point fingers and start 'we were deceived' arguments whenever necessary to aportion blame elsewhere.

If they really did tell RedBull and others 'we won't react well to that diffuser idea' and then went and allowed Brawn/Toyota/Williams to go with their apparently identical reading of the rules, then it's really the FIA's own fault.

If they really weren't shown the full diffuser by all 3 teams (I find that hard to believe), then they shouldn't be so ****ing dumb.

Fine the FIA and hand the money out to the teams who get shafted the most.

There is your answer... you disagree but agree but disagree but agree.

I smile.

That's a 'no' then.

You posted too fast, eager beaver. Even Monza gave you a rumor... guess you won't be asking for his "sources".

The joke.

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There is your answer... you disagree but agree but disagree but agree.

I smile.

Understanding irony's never been your strong suit has it.

First to Monza

That would make it a rumor which is what I said it is... but no, that's not what I'm talking about.

Then to me

You posted too fast, eager beaver. Even Monza gave you a rumor... guess you won't be asking for his "sources".

The joke.

Indeed - you are the joke.

Still a no on the sources front then.

How quickly communication with you becomes tedious. Time to start using my demanure button again.

Edited by adamstrags

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I think it is extremely unlikely that difussers will be declared illegal. That would cause too much of the turmoil and bad PR for FIA. Lately they seem to respond to that since MM is going for reelection in October.

I think diffuser will be declared legal and the rest of the field will have them ready for Barcelona or even Bahrain. If I were managing F1 team that failed to recognize loophole I would start developing new difusser immediatelly after latest test in Barcelona when FIA unofficially declined to say it is illegal. Waiting for Melbourne was bad judgement.

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I think it is extremely unlikely that difussers will be declared illegal. That would cause too much of the turmoil and bad PR for FIA. Lately they seem to respond to that since MM is going for reelection in October.

I think diffuser will be declared legal and the rest of the field will have them ready for Barcelona or even Bahrain. If I were managing F1 team that failed to recognize loophole I would start developing new difusser immediatelly after latest test in Barcelona when FIA unofficially declined to say it is illegal. Waiting for Melbourne was bad judgement.

I think that's correct. Kubica will get a new car for Barcelona - with new diffuser.

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These decisions rarely apply retrospectively unless a team has blatantly broke the rules. Since this is a case of interpretation, plus the fact the FIA is partly to blame for not sorting it out sooner, plus the fact that they were deemed legal by stewards in those races...

It's likely they will be allowed to continue running them, if not, then I imagine the results will remain unchanged. Nobody who is running the sport wants to ruin the Brawn fairytale.

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Yes it should....and not to mention FIA being on unstable ground with how heavy handed they may be with "further sanctions" over McLaren. If Macca is excluded from the championship...should Williams, Brawn and Toyota be banned for the next two years? One is an on-the-spot attempt at getting points, the other around a years worth of development and testing of an illegal part to gain an adavantage.

If FIA intends punishing McLaren, expect the diffusers to be deemed legal. To punish McLaren by exclusion from the championship sets a precedent so low, that drivers will get banned for half a season for jumping the lights.

Watch this space, as they say.

I don't think their points will be taken away...I guess Ferrari's points were not taken away after movable floor and flexy wing issue was found...please correct me if I am wrong..

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They weren't.

So I don't see why the diffuser gang would be punished. Another reason why they were not punished may be because there were other teams too involved(as rumoured), especially the flexy wings.

Problem solved.

Edited by abbas_gear

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Understanding irony's never been your strong suit has it.

First to Monza

Then to me

Indeed - you are the joke.

Still a no on the sources front then.

How quickly communication with you becomes tedious. Time to start using my demanure button again.

Boy, that dictionary ****up of yours really, really got to you. Talk about bitter.

Amusing, though.

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I think it is extremely unlikely that difussers will be declared illegal. That would cause too much of the turmoil and bad PR for FIA. Lately they seem to respond to that since MM is going for reelection in October.

I think diffuser will be declared legal and the rest of the field will have them ready for Barcelona or even Bahrain. If I were managing F1 team that failed to recognize loophole I would start developing new difusser immediatelly after latest test in Barcelona when FIA unofficially declined to say it is illegal. Waiting for Melbourne was bad judgement.

Totally agree with you there wapi

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These decisions rarely apply retrospectively unless a team has blatantly broke the rules. Since this is a case of interpretation, plus the fact the FIA is partly to blame for not sorting it out sooner, plus the fact that they were deemed legal by stewards in those races...

It's likely they will be allowed to continue running them, if not, then I imagine the results will remain unchanged. Nobody who is running the sport wants to ruin the Brawn fairytale.

But they are outside of the rules in some respects. The concept _might_ be a loophole (suspension of belief required) but they exceed allowed dimensions as written in the regulations.

Not that any of this matters...

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But they are outside of the rules in some respects. The concept _might_ be a loophole (suspension of belief required) but they exceed allowed dimensions as written in the regulations.

Not that any of this matters...

The stewards judged them legal at the races, the stewards judge from a technical viewpoint so obviously in their opinion they were okay in terms of dimensions. That's an objective judgement, they either are, or aren't.

Now it's up to WMSC to look at what the regulations intend and see if they are not in the spirit of them from that point of view. That's a subjective judgement.

We_shall_see.

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Ok, I haven't posted in a long time, mainly just reading but deciding not to post. I have to post about this though because so far I have not seen one correct explanation of the situation.

First, The WMSC is independent of the FIA, that means that whatever they rule must be and there is no influence Max or anybody else can put on them. Kind of like a Supream court where the judges are almost sequestered. What this means is that all bets are off on whether or not they get banned. That is why the big teams are all already working on new defusers.

Secondly, about whether or not the results will be changed. The answer to that is YES. This is not because the FIA wants to hand the championship to Ferrari like some people will say. The results will be changed because of how the complaint was lodged. Unlike the mass dampers which the FIA decided to outlaw by themselves (such a decision is not retroactive), the decision in front of the WMSC is an appeal of a stewards' decision (any decision is retroactive). That means that if the WMSC declares them illegal they overrule the stewards' decision at the GP. Therefore the defusers are illegal at the race and so the results will change to show the standings of all the legally entered cars.

Thirdly, how will a decision of illegality effect further races? That is a tricky question. If the defusers are declared illegal then the three teams will not be allowed to run them at the Chinese GP. But since the GP is so close the three teams could be allowed to run but would not score points so as to retain a full grid.

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